GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => China Gate => : rr_shooter October 06, 2008, 02:52:48 PM
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I'm taking apart my first B3 and starting on the trigger. It's somewhat difficult for me to visualize the operation of the trigger because of the stamped housing. Does anyone know of a diagram that shows the engagement of the sear with the piston and the contact surfaces between the trigger and the sear? Or, maybe just a figure that shows which surfaces need to be polished in order to smooth the trigger operation?
Thanks in advance for the help!
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Here ya go............
Jeff
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Excellent - that's just what I needed. I'm always amazed at the depth of knowledge of this forum's members (and their desire to help out others).
Thanks, Jeff!
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Glad I could help Paul....
I tuned the 3 B-3's I own,,, they came out great. There's a ton of tuning info available for them, just do a search and you'll be amazed at the info you'll find. I'll be looking forward to your future posts on that shooter.... Keep us up to date.....
Jeff
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Hey Jeff,
What does polishing those trigger locations with 600 grit sandpaper help? Does it make the trigger action more smooth and repeatable?
You've probably mentioned this before, but are you using the oem spring or some other custom version? I'm getting ready to order a spring from Mcari for my broken TF97 so I'm considering one for my B3 also so I was thinking he might have a good alternative for the B3 too.
I agree this is a great BB. Lots of helpful information and people don't seem to get their knickers in a knot over silly things.
tight groups!
Don
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Smoothing the contact points of the trigger and sear give's a smoother and more predictable pull. There's a B3,B4 kit that comes with a replacement mainspring which is a nice replacement for the B3. South Summit in our MALL still carries them I think.:) Ed
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Is the spring in that kit any better? Stronger, longer, easier to cock, anything like that or is just a replacement for one breaking?
Don
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Basically the same spring a little longer which gives a little more punch. The cocking is about the same too other then the smooth cocking of a tuned one verses a box stock one. Ed
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OK, tks for feedback. I'll keep that in mind.
Well, now that I have a broken TF97 spring that broke near the end I may have a suitable replacement that gives a similar ammount of more punch. I'll have to see if it will fit without too much hacking and grinding.
I suspect that one of the reasons my B3 is a bit more accurate than my tf97 is just because the oem B3 spring has less punch, less than 500fps based on my pellet drop calculator.
Acuuracy/power, hard to get both but fun to try.
regards
don
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My B3 when new.
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8936/b31iz2.th.jpg) (http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b31iz2.jpg)
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New try:
I tought to tell mods I have made to my .177 B3-1.
I think that first thing was to hone sylinder. I used sand paper wrapped around some cloth that was wrapped around drill bit. Nowadays I use brake sylinder hone for that job. I also made transferport little larger with 4,5 mm drill bit. Barrel needed some bending to get scope adjusted. There was also some burr in chamber end of barrel, which made pellet setting more difficult than I wanted.
Then I got idea to chop the barrel. Original pipe was 45 cm long and I took off 20 cm. Velocities was within a few meter/second before and after. Because of dieseling, it is hard to say exact numbers. Anyway, Beeman Kodiak extra heavy shoots about 150 m/s.
Here is pictures when B3 was new and after cutting.
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/8936/b31iz2.th.jpg) (http://'http://img215.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b31iz2.jpg')
(http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/5769/kiikarillazd4.th.jpg) (http://'http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kiikarillazd4.jpg')
(http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/5107/pict00882nz0.th.jpg) (http://'http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict00882nz0.jpg')
(http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2316/pict00182kb4.th.jpg) (http://'http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict00182kb4.jpg')
Top quality muzzle:
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/3295/pict00032rj7.th.jpg) (http://'http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict00032rj7.jpg')
After some shooting I noticed interesting feature. First shot of the day was about 10 cm apart from the others (distance 25 meters). I figured out it was due barreltime variations, because velocity difference didn´t explain that. It was time to replace leather seal with synthetic one.
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4298/b3nopeudet2od1.th.jpg) (http://'http://img444.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b3nopeudet2od1.jpg')
I used seal from qf-2 sercive kit and added washer or two to both end of the spring.
(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9952/img16522wa5.th.jpg) (http://'http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16522wa5.jpg') (http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5442/img16572hy1.th.jpg) (http://'http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16572hy1.jpg')
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9979/img16592bm0.jpg) (http://'http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16592bm0.jpg')
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5938/img16602jm3.jpg) (http://'http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16602jm3.jpg')
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/5641/img16652tc5.th.jpg) (http://'http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16652tc5.jpg')
(http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/3783/img16802xh4.jpg) (http://'http://img355.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img16802xh4.jpg')
As a result velocity is now constant from the first shot and went up significantly. Here is picture, shot with 7 grain Geco. Both string first of the day.
(http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/3194/b3nopeudetmuoviha1.jpg) (http://'http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=b3nopeudetmuoviha1.jpg')
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If you get into any modifications, DO not make the same mistake I made with one of mine. I wanted more volume, so I ground the top of the piston about 1/8 of an inch, liked the increase in FPS so I then ground it 1/4 more. This weakened the top of the piston to the point that after one of the cocking cycles, it auto-fired by blowing out the piston top. Now, IF that happened while I was still loading I would have lost the ends of at least 2 fingers, no amount of safely holding the cocking lever through the whole loading process would have prevented it. Luckily, it did it after the loading cycle and while pointed at the ground. DO NOT GRIND the end of piston even a little. This was a bad tip I saw somewhere that I carried to an extreme.
That being said, his mod above works (different versions of it are out there, some with coins instead of washers, why, who knows, those washers are cheaper!) That being said, a good power-plant "blueprinting" ie: Tune, with one of those replacement QF2 springs makes these into sweet cheap shooters. Here are two of mine, both Industry and South Summit versions, that are "Safe" to shoot!
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Scanb3 -
What washer sizes did you use to make the mount for the synthetic seal?
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Thanks for the pictures of the switch from leather to synthetic piston seal. I see the same behavior with my B3 leather seal. I have two, .177, .22. The 22 is from south summit, has the synthetic seal. Shoots very good. The 177 is a toolsnow with the leather seal. Even with soaking in neatsfoot oil, roughing up and expansion washer mod, not as consistent as the 22 with synthetic seal. Easy to switch back too. Need to get a chrony someday.
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I have some of them in my garage behind ice, snow and darkness and I am in pyjamas. I will check dimensions some day, but I believe they are M5 and M6 fender washers.
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Hey John,
Where did you get the buttpad that you have on the Industry Brand in the picture?
I'm looking to add a little length to my B3 and that looks to be perfect.
THanks,
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That, sir, is the buttplate off a Gamo Big Cat. I have a Big Cat that I wanted a wood stock for, so I bought one from Gamo, the 440. Fits like a glove (some said that plastic cover needs tweaked, but I had no issue). So....look at the one on your Big Cat synthetic stock, look familiar? One and the same. I sanded off the carved in "tread" in the B3 wood stock and added this. As I was refinishing the B3 stock at the time, I was able to do some better match up. Still not a perfect fit at the end, but close enough for my tastes.
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Great picture!!!!
I got mine apart and all lubed up but every time I put it back together it won't cock. Goes about half way and acts like something is stopping it from going further.
I know I'm missing something in the procedure but can't figure it out. I've had the trigger in and out in and out and it seems simple but I guess not to me.
Any ideas??????
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d153/ronbeaux/BBQ%20stuff/bbq%202/bbq%203/DSC02207.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d153/ronbeaux/BBQ%20stuff/bbq%202/bbq%203/DSC02208.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d153/ronbeaux/BBQ%20stuff/bbq%202/bbq%203/DSC02209.jpg)
Did I miss a step?? EVERY SINGLE PART is back on the gun so none flew out the door when taking it down.
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B's they love to be tuned and can be smooth and accurate for such a cheap shooter. Done a few myself hehehe. One of my B gal's below, she's had lot's of TLC inside and out. Ed
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Never mind!!! Turns out I was doing everything right. The reason it was only cocking half way was because the side screws that hold the stock on the barrel were too long. Now these were that same screws I took out, but I remember them being very loose. The reason they were loose is because they were too D******** long and they knew it when they shipped it!!
Works perfect now with a little Dremel cut off action on them!.
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Check the cocking arm where it slides back and forth in the slot, it might be catching on something in there. Also one thing that I came across was that the front stock screw's where in so close to the cocking arm that they were catching the cocking arm. I figured it out , flipped it over and watched what was going on. Keep us posted buddy we'll figure it out. Ed
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Read above. You called it. Great minds think alike!
This baby shoots nice and smooth and quiet! Will poke holes through and through a beer can at 10M... In the dark I might add.
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Great you found the problem. :) One of my B's did the same thing and I just cut em back with a dremel, cleaned up the thread's and was good to go.Ed
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Run some electrical tape across one side of the trigger housing, it will hold those pins in and won't show up when together like some tape of another color can. Ever since I bought the pair of Beemans that do not have bear traps, I've removed them from my others so I can de-cock them. The only thing they do is prevent you from shooting during the cocking cycle, so as long as your keeping fingers off the trigger, it won't hurt safety and it is nice to be able to do that without shooting.
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Ron,
Though I lack the experience that John has, I will agree with him. Removing the bear trap, if only temporarily while tuning and disassembling and reassembling, definitely made things smoother. You simply remove that short flathead screw, the piece it holds in place (with the two short springs), that sliding bar that slides back into the trigger when cocking, and the forwardmost pin in the trigger group. I removed mine and never put it back.
But, as John has said, be careful. That mechanism blocks the trigger when the action is open so that the trigger cannot be pulled causing the cylinder to slam forward, seperating you from your fingers as you load a pellet. If you remove the bear trap (or even if you don't!), make sure you have a firm grip on the cocking lever handle AND that the buttstock is under control and cannot slip and swing off your hip suddenly, closing the action.
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Dimensions:
M5: 14,9 mm x 1,2 mm
M6: 17,9 mm x 1,6 mm
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Thanks!
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And yes my B-3 has been totally tuned and moded and it shoots hard and pretty accurate with RWS Superdomes. Ed turned us all on to how neat it is to tune a B-3 and there are hundreds of mods you can do inside and out on them..:)
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rr_shooter - 10/6/2008 7:52 PM
I'm taking apart my first B3 and starting on the trigger. It's somewhat difficult for me to visualize the operation of the trigger because of the stamped housing. Does anyone know of a diagram that shows the engagement of the sear with the piston and the contact surfaces between the trigger and the sear? Or, maybe just a figure that shows which surfaces need to be polished in order to smooth the trigger operation?
Thanks in advance for the help!
Be careful though, foreign airgun blog posted this story. Pics>words X 1000.
http://www.airguns.pl/porady-sprzet-obcinaczka-palcow
Went off because of a loose screw :o.
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I have thought trigger mods to B3 now and then. One day I figured out this. If angles in piston and sear (is it sear) are changed like in picture, we reduce load towards trigger (force vector Fd). In my understanding that mean less friction between trigger and sear and that way lighter trigger. Is this old idea and is it already tried?
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hmmm...with that design, would the sear be able to take me load safely? ed and i are trying something in a few weeks...
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ow ow ow! Wonder if this happens alot?
Copy of translation the last part only "its not that good but you get the idea".... quote (It has long been in the shooters wiatrówkowych warned of the dangers associated with the use of Chinese. The level of performance, quality of materials used, archaic technology and the absolute lack of any form of technical control of the ghostly copy strzeladel wind. Do this as you can see, the dangerous. All we can get after contact with the to shooting and contempt for the owners wiatrówek.. Unfortunately, the profit is the most important, here, now and at once - because none of the importers is not even a guide tries to count how many thousands of people will never reach the shotgun and you can not convince that this is an easy, enjoyable sport.
Interestingly, almost identical incident occurred some time ago in the U.S., as well as interesting windcheater B3.
For clarification. Windbreaker B-3 is exactly the same as:
- B4 - B4
- XS-B3 - XS-B3
- XS-B4 - XS-B4
- Industry Brand B3 - Industry Brand B3
- Industry Brand B4 - Industry Brand B4
- Sea Lion B3 - Sea Lion B3
- Sea Lion B4 - Sea Lion B4
- Norconia Germany Master - Master Norconia Germany
- Magnum Sport - Magnum Sports
- Norkonia Germano B3 - Norkonia Germano B3
- Zenith B4 - Zenith B4
- Blazer Ranger - Ranger Blazer
- Smith Weson model 290 - Smith Weson model 290
- Lider 44 - Leader of 44
and many, many other names for the same product Industry Brand. Wystarczy popatrzec na wyglad - jest nie do pomylenia. Just look at the appearance - it is not confusion.
For your own safety and for the so-called. saint advised to avoid any peace wiatrówek B3, regardless of their name and the tale told by the sellers.)
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Magnum - 3/6/2009 3:47 PM
ow ow ow! Wonder if this happens alot?
Copy of translation the last part only "its not that good but you get the idea".... quote (It has long been in the shooters wiatrówkowych warned of the dangers associated with the use of Chinese. The level of performance, quality of materials used, archaic technology and the absolute lack of any form of technical control of the ghostly copy strzeladel wind. Do this as you can see, the dangerous. All we can get after contact with the to shooting and contempt for the owners wiatrówek.. Unfortunately, the profit is the most important, here, now and at once - because none of the importers is not even a guide tries to count how many thousands of people will never reach the shotgun and you can not convince that this is an easy, enjoyable sport.
Interestingly, almost identical incident occurred some time ago in the U.S., as well as interesting windcheater B3.
For clarification. Windbreaker B-3 is exactly the same as:
- B4 - B4
- XS-B3 - XS-B3
- XS-B4 - XS-B4
- Industry Brand B3 - Industry Brand B3
- Industry Brand B4 - Industry Brand B4
- Sea Lion B3 - Sea Lion B3
- Sea Lion B4 - Sea Lion B4
- Norconia Germany Master - Master Norconia Germany
- Magnum Sport - Magnum Sports
- Norkonia Germano B3 - Norkonia Germano B3
- Zenith B4 - Zenith B4
- Blazer Ranger - Ranger Blazer
- Smith Weson model 290 - Smith Weson model 290
- Lider 44 - Leader of 44
and many, many other names for the same product Industry Brand. Wystarczy popatrzec na wyglad - jest nie do pomylenia. Just look at the appearance - it is not confusion.
For your own safety and for the so-called. saint advised to avoid any peace wiatrówek B3, regardless of their name and the tale told by the sellers.)
Probably not THAT often. This Blog has a strong and unnatural aversion to the Chinese made products. They go over the top. Maybe they have only shot the old ones, not the newer styles like the B26-28. Probably a good idea to do a tune+lok-tite on the screws just to make sure nothing comes loose before shooting.
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70GTvert - 2/22/2009 10:22 AM
This weakened the top of the piston to the point that after one of the cocking cycles, it auto-fired by blowing out the piston top. Now, IF that happened while I was still loading I would have lost the ends of at least 2 fingers, no amount of safely holding the cocking lever through the whole loading process would have prevented it.
Do I understand it right? You mean that holding the cocking lever would not have saved you fingers. Cocking shoe is connected to cylinder and cylinder pushes "all stuff" back. So, I think that holdin the cocking lever saves in pistonfailures too.
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I ground down the top of the piston to the point where the top weld around the top of the piston was compromised. When cocked it suddenly sheared off the top of the piston with the seal and shot forward while the rear part of the piston was still in the cocked position. So yes, fingers could be gone even if you were still holding the lever. I got lucky. Instead it just fired the pellet without warning.
IF I were to do anything like this again, knowing how this piston was built I would have cut the the top of the piston off about 1 inch down then removed the 1/2 inch of material that I had ground down to remove on the earlier attempt, than welded the two parts back together with my MIG. It sure looked like it was still together, but I had removed too much of the material from the factory weld the way I had initially done this.
Just to let you know, I was able to get about 50 of so rounds off before it let loose, I was getting upper 700's (around 780-795) prior to failure.
Oh, and there are other ways this could still chop your fingers off while in a proper cocking hold. The sear could let loose, same thing would happen. Don't mess too much with that whole area on these cheap guns. Play with springs, seals, lubes and debur..