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Gateway To Product Reviews => Non-Productive Posts => : douglas george February 07, 2009, 05:54:35 PM
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Today the weather was fantastic in Kansas. No Wind! And it was 70 degrees f. So I went to the Ourback shooting range, and did some 100 yard air rifle shooting as the sun was going down. I fired my 22 RWS 460 (3X9X44mm, objective focus 30mm scope) with Soupr points, and Beeman Kodiak pellets. I started at 50 yards, and the rifle was right on. At 100 yards, I had to hold about 6 inches high, zeroed at 25 yards, bench rest shooting. I could get 4 to 5 inch groups...ok I guess. I had done better with my RWS 48 last summer. Next I shot my RWS 350 Magnum 177 aitr rifle with Beeman Kodiaks, and RWS R-10 match pellets. Here is the surprise! My 100 yard zero with Kodiak was the same as my 25 yard zero. So Point blank for that gun must be 25 yards, and 100 yards. I was shooting off the bench, and the gun has a RWS 6X42 30mm parallax adjustable scope. My first group with the Kodiak pellet was just at 2 inches! Three shots in the 10 ring, one in the nine. I fired several groups, all off the bench, all 2 inch or a little under. If held correctly...the RWS 350 is very accurate! But you must be very consistant. With the R 10 pellet the gun shot about 2 inches lower...two inch groups! Last after it was getting dark. I fired my RWS 54 177 gun with an RWS 4X32 objective focus scope. This one shot 9 inches low with Beeman Kodiaks (25 yard zero). And the groups were just a little smaller than with the 350 Magnum. Just a little under two inches. It was dark enough that I had to feel which end of the pellet was the skirt, to load. But the scope let in lots of light...it was easy to hold! And the recoil less action made this air rifle very accurate! It was easy to hold...and to get it to group! I had no flyers at all with the RWS model 54. I now know why it is called the "Air King" by RWS. Several rifle shooters were here with me, and they all wanted to fire the air rifles. The pellets made a loud "thunk" when the hit the target stand...it was 1/4 inch white plastic, with the target (100 yard sight in target) stapled to it. All shots penatrated the plastic board. I only shot the RWS 460 at 50 yards, at a cardboard target stand, and you could hear two quick "thunk, thunks" as the pellet hit the cardboard, then the backstop at 100 yards! This was fun!!!
So Guys You really can shoot air rifles well at 100 yards! If anyone has a RWS 54...try it! The Kodiaks seem to have the best balistic shape, and they shot best. R-10's shot just as good of groups...but low. I was very happy, and before it got too dark...sometimes I could see the pellet as a black dot in the scope...rising, and falling...they got to the targets fast! This is what surprised the other shooters. What else did we shoot? I shot my CZ 452, and we all shot a couple of rounds out of the Armalite AR-50, 50 BMG, 750 grain Hornady A-Max 225grs of Hodgen 50BMG powder. So what a range of shooting...air rifles...then the big "50".
Douglas George
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JEALOUSY TIMES 4
of your +70F temperatures, all your RWS air rifles, your shooting skills and the shooting distances you have to shoot with!!!!! Incredible shooting....congratulations. I think if I had those distances to shoot with....I'd be lucky to get plate-sized groups!!!!
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"gamo2hammerli: It's warm again today...so I'm going shooting again. Shooting the Magnum air rifle at 100 yards is not hard...off the bench. The RWS guns are heavy. My RWS 54 with the scope is 11 pounds! Maybe thats why they are stable, because if you hold steady, have good trigger control...you will hit! I don't think the Whisper can do it...try and see, you might be surprised. The Whisper shoots real well at 25 yards. My RWS 350 with the scope is 10 lbs. I was surprised a barrel break gun could be so accurate!
Douglas George
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Ran into this awhile back:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA-1X3jGi1M
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Sorry, Doug, but it's time to reign in the fantasy. There is NO WAY an RWS 350 that's zeroed at 25 yards will have the same POI at 100. Even with Kodiaks, and forget R 10's. I'm not even sure a wad cutter can fly 100 yards, forget about sub 2" groups once it gets there. I'm pretty sure even your, probably fictional, AR-50 isn't capable of a trajectory like that. You've been spouting off a lot of nonsense since you showed up here, and it's about time you got called on it. I'm pretty sure it's a safe bet that the majority of the people on this forum can separate fantasy from reality, question is, can you? It doesn't look that way from where I'm sitting. And when's the last time you saw a college professor spell college, "collage"? If you're going to spend your time making stuff up, at least learn enough to make your fantasies believable. And in the meantime, please stop wasting our time.
Dave
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A 21 ft-lb kodiak (which is what the 460 will produce) is doing about 670ft/sec at the muzzle. With a standard 1.5" scope-to-bore-line setup, Chairgun computes you would have to be 8-3/4" high at 25 to reach a 13-1/4" midpoint trajectory at 55, to then drop back down to zero at 100.
Similarly, a rifle zero'd at 25 would have to have ~ 34" hold-over to hit at 100 w/ Kodiaks.
A Crossman Premeir goes out faster (~820fps) for that same 21 ft-lbs, and only requires a 20" hold-over at 100 when zeroed at 25. (Surprise!)
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Doug,, enjoyed reading your post,,,, we have been having some GREAT weather here in Coastal SC also,,,75 deg today!! I mostly limit my airgun "plinking" to about 50 yrds. I have even gotten 3/4" groups with my Diana 54/22 cal. (Bench) I did however recently at my Moms house do alot of 100 yrd plinking across the lake with my Gene Curtis/CDT Diana Panther 177. I was amazed at how often I could hit a small stump at that distance!! (about 6"diameter,about 10" above water level). On a really calm day,, I swear I could hold "dinner plate" accuracy with my old Panther at 100 yrds. Im not saying I could hold an 8" group all the time,,but,,, Im sayin there are ALOT of pellets embedded (Just slightly) in that stump. :p Im glad you had fun,,,,& its always fun to get the "powder burnin" crowd interested in airguns,, my hats off to Ya on that one!! I do know for a fact,,,a Diana 350 sighted in @ 25 yrds will "intersect" again WAY before 100 yrds,,(I have owned 2 of em) (Depending on cal. & velocity much more likely around 40 yrds,,give or take). I think maybe you forgot to mention you may have been "holding over" (mill dots). :o Hey man,,, I have done alot of stuff with my airguns that most people would never believe!! 8) Keep shootin Doug,,,,,Tim.
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I'm not going to call on this one. There's a guy who showed me some of his 100 yard shots over on the Yellow and they were, at most, 2". I do believe he was getting MOA, though. Oh, did I say it was not with a 460.........nor a 350...............but a B/S .20 cal w/8 pumps wearing an older Weaver K4 or thereabouts. So, it CAN be done. Of course, the old B/S triggers contribute a great deal to that kind of shooting.
As soon as the weather breaks, I'll dig out my Streaks, scope 'em and give it a try. Ditto the 54 in .177. That thing is WAY to hot for the 10m basement range!
BTW, a .50BMG has negligible drop at 100 yards. It may not even be 12" at 1,000 yards.
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I have got to say that the 50bmg has a lot more drop than you might expect......see here http://www.snipercentral.com/50bmg.htm more than 18 inches just from 900 to 1000 yards and a 92inch overall arc between 0 and 1000 when zeroed at 1000 yards.
I also doubt the 25 and 100 yard matching zeros.
Martin D. White
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For what it's worth, here's a quick calc of a 50 cal/750gr FMJ Hornady going out at BMG velocities. It puts its pant legs on one at a time -- like any other cartidge -- but with about half the mid-range apogee of the better .30 caliber 30-06 match loads.
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I wasn't calling BS on the possibility of shooting a sub 2" group at 100 yards, even with a springer. But claiming that, plus doing it with wad cutters, plus the 25/100 yard same zero claim finally tipped the whole thing to the ridiculous for me. Add in some of the other questionable claims he's made in other posts, and I had to call BS. The purpose of this forum is to teach and learn, not to indulge in flights of fancy for the sole purpose of impressing a bunch of strangers. That's the kind of behavior you expect from pre-adolescents, not from someone that claims to teach at the college level. It seems there are some who think I may have come down too hard, I've gotten one PM to that effect already. I disagree, and stand by what I said before. I think it's worth noting that the one person I haven't heard from is Douglas. Later.
Dave
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Gents....I just finished reading the group of responses to this one, and I'm entertained…LOL
Now, here's my 2 cents on the subject.
I currently own 3 air rifles which one of them is a Webley 177. Cal Springer (Dominator-8) that has about 50+ lbs of cocking effort. It shoots extremely hard and accurate from 50 to 75 yards at best for a Springer...and I know it doesn't do 100 yards on its best day!
However, I just got my first BBB custom DAQ. (45 cal) 457 PCP pistol with a 23 inch barrel/stock and it will do 100 to 125+ yards, all day long... pushing lead bullets or balls ranging from 141g, up to 255g on a 3500 psi fill. (Note: fps 1200+!)
Also, I have a tuned DragonSlayer 50 cal that I love dearly...and it only shoots 176g round balls on the level to 65 to 75 yards at best.
(Note: It's currently back at the tuner getting a new 26 inch barrel replacement from the standard 20 inch one, a caliber change from 50 cal. to 45 cal. and a new heavy duty spring on the hammer to increase fps power. Once the updates are done, it will do 100+ yards and should be somewhat close to the power of my DAQ 457 as well.)
I stated all of this to indicate that I would be very impressed to see a Springer shoot 100+ yards and accurately. For the record, I have a few buddies that own RWS springer rifles and theirs are not even close to the power of my Webley-S.
B
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Well, those are some pretty strong shooters but it's not about power. There are some springers that are capable of decent accuracy at 100 yards. There's a guy on the Diana Werke, Johannis, who shoots his 48 against PCP's at 100 meters over in the Netherlands. Does he win the match? No, but he still must feel competitive to some degree since he's hanging in there.
The thing I find funny is how serious some shooters are about the mystical 100 yard mark. Ok, it's a good test for a firearm but air guns aren't, generally, designed to perform MOA at that distance. To be able to do even two MOA at 100 yards is a pretty good feat. Keep it real, ya'll.
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Just to back Dave up - there's NO WAY you could achieve the same zero at 25 and 50 yds. Even with kodiaks fired at 950 fps, you're going to have at least a 5 inch drop at 100yds. Can't argue with science.....
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On the lighter side of all these picking!!! don't forget to CLICK YOUR HEALS to make the mystical 100 yards shoot, just ask Dorothy.. |:0]
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I agree with Dave on this one. I have a tuned RWS 54 in 22 caliber. Had a rocket engineer help me with harmonics on my barrel. Unbelievable accuracy up to 50 yards. No way at a 100 yards. Would have to be a perfect day, perfect pellet, perfect springer and above all a perfect marksman. It's pretty hard to put those perfect situation's all in one day. I call BS on this one. P
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Ok everyone, Dave has made a good point on Doug's thread. I support Dave's opinion as well as the other members here but lets just move on now..:)
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Lets all remember the design and physical performance limits of air rifles, regardless of powerplant. Air rifles are designed to be effective, accurate, efficient tools at 10 - 50 yds. Yes, decent 100 yard accuracy is possible with the right equipment, shooter and conditions. The biggest limitation is the ballistic characterists of diablo pellets. They pretty much have the B.C. of a rock. Diablo pelletes shed velocity and energy very quickly and are dramatically affected by wind. Nothing at all wrong with trying out the long range capabilities of any air rifle, as long as it in the right venue, ie. at a safe shooting range.
The biggest thing I'd like everyone to take from this thread is that it's OK to disagree with an idea or concept, as long as you do it respectfully. Attack ideas, not people.
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Dear David: I don't care for your attitude!@ I challange you to a dual...at 100 yards! With spring powered air-rifles! I will use my RWS 54! I shot at 100 yards and enjoyed it! You shot off your mouth! I posted this because I thought it would be fun, and normal guys would enjoy it! I have been shooting for a long time!@ Maybe longer than you! I have worked as both a rifle, and pistol instructor...I shoot bench rest, I spent $150 yesterday on Hodgon powder for the AR-50...something you know nothing about! You are correct...I cannot spell very well! I have had this dislexic problem since I was a little kid! You have *_*_*_*_*_*ed me off. I will delete all posts, and never say anything again! Hell I might dispose of all the GD springers...and only shoot PCP! I have good friends in the PCP world.
Edited by Gene Curtis