GTA

General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : KK0605 December 03, 2009, 02:41:37 AM

: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 02:41:37 AM
Scope Rails. This is for discussing which you like best and why. Reading Tom Gaylord's evaluation of them, he said that dovetail are standard, Weaver are NOT for air guns, and Picatinny are the best. Chime in with your set up and why you like it!

Tom's Eval: http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/11/picatinny-weaver-dovetail-scope-bases.html
: RE: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 03:59:00 AM
I am looking to get the Hawke Picatinny rail and the Burris Extreme Tactical rings. Both good priced, and I know Burris will be great. Hard to find a 11mm Dovetail to Picatinny rail, Hawke seems to be one of the only ones who make them anymore. I like Picatinny because it has exact measurements, Weaver does not. And Dovetail has not locking groves to hold the rings like Picatinny does.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 03, 2009, 04:22:09 AM
Why are Weaver "Not for airguns"?
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 04:51:07 AM
According to Tom Gaylord, (not me; I havnt used them before)

"Weaver mounts don't work on airguns

Weaver mounts originated just before 1950. They were the first attempt to provide standardized scope mounts for rifles. They feature an integral recoil block to keep the rings in one place. Before Weaver mounts, rifles were most often drilled and tapped for small setscrews that sometimes snapped under heavy recoil. The Weaver base has a 3.8mm cross-key slot that accepts special Weaver keys located on the bottom of all Weaver rings. Weaver bases are great for firearms but too wide for air gun rings. Also, the locations of the cross slots are not standardized, so Weaver bases work best with two-piece rings."

I like the Picatinny because they have  exact measure slots, so you can interchange rings and not be afraid of them not matching perfectly. Because Weaver does not have exact measurements, the slots might not fit certain rings.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 03, 2009, 05:02:09 AM
Seems the objection is that the objection is the base is too wide for airguns (11mm dovetails), and I'd have to agree -- but I use a Dovetail to weaver adapter, and it seems to be working just fine. Picatinny would be a preference because there are more slots, but I don't see anyone selling that option in an adjustable mount.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: airgunandy December 03, 2009, 05:09:00 AM
Why don't most rimfire rifles have Weaver rails? Whatever that reason is, is probably why Weavers aren't on airguns.
I'm guessing that since .22 rimfire has little recoil they don't typically need Weaver-type scope mounts. Traditionally, airguns have been perceived as having lower power than .22 rimfire and can also get by with dovetail rails too. High power springers are an exception to that. I'm not positive, but I think the USA is one of the few countries that do not regulate the power output of airguns, which probably means the majority of guns sold around the world are low enough power that they can get by without Weaver or Picatinny rails. At least that's my guess!

I like the flexibility that dovetail rails gives as far was ring placement and eye relief adjustability, but Picatinny rails would be just as flexible and a lot more stable. I think I've seen some of the new super power springers come from the factory with Weaver or Picatinny rails.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 05:10:54 AM
Picatinny is the rail that the military has been using because it has exact measurements. Some of the nicest rings on the planet (Leupold Mark 4) use picatinny. More groves, yes, for more detailed positioning. But you can use any picatinny rings with any picatinny rail and be fine. Because weaver does not have exact measurements, you might find a few that do not work with certain types of weaver rings. Are they both good? Yes. They are both just fine. They will both work. And yes it is hard to find an adjustable mount because most guns that use picatinny have the rail built on to it. Hawke sells a "Weaver/Picatinny" rail. But weaver does not have precise measurements and picatinny does. So what size is the rail then???
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 05:13:35 AM
Picatinny has the extended rail also. That would give even better eye relief.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 03, 2009, 05:16:09 AM
If I get a weaver rail and a weaver mount, I'm betting they fit fine ;-) I see the other advantage of the picatinny, but, like I said, I don't see an adjustable and that was imperative to provide the solution I needed.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 03, 2009, 05:17:21 AM
If you look at this thread and the links there, you can see exactly what I got -- and I'll be taking pictures this evening...
: Found it! EDIT: Maybe not...
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 05:24:15 AM
I found a dovetail to picatinny ADJUSTABLE rail! The video says it is dovetail to picatinny. But site doesn't say.

Video Design: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4_UJQou_5o

Finished Product: http://www.killjoyindustries.com/products/adjustablepicatinnyrail.html

EDIT: Idea came out as dovetail to picatinny adjustable, but design changed and is now picatinny to picatinny adjustable! Why?!?!?!?
: RE: Found it! EDIT: Maybe not...
: airgunandy December 03, 2009, 07:20:27 AM
Oh, paintball! Yeah, you need a lot of elevation to longball paint. My son plays paintball. You may have to hold the marker at almost 45 degrees just to shoot 30 yards. That's where the adjustability of the mount comes in.
Might work for an extreme drooper mount for a breakbarrel!  :)

Is this something like you are looking for?
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_11mm_to_Weaver_Adapter_Adjustable/2401
: RE: Found it! EDIT: Maybe not...
: KK0605 December 03, 2009, 07:39:06 AM
Well, I wanted a adjustable dovetail to picatinny rail for my TF89, though this thread is just about your rail/ring setup. VERY hard to find a dovetail to picatinny rail, let alone adjustable. Why did they change the design? Now it is picatinny to picatinny, not what I want.
: RE: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: RedFeather December 03, 2009, 07:43:05 AM
Rimfires don't come with Weaver bases because the vast majority are grooved for "tip off" mounts. Unless the receivers are drilled and tapped for Weavers, it has to be done after market by a gunsmith. (Most centerfires do come d/t'd for bases due to their higher recoil levels. All centerfire bases are screwed on, BTW.) The Picatinny is great for military applications and to allow easy change of scopes/rings since it's like a one size fits all. But they are a bit utilitarian, even more so than Weavers. On a nicely finished custom gun, I find them to be a cosmetic detraction.
: RE: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 03:00:29 AM
Yes, I like them purely for the fact that they don't move and the rings can be taken off and put back on without losing zero.
: BKL Makes Weaver Adapter
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 03:18:57 AM
BKL makes a dovetail to weaver adapter. Its nice, with the 6 screws that hold it down. With hardly any picatinny adapters out, this might be a good 2nd option.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 03:27:33 AM
It is $45 for the adapter and it is not adjustable... The 6 screws are attractive, but I think the Hawke will stand up fine -- and the whole setup with rings is $30. I forgot to take pictures last night. Hopefully tonight!
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 04:08:09 AM
If I knew this would work I would get it. I don't need adjustable right now. And it is so low. It says 6 set screws, no gun smithing required. I could cut it down if it was too long. Price is ok for me.

https://www.rimfiretechnologies.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=15011&Show=ExtInfo
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 06:01:29 AM
The pictures do not make clear how that attaches. if you don't need any adjustable, looks like it'd be fine -- IF you can get it on.

I am guessing that the screws might push down a second piece that locks the base? I know I had trouble getting an 11mm dovetail rail to stay in place...

This could be a 'prettier' solution...
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 06:15:37 AM
I'm guessing that the screws go into Marlin specific holes that are drilled at the factory. Another let down!
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 06:21:05 AM
I am tempted to put together a design and see how much it would cost to create a prototype...
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 06:23:36 AM
That prototype on the video was perfect, if it had kept the dovetail base. It was picatinny, adjustable, and heavy duty. It could have been lower though.  If you made one, I would definitely buy one.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: airgunandy December 04, 2009, 06:27:48 AM
Marlin model 60's don't have drilled and tapped holes in their receivers. The mount slides on from the front of the receiver and then the screws push against the receiver to lock the mount to the receiver's dovetail rail. It would seem the mount can only be used in a application where at least one end of the dovetails is open to allow the mount to slide on rather than clamp on. Don't think this mount will work on a springer unless it has a seperate scope rail attached to the tube.

Check this adapter. It says Weaver, but looks like Picatinny.
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_11mm_to_Weaver_Adapter_Adjustable/2401
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 06:32:04 AM
Well, the TF89 has somewhat open dovetails. They allow the rail to slide on. Yes, that adapter is for weaver/picatinny. But, what does weaver/picatinny mean? picatinny or weaver? a mix would not be the right size for either.

Maybe that Marlin rail would work. I'll see if they offer returns if it doesn't work...
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 06:39:30 AM
I believe the Weaver/Picatinny type just means that it is Picatinny but they can also accept Weaver mounts -- they just have to go on Picatinny spacing.

Technical specifications

In order to provide a stable platform, the rail should not flex as the barrel heats and cools; this is the purpose of the spacing slots: they give the rail considerable room to expand and contract lengthwise without distorting its shape. The Picatinny locking slot width is 0.206 in (5.232 mm). The spacing of slot centers is 0.394 in (10.008 mm) and the slot depth is 0.118 in (2.997 mm).[1] The only differences between the Picatinny rail and the similar Weaver rail are the size of these slots and the fact that they are standardized. Weaver rails have a slot width of 0.180 in (4.572 mm), but are not necessarily consistent in the spacing of slot centers.[2] Because of this, accessories can be and are designed to fit on both Weaver rails and Picatinny rails; but most Picatinny devices will not always fit on Weaver rails.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: KK0605 December 04, 2009, 06:46:37 AM
Yes, so I guess i should put some facts in order.....

1. Weaver/Picatinny COULD be a picatinny rail that fits Weaver also.
2. There are no Dovetail to Picatinny ONLY adjustable rails.
3. The Marlin rail fits the "tip-off"/dovetail rail that comes on Marlin's with drilling.

Here is something I found. http://www.leapers.com/production/prod_detail.php?mitem=Mounting%20Systems&level1=Airgun&level2=Rail%20Adaptor&itemno=MNT-DNTOWL&status=
Do RWS guns have there own style of dovetail???
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 06:51:33 AM
The rail on the RWS guns is raised rather than being a groved receiver. The lip on the end of the rail you show sets in front of the rail on the gun, and keeps the mount from sliding backwards.
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: thebookdoc December 04, 2009, 06:58:29 AM
BTW -- a product I tried but could not get to stay nicely on grooved receiver....

http://www.gamousa.com/product.aspx?product=Scope%20Rail&productID=246
: Re: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver
: RedFeather December 04, 2009, 07:06:55 AM
Maybe some Loctite or the ever-popular Rubber Cement (if you can still find it)? One thing about the Gamo rail - it's aluminum and bases/rings with stop pins have been known to egg the holes on more powerful Gamo springers.