GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : Oreo August 24, 2008, 02:12:08 AM
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Hey guys, I'm new here so please forgive if this comes up all the time.
What's the most powerful & accurate air rifle in .22 or .177 cal? I much prefer under-lever designs 'cause I don't trust break-barrels to hold zero to a scope- unless you guys tell me that's not an issue.
Thanks!
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Actually, it's NOT an issue. At least not from my experience. I bought my first rifle, a CFX, on that assumption, and later learned from first hand experience how wrong I was. So don't let that limit your choices. Also, if you want power, I assume you're intended use is hunting. A break barrel will always be quicker to load for a follow up shot.
Most powerful in no particular order:
Beeman Kodiak, RX-2
RWS 350, 48/52, 54, 460
Gamo 1250 (currently only available in .177, I believe)
Baikal MP 514(?), not sure if that's the right model number
I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that come to mind. Most are available in .177 and .22, some in .20 and .25. I believe all have a reputation for good accuracy, but inherent in the design is a high likelihood of hold sensitivity. Also keep in mind that power is relative. A powerful spring piston might get close to 30 fpe, and will be a real bear to cock and shoot well. My .177 AA S400E does 27 fpe with 16 gr. Eun Jins, my Talon can do over 50. And a .22 LR is 100 fpe +. Think about what you want an air rifle, or any rifle for that matter, to do, what your intended use is. As newbies, most of us get a case of magnumitis sooner or later. If you're new to air guns, I strongly advise making it later. You'll be much happier with a medium powered springer as a starter gun. The CFX I mentioned at the beginning I consider an excellent choice, but it will need additional work to make it really nice. For out of the box, the Beeman and RWS guns are hard to beat, and the cost ends up being comparable to a lesser gun with tune and trigger. Also remember, most of the velocity claims are sales hype, and are usually inflated over reality by 10-20% at least. So a "1000 fps" gun is really only going to do low to mid 800's with typical pellets. Finally, high velocity and pellets don't go together. Get close to Mach 1 with a pellet, and watch your accuracy go to hell. It's inherent in the design, think badminton birdie, it relies on the drag of the wide skirt to keep it stable.
I hope this was some help, and welcome to the GTA! If you have any more questions, you're in the right place. Later.
Dave
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It is actually Baikal MP513 that is the powerhouse. The 514 is the very futuristic looking top cocker, but velocities are like a third those of the more traditional MP513.
Walther Falcon Hunter (Hatsan 125) is a new entry in the springer mega-mag class. It shoots normal weight .22s in the 900 fps ranges.
Both are break barrels and I would agree with daved that this is not an issue, with a gun in good repair. Some might argue that break barrels are (or seem) a little safer than loading port designs, as they keep the fingers out of harm's way.
I suppose when you add "...and accurate" you would expect the German guns to excel. I have had great luck with the Baikal and jury is still out on the WFH, but they are built to a different standard, and price point. If an extra quarter inch tighter group is worth the extra $$$ that would be worth keeping in mind. OTOH, the Turkish and Russian barrels don't droop!
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I was originally looking at the RWS 460. Seems like a nice rifle, but there are a few on your list I haven't checked out yet.
What is "hold sensitivity"?
I'm just looking for a fun gun, so I want something I can satisfy my boyish craving for destruction with. Is there any way to hotrod these things to get more power from them? Can I put a stronger spring in or something like that? What about buying a .25cal version & swapping a .22cal barrel for more oomph?
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First & Foremost, WELCOME TO GTA! I had the Kodiak & Patriot as well as the 1250 HUNTER & HUNTER EXTREME,All extremeley powerefull & accurate,I prefer the THEOBEN ELIMINATOR/BEEMAN CROW MAGNUN, Two of the most powerfull break-barrel rifles you will find,both extremely accurate with a quick shot cycle,they operate with the Gas-Ram system oppose to the spring system....I had my WEBLEY PATRIOT converted to the THEOBEN GAS-RAM H.E. SYSTEM, it is a much nicer gun & easier to shoot accurate....I guess it's just a matter of taste....GOOD LUCK with your selection!
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Welcome to the GTA Forums Jason,
It's good to have you here, You have found A GREAT PLACE TO BE !
Now that you are part of the GTA Family, I hope to see you here often !
As for your question, If you give a price range, it would make it easier to reply too.
You can start with Chinese models, or go to a Gamo CFX, a fine and accurate rifle, then you could go to the fine Air Arms Under leavers or Beeman HW 77 or 97 air rifles ? So many air rifles, so little time and money !
I'm sure you will enjoy selecting a new air rifle underlever, and if you pick a price range, that will help with the selection !
Hope to see your post soon !
Bill
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Well, I intentionally left the price range open 'cause I wanted to know what was out there. But I'll try & narrow it down for you...
First, when I say accurate I'm not looking for one of those ultra-precision competition models that look like something out of a transformers movie. And I'm also not looking for a PCP. I'm looking for the absolute best quality & most powerful air rifle similar to the form of the Gamo's or RWS 460. Beyond that, anything more then $1500 is out of the question. $600 or less is really what I'd be likely to actually spend though unless there was a HELL of an airgun at those higher prices. This gun isn't going to be manhandled or left exposed to the elements, but I don't want something fragile either.
I'd say, I'd like to put a hurtin' on soda cans at 100 yards with a decent 4-12x scope. If I could get a typical Crossman wadcutter lead pellet .22 up to 900-1000fps & accurate enough to hit soda cans at 100 yards... I'd be a happy happy man.
How's that?
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How about the Theoben SLR. They say 18 ft lbs. How's that translate to speed for a .22 pellet?
See, this is an expensive air gun but I like it's features. Underlever, ease of loading with a 17rd mag, & has that fancy air-ram system you mentioned.
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Given what you think you'd like to do, range, accuracy, power, etc............. Buy a good .22 LR. You are really stretching what can and should be expected of an air rifle, particularly a spring or gas ram powered one. The performance expectations you cited would be hard pressed to be acheived with a high end, powerful PCP air rifle.
Buy a nice CZ .22 LR or .17 HRM powder burner and be happy.
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Welcome to GTA. If you want fun to shoot, you DON'T want a magnum springer. You'll want a mid powered springer, which opens up a much wider selection for you. You're going to have a hard time beating a Beeman R7 for a fun to shoot springer. A well tuned Baikal 512M, NOT 513, is loads of fun to shoot. Your best bet may well be a Mike Melick tuned B26.
Powerful and accurate don't go hand in hand with springers due to the increased difficulty in accurately shooting a magnum springer. Yes, they can be shot accurately, but they take a LOT more practice and experience to do so. If you want the most powerful AND most accurate rolled into one gun, you need a really nice, really expensive PCP.
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That would be a hell of a springer, to be able to hit pop cans at 100 yards. My friend and I are able to consistently hit soda cans at 50 yards off of a bench, with an occasional miss. To double that range would be something to see. I'm not saying it can't be done, but our guns (especially mine) is very hold sensitive.
Good luck.
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What you're asking for is unreasonable to expect from a springer. Not saying it can't be done, I know a couple of guys that shoot 350's at 80 yards and hit what they're shooting at. But it's well beyond what they were designed to do, and expecting that kind of performance is just asking to be disappointed and PO'd. I don't think I could do that consistently with my PCP's, and I'm pretty damn good. I suggest you go back and reread my first response :-). Good luck.
Almost forgot, hold sensitivity is something peculiar to spring piston air guns. You have to learn the proper hold technique if you ever hope to be any good with a springer. Most of them require a very light hold, allowing the rifle to move around the way it wants to. Do it right, and you'll be consistent. Do it wrong, and you'll never get good groups. Some rifles are more sensitive than others, and the magnums tend to be some of the worst. Again, it's inherent in the design, and the more powerful, the worse it tends to be. Check the library, there are a couple of very good articles about hold sensitivity and technique. Later.
Dave
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Well, the truth is I don't know what's reasonable to expect. I just know that within the class of rifle I described I'm looking for the best one. I'll be happy with what ever performance it can deliver.
With that said, I used to hit soda cans at 100yards with a Powerline 880 & a 4x scope. Granted, it wasn't easy, & probably had as much to do with luck as it did accuracy. But that was what made it fun. At full power, that rifle would put a BB into a soda can, but not out the other side.
SO... I know it can be done with a springer or this gas ram system I've never heard of. A 12x scope should simplify the task greatly.
Or do you guys just think I'm crazy for even suggesting such a notion?
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It all depends on how much you want to spend. Any air rifle that shoots a .177 pellet over 1000 fps is fast enough for me. My $49 Daisy 1000 and Hammerli Titan will both shoot over 1000 fps. A good trigger is more important than a few more fps. The Titan/AR1000 has an excellent trigger.
I was shooting in my basement range yesterday with the Titan. If you want a real challenge try shooting empty 9mm brass at 20+ yds off hand.
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Welcome Jason.
Your question is a reasonable one, except that for air gunners, you might as well be asking "what is the meaning of life?" There seem to be dozens of "right answers" that depend entirely on the shooter, skill and personal preferences, how much $ is available, how much weight one is willing to lug around, and philosophy of "shoot it out of the box" vs. "tune/modify it immediately", and what you intend to shoot (paper, varmints) and kill (time, money, varmints).
Don't look to pure velocity as the best indicator. Manufacture's advertised velocities are almost always overstated and even when accurate, are with pellets so light that, with springers in particular, it is probably harmful to the air rifle to shoot them. -- almost like dry firing a springer. The better indicator is foot-pounds of energy (FPE) rather than velocity in feet per second (FPS). But even then, there are always more factors to consider, probably most importantly, what type of power plant do you want -- springer, CO2, compressed air (CA)?
In general, remember that most will want to scope the rifle, which adds additional cost after the purchase. I have found that it is usually better to buy a gun un-scoped, and then choose a decent quality scope and mounts separately. Many (not all) of the "package deals" sell you a low-end scope that won't hold up for very long, particularly with a springer and may be less quality optics than you really want.
I have begun to think about my air rifles in two categories that I find most useful: 1. Accuracy, and 2. FPE per dollar spent. To seriously assess these, you have to be able to shoot the rifle, because, as they say, individual results may vary, and you have to have a chronometer to measure the velocity and calculate the pellet energy. But it is not always the fastest or most energetic pellet that shoots best in a given air gun. If you plan to shoot targets, perhaps competitively at 10 meters and want maximum accuracy (God help you), then expect to spend more (perhaps LOTS more) than for a decent plinker/hunter.
My opinion (and it is only an opinion, and I do not claim an expert opinion) is that long term satisfaction usually mandates a tune. So . . . here goes:
Best "starter" target rifle for the money -- Daisy 853 Avanti 177 single pump pneumatic target rifle.
Best "starter" springer air rifle for the money - Mike Melick tuned B26. You can get a tuned 800+ FPS, 13 FPE .177 cal or 600+ FPS, 13 FPE .22 cal springer from Mike for under $200 shipped with a nice trigger and shooting very good groups out of the box. With a decent scope and mounts, that "package" can be had for under $250 and you will be hard pressed to find a better deal. Consider an RWS Panther 34 also, but the later will benefit from a good tune and take you higher in price range if you go this route.
Best "starter" CO2 air rifle for the money - Mike Melick tuned QB78. Consider the Hammerli 850 if you might want a bolt action repeater. Remember, CO2 guns cost more to shoot after the initial investment and in cold weather (less than 55 degrees or so) performance suffers.
Best "starter" CA air rifle - I hear good things about the Benjamin multipumpers, particularly tuned. Consider also a pre-charged pneumatic (PCP), like the Discovery. But either way, you will have to pump the action, or pump the hand pump, or buy stored compressed air in the form of a scuba tank and fill apparatus, which again, adds expense. I don't have or shoot any CA weapons, other than my single pumpers, but there are lots of "Dark Siders" who will sweetly lure you, like the Sirens, to the promise of superb accuracy and almost unlimited power.
Enjoy your Oddesy!
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Your question is a reasonable one, except that for air gunners, you might as well be asking "what is the meaning of life?"
Damnit!! That was my very next question!!!! :0
OK so, so far it seems that the RWS 460 is still a prime candidate, but it's a springer... one of you guys said something about conversions to a gas ram system?? Any links to a place that sells that conversion? How is that likely to affect the power of the 460?
The Theoben SLR is a close second for me, but is really more then I want to spend. If I wasn't trying to finish remodeling my house, modding my car, & buying an engagement ring all at the same time that SLR would be mine!!
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That's an easy one. Break the engagement and buy the Theoben (just kidding, although statistics may well indicate that owners relationships with Theobens last longer than the average first marriage). The Theoben gas rams are very good. Hard recoil, short lock time, accurate. The Crusader 20 is somewhere around a 14 FPE / 750 FPS and is very accurate. Heavy metal, though. Very mixed reviews on the Air Venturi conversions.
tec
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How do I calculate FPS from FPE?? I know you need pellet weight for that... so what does the regular off the shelf Crossman wadcutter pellet weigh for .177 & .22? That's what I'd use for my calculations.
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Most powerful Webley patriot gas rammed or Theoben Eliminator in .22. Both excellent guns shoot great but weight is murder about 12lbs scoped. Best accuracy TX200 or the HW97. You may find parts for the 460 non-exsistant except through Umarex. Check out the video review on Pyramyd Air's website for the 460. Good luck and unless you are shooting from a bench all the time you will hate the 460 after a while. Let us know what you decide.
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See the link in the GTA library:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/pellet_energy.htm
There are also tables to look up the weights of pellets by caliber and type in the library.
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Thanks for the links, I'll look at those.
The weight of the rifle isn't a big concern so long as it doesn't require a tow-hitch to move around. 99% of my shooting will be done from a bench. The rest will probably be done from a chair using my knee or something like that.
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If you are thinking about the 460, I would suggest seeing if Umarex still has any refurbs in stock. They sell for about $320 so you would save enough money for a tune rightoff. John in PA that posts on this forum and the Dianawerk form does tunes for $100 I believe he said depending on which spring you use. The 460 has plenty of power and is a nice looking abd handling rifle.
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I do believe that at the distance you want to attempt shooting, you'll be better served by using domed pellets such as JSB Exacts rather than wadcutters. That flat head is going to shed velocity faster than a round dome and the pellet will become unstable sooner. A very fast pellet out of the muzzle will also bleed off speed at a quicker rate than a pellet starting out slower, meaning that it can arrive at a long-range target with less energy than the slower-starting one. It's probably not an issue when punching holes in paper targets, but might be for anything else.
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Hey Oreo,since most of your shooting will be from the bench, weight of the pkg w/scope will be less of a factor. If you want power to reach out and touch some soda cans at 100yds but you don't want to go the rimfire or pcp route, understand that even a 12-15 ft.lb gun can hit a soda can sized target at that distance,provided you don't mind 2-3 feet hold over to get it there.I killed a starling at a measured 144 yards with a Diana 34 with a 25 yd.zero, BUT, I had to apply some serious Kentucky windage to land in the kill zone.Four feet or more hold over at that distance.As has been previously stated, accuracy and power are difficult to acheive with spring piston rifles.There is sort of a compromise trade off relationship there. Air Gun Cuz mentioned the Theoben Eliminator as a possible candidate for your stated purpose. It is certainly at or very near the top of the class in the best compromise of power and accuracy.But you will pay a lot for it. A quality .22 rimfire will hit harder, shoot flatter, and be just as accurate for a lot less money if power and accuracy is all that matters to you, in a pkg. that is a fraction of the weight. With certain sub-sonic ammo, you can get in the 60-80 ft.lb.range too and be quiet doing it. The formula to convert known velocity to foot lbs. of energy : VelocityXvelocityXweight in grains,DIVIDED by 450240= Foot pounds of energy. And forget about using wadcutter pellets past 25 yds.They are designed as a very close range projectile and accuracy and energy fall off rapidly. You should be shooting domed pellets for best all around accuracy and energy at distance.Final analysis, factor how much you are willing to spend including mounts and scope,use your research to compare energy levels of various makes and models in your price range.But put accuracy as a high priorityIf you like underlevers,The TX200MK111 is superbly accurate and in cal..177 you can shoot twice as much for the same cost in cal..22.A less expensive alternative that is still very accurate would be the Gamo CFX(with the GRT111 trigger of course) or the Mike Melick tuned B-40.These guns will shoot great out to 50 yds or so but 100 yd. targets will require significant hold over to land on target.Good luck with your choice.Happy shooting and kill a soda can for me.
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One other thing I forgot to mention. Trying to drive a pellet that fast you lose a lot. You have to drop the pellet weight which can damage the spring and seal. The other side is the faster you drive the pellet the more unstable it becomes in flight. In a .22 cal you only need 23 fpe max to get you there and 18-20 fpe would do just as well. I've seen sub 1" groups @ 100 yards but not with a springer. PCP is the relm you will need to venture into for that type of shooting primarily because you can adjust power and pellet weight to find the right balance. I was reading a FT match results from last month in the Northeastand the longest distance shot was 53 yards on a target with a kill zone of 1.5 inches. Nothing wrong with what your wanting to accomplish but even a 1000 dollars springer may still not get you to where you want to be. Maybe a Beeman R1 in .20cal could get you a little bit over everthing you want without a second mortgage.
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http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/Webley_Domin8or_Air_Rifle_p/webz8001.htm
-just a thought. Webly Domin8or? -or Patriot-for a breakbarrel? Either, with a tune later on, should still be under the $600 mark. (maybe not with a good scope setup)
I"m thinking about the possibility of one or the other myself-later on. What do you guys think?
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that's a Hatsan, man... how can hatsan call that gun a Webley?
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Well if I could I would buy Theoben Eliminator in .22, but I tell you for that money you can get a Tuned AAA Condor PCP from talontunes.com or airhog and easy hit targets at 100-200 meter range. IZH 513 in .22 if I heard right does almost 800fps out of the box for $150 if so that's a deal, but the gun is ugly lookin, very old design, with a fine barrel on it. Hunter extreme great gun and overpriced at $479 from Pyramid. Then there is a 350 and 460 Diana, and for the money 350 is a better deal. But I tell you if you get into $500 + range and looking for power get the Condor, or even a Talon with 24 inch barrel for better accuracy in .22 and enjoy.
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The most powerful and most accurate guns are PCP's.
One of them that is both VERY powerful and accurate at the same time is the Air Force Condor and Talon. A Condor is actually accurate up to 100yds and puts out 60+ ft-lbs of muzzle energy out of the box. Mine has almost 80ft-lbs with a couple of very simple mods using 31-32gr heavy .22 pellets or Eley slugs (31gr - look just like .22LR bullets). That's 70% or more the power of a .22 Long Rifle rimfire. PCP airguns however are pretty loud and in most cases too powerful for back yard shooting unless you install a shroud or have a lot of property and don't have to be as mindful of your backstop. My Condor at the lowest power setting, shoots 21gr Beeman Kodiaks right through a 2x4. These guns are however recoiless & extremely accurate but would be better put to use when shooting 50-100yds out. Talon and Condor come with match grade Lothar Walther barrels. You might want to look into an AF Talon (23-40fpe depending on length of barrel you get). These guns in my opinion for what they offer are inexpensive and what they also have going for them is that they are very easy to modify or swap barrels if you want more power. There are additional expenses such as getting a hand pump or a scuba tank to refill them every 40 shots or so. Noone however should have a PCP gun alone. Springers are also great, self-sufficient without needing to be charged or relying on an external source and more quiet. You will always find springers in a true airgunner's arsenal I think.
You should also chose a gun depending on the kind of hunting you 're going to do and the distance you expect to shoot at. For shooting squirrels or bunnies up close (up to 30-35yds), a 12-15fpe springer will do fine. For 50yds, you want to look into the Magnum Springers (17-23fpe) but keep in mind that you can take a racoon or large groundhog/woodchuck at 25yds with a 14fpe gun too, with proper shot placement to the head. Speaking of which, you should always try to hit whatever critter you are after in the head with an airgun, no matter how powerful it is. Not doing so will result in losing your quarry the majority of the time, since most of them are not far from their nest or burrow where they will surely make it to and die minutes or hours later. It is also very important to learn about the animals you are after and how much kinetic energy it takes on impact (to the head) to put them down quickly & humanely.
Do more research and spend time learning about kinetic energy, calculating/estimating it down range, and the power of various guns and their use. Good luck with your decision.
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All around and last forever? I would go with a Beeman R1. Try and find a used one and put in a JM kit and you will be happy for a long time. Not fussy, no leaks; just grab a handful of pellets a go shooting! My friend has some BEAUTIFUL PCP guns, but something is always leaking. or a fitting has to be swapped. Not the most powerful, but a time proven design.
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DougT - 8/24/2008 12:12 PM
That would be a hell of a springer, to be able to hit pop cans at 100 yards. My friend and I are able to consistently hit soda cans at 50 yards off of a bench, with an occasional miss. To double that range would be something to see. I'm not saying it can't be done, but our guns (especially mine) is very hold sensitive.
Good luck.
Aye, My Diana 48 in .22 could hit a paint can lid (maybe 8" diameter) pretty regular at 100 yards before Charlie tuned it. I don't know what it could do right now (after the tune). Soda cans at 100 yards is pretty tough for any air rifle.