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Author Topic: Dovetail V.S. Picatinny V.S. Weaver  (Read 8296 times)
KK0605
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« on: December 03, 2009, 02:41:37 AM »

Scope Rails. This is for discussing which you like best and why. Reading Tom Gaylord's evaluation of them, he said that dovetail are standard, Weaver are NOT for air guns, and Picatinny are the best. Chime in with your set up and why you like it!

Tom's Eval: http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2005/11/picatinny-weaver-dovetail-scope-bases.html
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
KK0605
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« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 03:59:00 AM »

I am looking to get the Hawke Picatinny rail and the Burris Extreme Tactical rings. Both good priced, and I know Burris will be great. Hard to find a 11mm Dovetail to Picatinny rail, Hawke seems to be one of the only ones who make them anymore. I like Picatinny because it has exact measurements, Weaver does not. And Dovetail has not locking groves to hold the rings like Picatinny does.
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
thebookdoc
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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 04:22:09 AM »

Why are Weaver "Not for airguns"?
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THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO
KK0605
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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 04:51:07 AM »

According to Tom Gaylord, (not me; I havnt used them before)

"Weaver mounts don't work on airguns

Weaver mounts originated just before 1950. They were the first attempt to provide standardized scope mounts for rifles. They feature an integral recoil block to keep the rings in one place. Before Weaver mounts, rifles were most often drilled and tapped for small setscrews that sometimes snapped under heavy recoil. The Weaver base has a 3.8mm cross-key slot that accepts special Weaver keys located on the bottom of all Weaver rings. Weaver bases are great for firearms but too wide for air gun rings. Also, the locations of the cross slots are not standardized, so Weaver bases work best with two-piece rings."

I like the Picatinny because they have  exact measure slots, so you can interchange rings and not be afraid of them not matching perfectly. Because Weaver does not have exact measurements, the slots might not fit certain rings.
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
thebookdoc
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« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 05:02:09 AM »

Seems the objection is that the objection is the base is too wide for airguns (11mm dovetails), and I'd have to agree -- but I use a Dovetail to weaver adapter, and it seems to be working just fine. Picatinny would be a preference because there are more slots, but I don't see anyone selling that option in an adjustable mount.
Logged

THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO
airgunandy
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« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 05:09:00 AM »

Why don't most rimfire rifles have Weaver rails? Whatever that reason is, is probably why Weavers aren't on airguns.
I'm guessing that since .22 rimfire has little recoil they don't typically need Weaver-type scope mounts. Traditionally, airguns have been perceived as having lower power than .22 rimfire and can also get by with dovetail rails too. High power springers are an exception to that. I'm not positive, but I think the USA is one of the few countries that do not regulate the power output of airguns, which probably means the majority of guns sold around the world are low enough power that they can get by without Weaver or Picatinny rails. At least that's my guess!

I like the flexibility that dovetail rails gives as far was ring placement and eye relief adjustability, but Picatinny rails would be just as flexible and a lot more stable. I think I've seen some of the new super power springers come from the factory with Weaver or Picatinny rails.
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KK0605
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« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 05:10:54 AM »

Picatinny is the rail that the military has been using because it has exact measurements. Some of the nicest rings on the planet (Leupold Mark 4) use picatinny. More groves, yes, for more detailed positioning. But you can use any picatinny rings with any picatinny rail and be fine. Because weaver does not have exact measurements, you might find a few that do not work with certain types of weaver rings. Are they both good? Yes. They are both just fine. They will both work. And yes it is hard to find an adjustable mount because most guns that use picatinny have the rail built on to it. Hawke sells a "Weaver/Picatinny" rail. But weaver does not have precise measurements and picatinny does. So what size is the rail then???
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
KK0605
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« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 05:13:35 AM »

Picatinny has the extended rail also. That would give even better eye relief.
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
thebookdoc
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« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 05:16:09 AM »

If I get a weaver rail and a weaver mount, I'm betting they fit fine ;-) I see the other advantage of the picatinny, but, like I said, I don't see an adjustable and that was imperative to provide the solution I needed.
Logged

THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO
thebookdoc
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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 05:17:21 AM »

If you look at this thread and the links there, you can see exactly what I got -- and I'll be taking pictures this evening...
Logged

THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO
KK0605
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Posts: 332


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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 05:24:15 AM »

I found a dovetail to picatinny ADJUSTABLE rail! The video says it is dovetail to picatinny. But site doesn't say.

Video Design: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4_UJQou_5o

Finished Product: http://www.killjoyindustries.com/products/adjustablepicatinnyrail.html

EDIT: Idea came out as dovetail to picatinny adjustable, but design changed and is now picatinny to picatinny adjustable! Why?!?!?!?
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
airgunandy
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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 07:20:27 AM »

Oh, paintball! Yeah, you need a lot of elevation to longball paint. My son plays paintball. You may have to hold the marker at almost 45 degrees just to shoot 30 yards. That's where the adjustability of the mount comes in.
Might work for an extreme drooper mount for a breakbarrel!  Smiley

Is this something like you are looking for?
http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/UTG_11mm_to_Weaver_Adapter_Adjustable/2401
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KK0605
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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 07:39:06 AM »

Well, I wanted a adjustable dovetail to picatinny rail for my TF89, though this thread is just about your rail/ring setup. VERY hard to find a dovetail to picatinny rail, let alone adjustable. Why did they change the design? Now it is picatinny to picatinny, not what I want.
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
RedFeather
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 07:43:05 AM »

Rimfires don't come with Weaver bases because the vast majority are grooved for "tip off" mounts. Unless the receivers are drilled and tapped for Weavers, it has to be done after market by a gunsmith. (Most centerfires do come d/t'd for bases due to their higher recoil levels. All centerfire bases are screwed on, BTW.) The Picatinny is great for military applications and to allow easy change of scopes/rings since it's like a one size fits all. But they are a bit utilitarian, even more so than Weavers. On a nicely finished custom gun, I find them to be a cosmetic detraction.
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KK0605
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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 03:00:29 AM »

Yes, I like them purely for the fact that they don't move and the rings can be taken off and put back on without losing zero.
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Kyler
*~K~*~K~*
My one and only air gun: TF89 .22!
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23042&posts=11#M183344

Hunts:
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=23067&mid=183338#M183338

Everyone is a genius at least once a year. The real geniuses simply have their bright ideas closer together.
—Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
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