What's the most powerful & accurate in .22 or .177?

[Oreo]

Your question is a reasonable one, except that for air gunners, you might as well be asking "what is the meaning of life?"

Damnit!! That was my very next question!!!!  :0

OK so, so far it seems that the RWS 460 is still a prime candidate, but it's a springer... one of you guys said something about conversions to a gas ram system?? Any links to a place that sells that conversion?  How is that likely to affect the power of the 460?

The Theoben SLR is a close second for me, but is really more then I want to spend.  If I wasn't trying to finish remodeling my house, modding my car, & buying an engagement ring all at the same time that SLR would be mine!!

[TCups]

That's an easy one.  Break the engagement and buy the Theoben (just kidding, although statistics may well indicate that owners relationships with Theobens last longer than the average first marriage).  The Theoben gas rams are very good.  Hard recoil, short lock time, accurate.  The Crusader 20 is somewhere around a 14 FPE / 750 FPS and is very accurate.  Heavy metal, though.  Very mixed reviews on the Air Venturi conversions.
tec

[Oreo]

How do I calculate FPS from FPE??  I know you need pellet weight for that... so what does the regular off the shelf Crossman wadcutter pellet weigh for .177 & .22?  That's what I'd use for my calculations.

[leftcoast1]

Most powerful Webley patriot gas rammed or Theoben Eliminator in .22. Both excellent guns shoot great but weight is murder about 12lbs scoped. Best accuracy TX200 or the HW97. You may find parts for the 460 non-exsistant except through Umarex. Check out the video review on Pyramyd Air's website for the 460. Good luck and unless you are shooting from a bench all the time you will hate the 460 after a while. Let us know what you decide.

[TCups]

See the link in the GTA library:

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/pellet_energy.htm

There are also tables to look up the weights of pellets by caliber and type in the library.

[Oreo]

Thanks for the links, I'll look at those.

The weight of the rifle isn't a big concern so long as it doesn't require a tow-hitch to move around. 99% of my shooting will be done from a bench.  The rest will probably be done from a chair using my knee or something like that.

[Traolach]

If you are thinking about the 460, I would suggest seeing if Umarex still has any refurbs in stock.  They sell for about $320 so you would save enough money for a tune rightoff.  John in PA that posts on this forum and the Dianawerk form does tunes for $100 I believe he said depending on which spring you use.  The 460 has plenty of power and is a nice looking abd handling rifle.

[Rolls-Royce]

I do believe that at the distance you want to attempt shooting, you'll be better served by using domed pellets such as JSB Exacts rather than wadcutters. That flat head is going to shed velocity faster than a round dome and the pellet will become unstable sooner. A very fast pellet out of the muzzle will also bleed off speed at a quicker rate than a pellet starting out slower, meaning that it can arrive at a long-range target with less energy than the slower-starting one. It's probably not an issue when punching holes in paper targets, but might be for anything else.

[Progun]

Hey Oreo,since most of your shooting will be from the bench, weight of the pkg w/scope will be less of a factor. If you want power to reach out and touch some soda cans at 100yds but you don't want to go the rimfire or pcp route, understand that even a 12-15 ft.lb gun can hit a soda can sized target at that distance,provided you don't mind 2-3 feet hold over to get it there.I killed a starling at a measured 144 yards with a Diana 34 with a 25 yd.zero, BUT, I had to apply some serious Kentucky windage to land in the kill zone.Four feet or more hold over at that distance.As has been previously stated, accuracy and power are difficult to acheive with spring piston rifles.There is sort of a compromise trade off relationship there. Air Gun Cuz mentioned the Theoben Eliminator as a possible candidate for your stated purpose. It is certainly at or very near the top of the class in the best compromise of power and accuracy.But you will pay a lot for it. A quality .22 rimfire will hit harder, shoot flatter, and be just as accurate for a lot less money if power and accuracy is all that matters to you, in a pkg. that is a fraction of the weight. With certain sub-sonic ammo, you can get in the 60-80 ft.lb.range too and be quiet doing it. The formula to convert known velocity to foot lbs. of energy : VelocityXvelocityXweight in grains,DIVIDED by 450240= Foot pounds of energy. And forget about using wadcutter pellets past 25 yds.They are designed as a very close range projectile and accuracy and energy fall off rapidly. You should be shooting domed pellets for best all around accuracy and energy at distance.Final analysis, factor how much you are willing to spend including mounts and scope,use your research to compare energy levels of various makes and models in your price range.But put accuracy as a high priorityIf you like underlevers,The TX200MK111 is superbly accurate and in cal..177 you can shoot twice as much for the same cost in cal..22.A less expensive alternative that is still very accurate would be the Gamo CFX(with the GRT111 trigger of course) or the Mike Melick tuned B-40.These guns will shoot great out to 50 yds or so but 100 yd. targets will require significant hold over to land on target.Good luck with your choice.Happy shooting and kill a soda can for me.

[leftcoast1]

One other thing I forgot to mention. Trying to drive a pellet that fast you lose a lot. You have to drop the pellet weight which can damage the spring and seal. The other side is the faster you drive the pellet the more unstable it becomes in flight. In a .22 cal you only need 23 fpe max to get you there and 18-20 fpe would do just as well. I've seen sub 1" groups @ 100 yards but not with a springer. PCP is the relm you will need to venture into for that type of shooting primarily because you can adjust power and pellet weight to find the right balance. I was reading a FT match results  from last month in the Northeastand the longest distance shot was 53 yards on a target with a kill zone of 1.5 inches. Nothing wrong with what your wanting to accomplish but even a 1000 dollars springer may still not get you to where you want to be. Maybe a Beeman R1 in .20cal could get you a little bit over everthing you want without a second mortgage.

[miked6762]

http://www.airgunsbbguns.com/Webley_Domin8or_Air_Rifle_p/webz8001.htm
-just a thought. Webly Domin8or? -or Patriot-for a breakbarrel?  Either, with a tune later on, should still be under the $600 mark. (maybe not with a good scope setup)
I"m thinking about the possibility of one or the other myself-later on. What do you guys think?

[timofb]

that's a Hatsan, man... how can hatsan  call that gun a Webley?

[timofb]

Well if I could I would buy Theoben Eliminator in .22, but I tell you for that money you can get a Tuned AAA Condor PCP from talontunes.com or airhog and easy hit targets at 100-200 meter range. IZH 513 in .22 if I heard right does almost 800fps out of the box for $150 if so that's a deal, but the gun is ugly lookin, very old design, with a fine barrel on it. Hunter extreme great gun and overpriced at $479 from Pyramid. Then there is a 350 and 460 Diana, and for the money 350 is a better deal. But I tell you if you get into $500 + range and looking for power get the Condor, or even a Talon with 24 inch barrel for better accuracy in .22 and enjoy.

[only1harry]

The most powerful and most accurate guns are PCP's.  
One of them that is both VERY powerful and accurate at the same time is the Air Force Condor and Talon.  A Condor is actually accurate up to 100yds and puts out 60+ ft-lbs of muzzle energy out of the box.  Mine has almost 80ft-lbs with a couple of very simple mods using 31-32gr heavy .22 pellets or Eley slugs (31gr - look just like .22LR bullets).  That's 70% or more the power of a .22 Long Rifle rimfire.  PCP airguns however are pretty loud and in most cases too powerful for back yard shooting unless you install a shroud or have a lot of property and don't have to be as mindful of your backstop.  My Condor at the lowest power setting, shoots 21gr Beeman Kodiaks right through a 2x4.  These guns are however recoiless & extremely accurate but would be better put to use when shooting 50-100yds out.  Talon and Condor come with match grade Lothar Walther barrels.  You might want to look into an AF Talon (23-40fpe depending on length of barrel you get).  These guns in my opinion for what they offer are inexpensive and what they also have going for them is that they are very easy to modify or swap barrels if you want more power.  There are additional expenses such as getting a hand pump or a scuba tank to refill them every 40 shots or so.  Noone however should have a PCP gun alone.  Springers are also great, self-sufficient without needing to be charged or relying on an external source and more quiet.  You will always find springers in a true airgunner's arsenal I think.

You should also chose a gun depending on the kind of hunting you 're going to do and the distance you expect to shoot at.  For shooting squirrels or bunnies up close (up to 30-35yds), a 12-15fpe springer will do fine.  For 50yds, you want to look into the Magnum Springers (17-23fpe) but keep in mind that you can take a racoon or large groundhog/woodchuck at 25yds with a 14fpe gun too, with proper shot placement to the head.  Speaking of which, you should always try to hit whatever critter you are after in the head with an airgun, no matter how powerful it is.  Not doing so will result in losing your quarry the majority of the time, since most of them are not far from their nest or burrow where they will surely make it to and die minutes or hours later.  It is also very important to learn about the animals you are after and how much kinetic energy it takes on impact (to the head) to put them down quickly & humanely.
 
Do more research and spend time learning about kinetic energy, calculating/estimating it down range, and the power of various guns and their use.  Good luck with your decision.

[cliffspot]

All around and last forever? I would go with a Beeman R1. Try and find a used one and put in a JM kit and you will be happy for a long time. Not fussy, no leaks; just grab a handful of pellets a go shooting! My friend has some BEAUTIFUL PCP guns, but something is always leaking. or a fitting has to be swapped. Not the most powerful, but a time proven design.