GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : daveshoot September 07, 2008, 04:52:04 PM
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Took all weekend to put it back together, but the Walther is a shooter once more. I forgot what a hammer this thing is, it really launches the lead.
I did not like some of what I found, and I don't think you would either. There are some massive parts to this gun, with a huge top hat, and some things to like, but some are things are either inexplicable or unforgiveable. I can say it feels a lot better to shoot, now.
1. I posted about the scrap metal and shavings stamped into the seal earlier. Traces of scoring from all this loose steel were evident throughout.
2. Also mentioned the bent to heck follower slide.
3. The "Walther" guns we are getting have changed from the earlier Hatsan 125 shown in the Russian websites. Now the trigger lever is plastic, too, along with the trigger itself.
4. The plastic butt cap on the spring guide is molded with an odd step (probably a poor mold fit), where it mates with the spring guide washer. Since there is a plastic washer between this and the steel washer, it is only a matter of time before this gives and breaks in half. I glued up a spacer/adapter out of neoprene washers from Home Depot, one cut in half to fill the void.
5. The muzzle... well, it could have been formed this well with paleolithic flint tools. I did the best I could to crown, but the rifling is recessed.
6. Bore: I can't get a good picture of this, but there are weird chatter marks at intervals down most of the barrel, really ragged looking. The thing is fairly accurate in my limited testing, so maybe lead fouling fills this mess. I am going to try a fire lap next.
One more thing: the tutorials here: http://webpages.charter.net/guru1/documents/index.html are very helpful. The Daisy 1000 is a very similar Hatsan model, and if you ever find yourself in the middle of one of these, these guides are great.
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Dave, thanks for taking the time to give us this inside look. It's amazing that these guns shoot as good as they do in spite of so much coarseness. Your comments about the barrel I find interesting. I have the .177 version Talon Magnum and the barrel on mine doesn't appear to have visible tooling marks. In fact it appears so glossy that it looks like it has been lapped and finished. Much better in fact than my Diana's,Gamo's,Crossman and Beeman's. Lucky barrel day at the factory I guess.I did find some metal flakes in mine also but in spite of the warts the gun is an accurate 21+fpe thumper.
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Guys from what I understand hatsan 135 is a much more refind model.
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Again thanks for the inside look. That thing is a mess. The crown if you want to call it a crown..:) is a mess and needs special attention before it can really be efficient. Looks like the piston has been beating itself to death. Was the metal chips lead or steel? Did you find where they came from?
Great post Dave and thanks again.
Gene
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Great pics, very clear and sharp. Makes me wonder if I should disassemble and inspect my Gamo shadow and RWS 34 before I put too many more shots through them.
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I'm sure I will be keeping the gun (I would say warranty is thoroughly voided now) and I have invested a lot of time in it. The trigger is better now and the firing cycle is smoother. Cocking is vastly imroved.
It'll be interesting to see what happens to the chrony numbers, but I need to shoot it in a little more.
My attempts to photograph the bore were not very successful, but I suppose if the marks are in the grooves rather than on the rifling, they would not have as much effect. I will try the firelapping anyway.
3 other tips that helped a lot from the RSE link:
Replaced spring between upper and lower sear with ballpoint pen spring of equal length.
Glued one end of this spring to the lower sear to ease reassembly.
Cut off 3/8" long piece from a 3//16 drill bit to use as a temporary pin for upper sear. You drive it out with the real pin after the trigger assembly is installed (the cutoff piece holds it in place but fits up through the assembly housing). Brilliant.
I am wondering about filling the stock with foam. The sound isn't really bothering me so far, but it might be better with some spray in Great Stuff.
There wasn't much preload on the spring but the last inch is heavily compressed. I counted 43 coils but some said 44 (coulda been the whiskey).
Spring wire was .138 diameter. OD of coil was .80", ID about .54.
The transfer port measured .155". Seemed rather large and I guess it would have to be.
Bearing surfaces of the piston OD had severe machining rings and burred edges. I honed this in direction of travel.
Plastic lever shown in trigger housing had what looks like a poor mold fit. There is a longitudinal knit line around the piece, and the halves are offset slightly, causing one side to be raised from the other.
Overall I went pretty light on trigger components, just touching with hone or 1500 grit.
timofb, this is the divine justice for having recommended MP513 to you, and then you got a bad one. Appreciate the note on the 135, but I think my next mag will be the B28 in .22. I am going to let Hatsan catch up to BAM in the QA department and it will be a while before I try another one, especially at these prices.
It is a wonderful learning experience and the WFH is probably still at the upper end of what is possible and practical in spring propulsion power.
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All the metal is steel, and responds to a magnet. It was stomped into the seal originally, and there is a nick where another piece was bent over the edge. Dunno where it came from, although there is a low area in the button area that holds the seal that might be part of it. The finer metal shavings were also inside the piston itself.
I reused the seal, of course... not an off the shelf item and good enough for the job, for now. The nick doesn't extend down the side so it will still hold air.
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looks just like what I found in mine ...nice pics and nice job on spacer....I took another aproch and used the drimal on the shelf and used a washer to make up the difference ....Igot in touch with umerex,they have no replacement parts , as of two weeks ago..I wanted a new piston seal and breech seal..the rifle shoots hard and very acurate..Ihave a new chrony on the way,will try to post some numbers..have you shot over the chrony yet? I realy like the rifle,helped a lot to fill the stock with foam,not to mention removing the metal shaving and deburing...Just my two cents ...Have fun with it...
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You know, I am going to call Umarex on that seal also. Maybe if they hear from a number of us, they can get a couple bags of seals shipped over.
I posted quite a few chrony results a few weeks ago along with some groups (mostly in the mid-8s), but I haven't redone it since the lube. I wouldn't take the new numbers too seriously until it wears in a little, but I shot about 20 rounds last night and it is really cookin'.
Here were the old numbers prior to surgery: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9622&posts=11&highlight=walther&highlightmode=1#M75498
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I like those numbers,but I bet thier even higher now...I have over a thousand round thru mine now ...not as sinsative to hold as it was or maybe Ive found the right hold ...Man it shoots hard for a springer ..Brought down three pigions over the weeked ..I scoped mine with a 4-16-50 Leaper....Umerex took my phone number and said they would give me a call...but havent yet . I think ill call them back tomarrow also.....My WFH like the cp and cphollow point best.
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I bought mine from Pymarid, on the evaluation of whomever it is that makes all the reports on that site.
Mine is sitting on the bench in the garage and I have decided that I am going to pitch the mess into the trash. Dave, if you want it, I will ship it to you no charge.
This rifle is garbage at best and sheite at worst... After about three weeks the plastic stock split at the "reverse" threaded screws. The plastic trigger was, and never became, anything that could shoot worth a darn.
Mine is a .25. If you want it Dave, I will give it to you, and pay for shipping. The stock is in the trash. The action is intact. The trigger is disassembled, and I have to say I will be more careful when I read the advice I see on the pymarid site.
My Dianna 48, on the other hand, tuned by Charlie, now THAT is a rifle.
Thanks Charlie. Wish you were doing more. I would order a .25 from Germany and hand it to you for the tune.
That Falcon is a kit gun, at best.
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She shoots hard but she can't hit a pie tin at fifty yards.
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I just finished the work on the one I have in the shop, no problem getting a new seal for the piston. This one wasn't as bad internally as yours, a fix for the trigger is to remove the OE screw and replace it with a longer one, works good after adjustment..thanks for all the pics. I guess I'll work on them if i have to but would perfer not too.....
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mikeiniowa - 9/8/2008 5:24 PM
I just finished the work on the one I have in the shop, no problem getting a new seal for the piston. This one wasn't as bad internally as yours, a fix for the trigger is to remove the OE screw and replace it with a longer one, works good after adjustment..thanks for all the pics. I guess I'll work on them if i have to but would perfer not too.....
I think they are so variable in their QC that one can't make any assumptions about them. I added the longer screw on the trigger and it helped but my trigger was unsafe if I adjusted the screw to the point that I had a decent let off. It was breaking at about seven pounds.
Honestly, this rifle is a kit gun. Buy it and give it to a man like you, who can spend half a day fooling with it to make it shoot... OR BUY SOMETHING THAT SHOOTS OUT OF THE BOX for the same total cost.
I'm upset, obviously. Just been spoiled. My R10 was tuned in the Beeman shop back in 86 or 87, and my Dianna just shot good out of the box. I would not spend a nickel on one of these Falcons. Not when I could drop another hundred and get another Dianna.
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My bad... sorry. Just venting.
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I would take that and compensate you well. I am at a business dinner just now, but if you're serious I will contact you later tonight.
If you salvage that stock, I will take it, too.
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oh man...i wish i jumped in on this one...i've been wanting one in .25...i love the "big guys" of the break barrels ...oh well...let us know how this one turns out, too.
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I just send back to PA a bad IZH 513 had a bad crossbolt pin, so the barrel was loose like a swing when the gun was cocked, plus the gun was rough all around, but had a great stock finish :) . Sucks! All these guns need to be hand picked for sure, and then tuned. And QC needs to be way better.
Hatsan on top of rough quality has a poor quality steel and barrel, I heard of bent barrels. I read about people changing barrels on them. So they are a great project guns. I start to agree with people that say maybe a BAM would be a better choice after all between IZH and Hatsan. Hower I looked at pics of taken down B40 and man it made me sad as well to see how rough these guns are made.
But for IZH to be putting out that type of work like the one I got is a darn shame.... and that made me upset....
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Dave, you are doing a great job with this gun. Yeah it is all about the learning experience... let umarex people know your complaints, e -mail pics to Ryan Hunt , he seemed to be the one promoting this gun alot :) Walther did a big mistake putting their logo on it, it will hurt their reputation just like it hurt Webley. I think that the Chinese since they copy so many guns at such fast pace actually have gotten better then IZh and Hatsan and will continue to get even better.
So that B28 has to be a good gun. I want one of those too. All the Diana parts should fit, but then again I doubt if they can reproduce the fine barrel that 350 has. I hear D350 takes 100 yard shots with ease.
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The email address is micers@kaballero.com. I will happily mail you the remains at my cost. Just send me an address via E-Mail.
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pyramid air never posts negative reviews. I had 2 bad Nighstalkers that I wrotr about those guns quality they have never posted it. I wrote a gret review of my 850 they posted that. So yeah that sucks, that's why I don't write any reviews on there anymore. And i like talking with Kevin from straightshooters, he told me straight this gun and those turkish patriots are plain junk. That's why used UK made Webleys have gone so much in price.... yep :(
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How did you take off the plastic muxxel break? I already removed the small hex screw, but the break will not come off..
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If you take off the site, under the site is more screws that hold the muzzle brake on.
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Thank you.
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Has anyone found an after market trigger for this rifle? I was not able to view any of the wooden stock photos, not sure why, any where else I could get a glimpse?
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Let me re ask my question. The front plastic sight is what I am trying to take off. I thought it was called a muzzel break, evidently not. It has a small hex screw on the side, however when you remove the screw the plastic site does not come off no matter how much I pull or twist.
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After removing the set screw, I angled a piece of hard maple so the edge of the woodrested on the brake, and rapped it with a rubber mallet. I worked my way around the diameter. There is not much ledge to rest the maple on, but enough. I don't recall any evidence of glue. You can see the ridges that just sort of bind the plastic in place.
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hey guys jm has seals for these things!! the seals also work well for the benji super streak.
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How did you end up dealing with the crown?
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I really couldn't.Becausethe factorytrue muzzleis recessed, possiblya liner (?),there is no way within my feeble powers to address it. The way to deal with the crown is to chop and re-choke, and I didn't want to go there. I wouldn't take much off if that's the way I was going, though. You wouldn't want to lose much leverage on this beast. Also, I have no good means to re-choke after a chop job.
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I really like the rifle, I purchased it with the gas ram piston. However, this is my second one. The first one snapped in half upon cocking, it hurt! I sent it back, got another. I am getting great groups with different pellets, 20 and 30 yards as I expected, but I get really great results at 40, 50, and 60 yards. It is capable of flinging 14gr to 18gr pellets 60 yards with accuracy and penetrating 3/4 inch cedar fence planks. Not sure why the forum speaks so poorly about it. The reason I wanted to take the plastic part apart I wanted to recreate the Gammo whisper ND52. I made a prototype that worked great, except it was too long, and heavy. I used their design, and modified it by insulating the baffles similar to a Logan style. The only thing I really would like to change is the trigger to a metal one, but I do not think there is an after market one yet, unless you know of one? The stock stinks, but it works you just have to be careful with it. Instead of using the 11mm dove tail to mount the scope I chose to use the Picatinny Weaver mounts it allows you to remove the scope stop for it is no longer needed, and set the scope back further, plus I am not sure if this is a feature of the scope, but the very back of the scope behind the light switch rotates another inch back. It only goes about an inch, and it does not seem to loosen anything. It defiantly has something to do with focus, however it could be used to set the scope back even further, but not necessary with the weaver style mounts. I am a 190lbs 5'9" 32 year old man, and I plink with it for hours, some times drunk, and I think all that think it hard to cock should man up, it is not that hard, however I also bow hunt, and I think I have muscles that most do not. I am currently unemployed so I have nothing better to do. I prefer the agreement predator it seems to fly straight, and cuts paper clean, and seems to group the tightest. As opposed to the cross man premier 14.3 (great for plinking shots out to 40 yards, but the grouping gets worse), the beeman silver arrow 17.1 gr (I was excited about is the worst, no matter what range), the Beeman Crowmag 18.2gr ( I believe is worth it at medium to long range, but does not cut the paper clean, so I assume it is tumbling). These are all in .22 which I believe is much better than the .25 simply because you can get the same weight in .22 and get better FPS, and FPE results, even at longer ranges. The next pellets I will buy will be the 26gr Big Boy, 28gr Eunjin and the Eunjin 32gr, any of you have experience with any of these pellets? I know I have said a lot about this gun, and have referred back to the discussion, but I read all these negative reports, and I have either found suitable solutions, or just simple exercise that eliminates all the discussed problems, except the trigger, and stock I agree with all. I think it is a good all round rifle, and I am able to shoot it with ease, and accuracy.
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Elgin, they are OK and that's why they make so many models of air guns. I have guns I enjoy that others don't think so highly of....
They cost a lot for the level of QC I found, however. You can get an RWS34 .22for that kind of money, and find a whole world of finesse for a marginal sacrifice in power. The WFH does shoot pretty well now, especially for a spring cannon. Never tried a gas ram and maybe that is just the thing for it. I was kind of annoyed they couldn't blow the scrap out of it before assembly, though. Subsequent batches may have been better for all I know.
Some isa matter of what you're used to. When I shoot, 'specially at critters, the trigger IS the gun, at least until it goes off. The Walther Falcon trigger is bloody awful, sorry. It is awful in 2 directions, too, not just heavy and creepy but wobbly. I didn't make it much better but I may revisit someday. Still, with discipline the gun will shoot very decent groups. I have other guns that are "hammers" that behave more nicely, is all.
It is heavy to cock but I have others nearly as heavy (MP513). It was advertised (maybe still is) as having 27 lbs. of cocking force. I think this was mixed up with the trigger spec (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif)and that is about helf the true cocking weight. I bowhunt, too. This was more like my first recurve, before I got into compounds. To while away a weekend shooting at paper, I would rather play with the more medium-powered guns. But, you shoot what you got. This is a lot of power for the money, no doubt about it. If there was a replacement trigger I would buy it in a heartbeat. For now, it spends most of the time in the closet, in case a rhinoceros shows up in the yard.
There really isn't much as powerful as this and if you master the trigger and your stock holds together, there is no reason you shouldn't enjoy the heck out of it. Once you have some work in a gun, it is hard to let one go.
Hope you're back to work soon! I am sorry to be snobby about triggers and such. There is another cost-effective magnum lady on the block these days, if you're inclined to branch out later- check out tjk's thread http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16770&posts=9#M136173 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=16770&posts=9#M136173)
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Here's a photo of the wooden stock I made for mine after the original plastic stock from the factory cracked at all 4 holes on the forend. To get rid of the side to side trigger wobble I was experiencing with mine I took a pair of vice grips and pinched the sides of the trigger group housing togeather slightly. I also went back and installed an Air Venturi gas ram in it.
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I competly agree about the trigger, I wish I could find one that would work with it. I play with the screws to set the trigger back a bit, and lighten the pull, however that wobble is gross. I contacted Hantsen in turkey dirrectly to see if I could get one of the brass 135 MOd triggers, no answer yet. That link you sent me to looks just like the WFH, as far as the metal goes. Is it supposed to be a china remake? I have not opened mine to see the internals because Bah, and Stacy at PA did it for me, when they installed the piston. I think if you decised to have one installed you would dust it and shoot it more offen. Bah, said that in the past (2008 models) there were a lot of quality control issues, but this last batch was a lot better. The thing about the piston is it is filled to love the rifle, and am going to use it to hunt. I almost bought a Mendoza RM600, and ended up with this. i got a great deal on it! I was given free over night shipping, I had a 10% coupon, and found some errors on thier site so I go an additional 5% off, then I found the rifle stock for less else were and they price matched it for me. I saved over $100.00 off the piston model.
Do you know of or if you hear of anyone with an after market trigger please please let me know I will do the same for you. I wonder if that B28 stock would fit this WFH, it looks wood, and I bet would be cheap, that is worth looking into.
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B28 is a copy of the RWS350, and is another type of breakbarrel magnum altogether. By all accounts it has extreme power, a great trigger, and very good QC, not to mention a decent wood stock for a Chinese rifle.
I really think the Chinese have been listening to the American airgun market. Maybe the Turks are too (they certainly got the 1000 fps obsession) but the Chinese build quality seems to be getting much better.
The good thing is you bought your WFH right and you're having fun working on it and shooting it, plus you get bragging rights for being at the extreme upper end of spring gun power. I had fun working on and shooting mine. I am just more fickle, and that was a few guns back. It will hit a kill zone at 30yds very nicely.