GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Hunting Gate => : TexasShooter72 September 11, 2008, 05:44:21 AM
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What follows is an email sent to Texas State Parks and Wildlife. Not necessarily questioning state law but asking for the fundamentals that current laws were based upon.
Hopefully my numbers aren't too far off... I think I did a decent job of covering it. Lemme know whatcha think!
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Thankyou for your last response! It helps alot!
I do however have an additional question. From what is listed in the previous email and the 2008-2009 Season Guide... "Airguns are unlawful" for hunting game animals. Okay. Now, there's been alot of talk about this in the airgun forum for which I am a part on the "grey area" regarding the power of some airguns.
I am not upstaging nor questioning the integrity of Texas Parks and Wildlife.
I can see where the average pellet gun(shooting 400-700 feet per second in .177 caliber @ 10-12 foot-pounds) is not appropriate for hunting purposes. This may very well be what current law has been based upon.
The air rifles of modern day have been refined to the point of producing 20-26 foot pounds(840-990 feet per second) in .22 caliber. Which, I might add is in the range of powder-burning rimfires. Rimfire .22's are legal for certain pest elimination as well as for certain game(to my understanding, I may be wrong). The .177 caliber pellet rifles have been refined to reaching up to 1100 feet per second(chrony'd) or up to 18 foot pounds.
May I ask what the current laws are based upon? I ask, because when a .22 pellet gun can pierce a 2X4 at 30 yards it certainly speaks volumes of the guns integrity. I am not asking that current law be changed but hold consideration for air rifles that are in a class of their own.
Any input would be greatly appreciated!
Matt
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Nice letter. I think you cover all the points without getting them angry. Nice job.
I think you're definitely correct in both your assumptions and interpretations. Airguns are "outlawed" for hunting purposes mainly to prevent the small proportion of idiots who would have otherwise gone into the woods with their Red Ryder to go coon hunting (or something of bigger size than a sparrow). All the Red Ryder would do is hurt the animal and lead to suffering. Rather than putting in language into the law that says "only air rifles with greater than 25 fpe can be used" it's best to outlaw them altogether. There would be too much room for interpretation and selective enforcement otherwise. Just like many states say you must use centerfire only to hunt. Sure, a good rimfire can drop many small animals, but rather than leaving any room for negotiation, they just banned all small calibers.
Remember, laws are always written with the lowest common denominator in mind: the complete idiot. Most hunters are intelligent, know their weapons, and know their animals. Most would never try to use a Red Ryder to shoot a bobcat. But there's the one idiot who would, so laws need to be made. Is it fair? Well, that's for another conversation.
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Well thankyou so much jay for your two cents! My numbers might be a bit off but you've very clearly pointed-out the reasoning behind such law(s). There IS always that one idiot out there...
Thanks again for your input! I wasn't trying to appear abraisive but was merely asking the fundamentals behind the current law(s). I'm interested in what they come back with!
-Matt
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Careful what you ask for. Pointing out to those in a position to influence changes in the law that, as a class, high-powered air guns approach rim fire 22's and should be appropriate for small game hunting begs the question of which laws should be changed, the ones exempting air guns from ATF regulation, or the ones prohibiting their legal use in certain types of hunting.
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Good point indeed, Tommy. I'm just curious what they'll come back with.
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While your comparison to the .22lr sounds good, it points out one reason most states (if not all) limit caliber choices for certain game. A 22lr will kill a deer but not outright nor humanely within reasonable hunting distances. Therefore, it isn't allowed for such game. Ditto the "hot rock" .22 center fires. While on paper they produce some impressive FPE's, at longer ranges the smaller bullets shed power to an unacceptable level.
Pellet rifles kind of fall into this same line of thought. At close range they can penetrate a 2x4 but you get the nimrods who want to push it to 100+ yards and then the guns don't shine as brightly. The standard velocity 22lr has a 39 grain bullet which is nearly three times the weight of a 14.3 grain pellet. Exiting at 1000+ fps, the 22lr has a lot more retained energy.
Don't get me wrong. There are certainly airguns out there capable of significant FPE It's just that they are in the minority and the regs are written with the less powerful airguns in mind. As pointed out here and elsewhere, lobbying to have airguns admitted during certain hunting seasons runs the risk of elevating them to the perceived status of firearms. And with that comes restrictions.
BTW, I don't think I saw a reference to what game the Texas laws exclude. Certainly a 12 FPE pellet gun would be compentent for squirrels, doves, et cetera.
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Having read the responses I should've just as well asked here first. Basically, it all comes down to the nimrods out there who try to shoot bigger game with Red Ryder velocities. It all makes perfect sense.
Thankyou RedFeather for your input as well. Very well worded! All I'm going after anyway are squirrels, rabbit and the occaisional coyote.
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Matt,, "Red Feather"????? is a personal Friend of mine,, He is a GREAT person,, I hold him in HIGH RESPECT!! You & I are "REDNECKS" for shure!! LOL!! "Red Feather" is Good People,, Not saying You implied otherwise,, just wanted to let you & all here know,,Red Feather is a Friend of mine & is a "Good Guy"!! He will not knock us Matt for Hunting we do!!LOL!! Tim.
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Oh... jeeze. Did it appear like I was rippin' somebody??? I liked what he had to say! Very well worded thread response! I do apologize if it appeared that I was being apprehensive. I wasn't. Juss a makin' conversation!
Enjoy!
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Matt,, its all good Buddy you said nuthin wrong at all!! Just was sayin I have known "Red" for some time now,, he,s a pretty cool cat!! Tim.
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Tim, you is one mean guard dawg. Sic 'em! Seriously, no offense taken, period.
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Thanks, cuzz I didn't even know I'd said anything offensive!
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It's good to ruffle "their" feathers once in a while. A lot of these laws were writting a very long time ago and should be revisited.
BTW, there is no 20-26fpe gun that can penetrate a 2x4" that I know of, even from 1" distance. My 350 .22 shoots CP's at 23.4fpe at the most. It can only penetrate 2 1/2" plywood boards from a coule of yards away. My Condor needs 45-46pe to penetrate a 2x4" from 6yds away with a 21gr Kodiak. It cannot even do it at 15yds. It takes 70+fpe to penetrate two(2) 2x4's from 6yds with a 32gr .22 pellet/slug.
I will however try it on one 2x4 at 30yds to see what power is needed to penetrate it :-)
I do think my 2x4's are very hard though and may not be the norm. They are not pine or any of the softer woods out there. But I 'm not sure what type of wood they are but they seem to be very hardened. My 12fpe gun only goes in like 1/4"! My 8fpe 2240 only goes in a hair and stays stuck at the surface. The 2x4's I use are for outdoor use. I took them off my old (15-20yr old) pool decking when I tore the pool down a couple of years ago. The pool was disrupting my hunting range and view so it had to go :-) I 'm holding an 11" piece in my hands and it's almost 3lbs. Very dense & heavy.. So it's definitely possible to easier penetrate a softer wood or pine 2x4".
Tim: any idea what kind of wood my 2x4's are? I think my Condor could go through 3 of some other 2x4's I 've seen that looked and felt a lot softer than what I got.
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Matt, if you remember, we hada somewhat similar thread back in July. You may also provide them info from other state laws about small game air gun hunting as well. Especially in Colorado, the guys did a very good job (check Stephanie’s post): http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9653&mid=72440#M72440 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=9653&mid=72440#M72440)
That’s a good letter. Make small corrections and send it to NRA too if you are really interested in changes.
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Texas allows the use of airguns for the taking of nongame animals this year. In the past it was not alowed but the laws have changed in favor of all of us how enjoy hunting small game like squirrels , prairie dogs , coyote . raccoons , foxes , skunks , frogs , turtles and so on all ya need is the hunting license check out the web site tpwd: nongame and other species to see what yo can hunt in Texas
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Dang Tim, I hope you do not shoot me for a follow up on one of RedFeathers posts...:) I disagreed to some extent with him... lol
I am a redneck but you have to raise up my hair in the back to see it... LOL
Gene
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Question Spark,
Does this include armadillo? Have been dyeing to make chili out of one.
Tinbendin' Dave
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What follows is the response that I got to that email. The guy pretty much turned the whole thing into swiss cheese! I know that my numbers were off but he definitely makes note of it and rubbed my nose in the poopoo!
Enjoy!
Matt,
Air guns / pellet guns are legal to use when hunting nongame animals. Nongame animals include, but are not limited to the following:
Armadillos
Bobcats
Coyotes
Mountain lions
Frogs
Prairie dogs
Rabbits
Turtles
Air guns could also be used for pest elimination, rats or pigeons for example. TPWD does not regulate the taking of rats or pigeons. If you are a landowner or landowner’s agent dealing with nuisance fur-bearing animals (i.e. skunk, opossum or raccoon), you can take the nuisance fur-bearing animals with an air gun. However, the pelts cannot be retained or possessed.
Regarding your assertion highlighted below, I do not agree that .22 caliber air guns produce energy ft-lbs “in the range of†.22 rimfire ammunition. For example, Winchester .22 Short ammo with a 29 grain Super-X bullet produces 77 ft-lbs at the muzzle of a rifle and 52 ft-lbs at 100 yards. CCI subsonic .22 rimfire ammunition produces 98 ft-lbs at the muzzle of a rifle and 72 ft-lbs at 100 yards. Your statistic of 20-26 ft-lbs is, at best, half the energy of a .22 Short at 100 yards. Your statistic is “in the range of†CCI’s CB Short/Long ammo, although still less energy ft-lbs.
If you would like a change in the Legal Means and Methods, this would be done by making your argument before the Parks and Wildlife Commission. The Commission accepts public comment before regulations are adopted each year. Notices regarding upcoming Commission Meetings are always posted on our website: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us
Scott Vaca
Assistant Chief of Wildlife Enforcement
Texas Parks & Wildlife Department
4200 Smith School Road
Austin, TX 78744
Office: (512) 389-4626
Fax: (512) 389-8400
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I wasn't out to change anything. Just wanted to know how the laws got to where they are today. He didn't answer that question.
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Dont feel bad Buddy,, Ya done GOOD!!!! That Mr.Scott Vaca guy seems to me to be a staight shooter!! If I were you,, I would feel honered by his honest reply!! I was wondering if you would even get a reply at all. Man was I wrong!! Maybe you should ask him "What If",, Ya had a 50 cal. Dragon Slayer with 2-300 Ft. Lbs.?? He He !! ( Just Funnin Matt!!) Seems to me Mr. Vaca is like alot of the DNR Folks I have met in my many years,, he may just be an avid outdoorsman hisself!! Please PM me his E-Mail info Matt,, I feel compelled to thank him for his responce to you. You done good Matt (Seriously)!! Your Hunting Buddy in S.C.,,,, Tim.
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RANT ON!!!!!
Screw them. Use it anyway. Just don't get caught.(kinda, sorta, half-joking) Hunting is a God given right, not a government given privilidge. These folks have forgotten who pays their salaries. And why should I be punished just because there "may" be someone ignorant enough to use a Red Ryder to hunt a bobcat? That's neither my fault, nor my problem. Some folks are too eager to bend over for government that has usurped authority that it doesn't rightfully have. The same argument is used to justify every gun control law on the books. Someone "may" use this or that type of gun to commit a crime. BS. Laws should punish the individuals who commit mala in se crimes. Not make criminals out of everyone. It is your duty as am American to disobey all unconstitutional laws.
I remember the governmental attitude about crossbows before they were legalized for hunting in GA. That rich b@stard attitude of "only poachers use crossbows".
Screw 'em all. Hunt deer with a muzzle loading cannon loaded with blue whistlers. Have you seen that website? Hilarious. Google "hunt deer with a cannon".
What propels the projectile doesn't make a d@mn, as long as it can do the job with an accurate shot. My R1 .177 kills squirrels faster than my .22s ever did with solids. True, I can't shoot squirrels at 100 yds with my R1, but why would I? Gray squirrels are very well camouflaged in the fall/winter woods, so why would I want to try to find one that I shot 100 yds away? For that matter, .22 LR is less than ideal for 100 yd small game shooting, as well as pretty underpowered for beavers, bobcats, coyotes, cougars, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love my rimfires. I just don't hunt with them as much as I do with my air rifles. I shot my first squirrels and doves with a Crosman 2100, pushing .177 wadcutters to 725 fps at the muzzle. It killed the squirrels quickly and the doves instantly. That's been MANY years ago (statute of limitations is up), and now I hunt with more powerful pumpers, springers, and PCPs.
.22 Hornet and .30 Carbine are legal for deer in GA and illegal for small game. How stupid is that. They are woefully underpowered for deer, except for head shots (the only sure way to get a one shot stop). They are, however, fantastic for small game. With solids, they knock the snot out of squirrels and rabbits without undue meat damage. They used to be legal for small game in GA, and illegal for deer. I used to hunt small game with them, but now I can't, all because some bureaucrats with no knowledge of ballistics decided that all rimfires should be for small game only, and all centerfires would be great for deer, bears, and hogs only.
Imagine shooting a black bear or a feral hog with a .22 hornet. NOT my remote control drill of choice.
BTW, all of the air rifles I use for hunting are LEGAL in GA for that purpose. I'd like to have a .25 cal air rifle. They're not legal for small game in GA. I may need to send a letter to the DNR. See if it can be rectified. It's even better than .177 or .22 for hunting. I can't afford a .25 cal airgun right now, so it's a bit of a moot point. I do have a .45 caliber PCP that I'd like to use for deer and/or hogs. I don't even have a place to hunt deer this year, so it's a moot point, also. Maybe I'll go on a guided deer/hog hunt on a private hunting ranch. I'd carry my .44 mag as a backup, just as I would with my flintlock. I may follow the creek in my neighborhood into the woods and take a beaver or 2. That's probably the closest I'll come to hunting big game.
Hmmm, ARMADILLO. There's an idea. Those pests are all over GA now. Just like illegal aliens. I've heard that 'dillos taste like pork. Just be careful to cook it THOROUGHLY. You wouldn't want to get leprosy.
RANT OFF
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I’m glad for you. They gave you the rights to legally hunt a wide range of prey. You must be happy.
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Jaymo... you're an animal! Thanks for the rant! A little twisted, but a-d-m-i-r-a-b-l-e!
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In this here state the Game Wardens' reach goes beyond that of the police! I'm sure he knows the Regulation book like the back of his hand. Yeah, I was kinda taken-aback when I'd read his response! Pretty damn-well put, huh!
-Matt
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ya that includes dillo but we are in Texas and you need to check with your parks and wildlife department to see whats legal in your area.this is the frist year texas has aproved of any huntting with airguns to my knowledge and I check each year to see what laws have changed as I tend to hunt on public and federal lands and have had run ins the rangers and gamewardens and let me tell ya those guys are serrious about the LAW! I also do alot of hunting within the city of Ft. worth and been stoped by the police but once they check me out and see what I,m doing they leave me alone they usually want to make sure I.m not dumping or doing other illegal activities which is fine by me but I have had to fight a few criminal trespass tickets and won, my saying no fence no signs no ticket!I never go onto posted property this is Texas we shoot and ask no questions!
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You COULD have mentioned the 9mm, .45, and .50 air rifles on the Pyramid Air web page. :-)
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I'm going to appeal to my state DNR to approve .25 cal airguns for small game hunting on the grounds of it's superiority to the .177 in terms of muzzle energy and wound channel.
Then I'm going to appeal to them to approve the big borer PCPs for deer, hogs, and maybe turkeys. Hopefully they'll be open minded about the subject.
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BTW, about half of my first post in this thread was tongue in cheek. Or maybe it was based on my frustration with government in general.
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Considering the fact that my .45 PCP shooting a 390 grain slug has more than 3 times the ME than my Barnett Quad 400 crossbow, I don't see why the PCPs aren't legal for deer. They have the same range limitations as crossbows, yet crossbows are legal. I'm all for crossbows being legal. I just know that big bore PCPs should be, also.
It seems legal weapons for hunting are often determined by people with no knowledge of ballistics.