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PCP - HPA - C02 Gate => PCP DarkSiders Forum => : kcurrie September 18, 2008, 08:30:12 AM

: Talon SS to 9mm?
: kcurrie September 18, 2008, 08:30:12 AM

I'm itching to get a Talon SS (in .22) and as I'd also like to try some hog hunting I was wondering what it takes to upgrade one to 9mm. Who makes the barrels, parts etc? I'm assuming the moderator on the SS will have to come off for 9mm use. What's all involved with the 9mm conversion?  One you flip to 9mm is it just a barrel change to go back to .22 for general use?

I'm close to going to the dark side-- any help getting over there would be appreciated! :-)

Thanks.

: RE: Talon SS to 9mm?
: BuffaloBilious September 18, 2008, 02:01:52 PM

Hog hunting?  You don't want the Talon SS, you want the Condor, with some serious mods above and beyond the OEM setup.

With all due respect to the folks here, you may want to go to talonairgun.com.  They'll  tell you whether 9mm is possible, and you'll maybe even find someone to manufacture the parts for you.

Mod, not trying to rock the boat, just trying to point this guy in the right direction for what he's looking for...

Best regards....

: RE: Talon SS to 9mm?
: airgun/cuz September 18, 2008, 02:03:39 PM

TALON TUNES! He will have all your answers.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Gene_SC September 18, 2008, 02:08:48 PM

Get a Draggon Slayer for hogs....:) Or you will be runnin for the trees... hehe

http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/dragonslayer.html (http://www.americanairgunhunter.com/dragonslayer.html)

Gene

: RE: Talon SS to 9mm?
: kcurrie September 18, 2008, 02:21:12 PM

I'm aware of talontunes and did some searching on there before posting, however I may not have searched enough because while I heard mention of people with 9mm Air Force guns I didn't see who sold them.

My understanding of the Condor and Talon series is that they are essentially the same except for some valves, hammer springs and when there is a caliber change, the barrel.

80% of the time I want the quiet moderated barrel of the SS, however I'm not totally against swapping the barrel and whatever is necessary to bring it up to 9mm or so for some hog hunting.  Yes, I thought of the Dragonslayer and other bigbores however I want to *attempt* to minimize the number of airguns I buy in the future :-)

I will repost my Q's to Talontune as well.

Thanks for the replies.

: Condor 9mm would mainly involve barrel & hammer swap.
: 3n00n September 18, 2008, 06:50:46 PM

I'll have to agree that the Condor high flowvalve is the better route for higher power.

I however, have seenvideo of a 400+fpe .458"cal condor, but it had a highly modified valve and only got a few shots on a fill.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: melloroadman September 19, 2008, 08:38:28 AM

Remember air guns are cheaper and easier to get than replacement human body parts. Marvin

: RE: Talon SS to 9mm?
: johncedarhill September 19, 2008, 09:35:31 AM

http://www.impactairgun.com/hoghunt6.cfm

.25 caliber Condor--BTW the SS will not cut it in my opinion. You will need the longer barrels and Condor valve to get the FPE. Dave in Washington might chime in here. I don't know if Kevin Impact Air Gun has .25 but you can get what you need at Air HOg.

: NO WAY, NO HOW!!!
: daved September 19, 2008, 01:30:51 PM

I don't care what anyone says, an air gun is NOT suitable for hunting hogs IMO.  Those are some mean, tough critters, and I've seen a thoroughly PO'd wild boar shrug off multiple hits from a 30-30 and still keep coming.  I suppose I'm with Gene, if you just have to hunt them with an air gun, then a true big bore would be the way to go, and then I'd want someone standing by with a .300 Win Mag for back up, or maybe a 12 ga. loaded with magnum slugs.  I know, lots of guys do it, but just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.  Just my opinion, so take it for whatever you think it's worth.  BTW,  even a Dragon Slayer looks pretty anemic compared to powder burners, at about 200 fpe, it barely beats out the .22 LR, doesn't if you're using the hyper velocity ones.  Something to think about, would you hunt hogs with a .22?  Later.

Dave

: Actually you are only telling one part of the story
: jon September 19, 2008, 01:41:25 PM

200 FPE from a .50 cal slug has a whole bunch more frontal area not to mention penetration ability compared to a .22 long rifle.  Not to mention the capabilty of expanding to over and inch with the soft lead used.  Hogs arent half as tough as people make them out to be, they just dont know where to hit them for a quick kill.

Not that I really care for PCP big bores and the possiblilities of airgun regulation by state and federal authorities that they will almost surely put a damper on airgunning in general.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: DanoInTx September 19, 2008, 03:24:28 PM

Buy a Talon for targets and get a powder burner for wild hogs.  No sense in getting injured or killed because the guys on any forum said "sure dood, just get a good headshot and it'll drop like a rock".  With a Talon "IF" you don't drop it with the first shot it will run you over before you can say,"reload!".  

Just my $0.02....bubble gum machines all run on quarters thesse days anyways:)

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: kcurrie September 19, 2008, 04:49:24 PM

I've been itching to get a crossbow as well so maybe that is the better way to go for hogs. At least with a crossbow I can practice in the yard with no need to goto a range like I'd need to with a big bore or powder burner.   Without a doubt I'll get a Talon SS .22 for targets and rabbits though.

Thanks for the all the opinions-- it does help.

: You think so?
: daved September 20, 2008, 02:15:09 AM

Sorry, Jon, but I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Energy is energy, and it's one of the most quantifiable yard sticks we have to determine the efficacy of a particular rifle for a particular use.  And what .50 cal. ammo expands to over an inch?  Cite your source, please, unless it's results on a steel plate.  If so, it's meaningless in this case, flesh and bone aren't steel.  And greater penetration ability compared to a .22 LR?  Again, cite your source please.  The lowly .22 LR has a long history of complaints about "over penetration", just like the .177 pellet.  And if you still believe over penetration is a bad thing, go read some of J.P. Shelton's articles on the subject.

How tough hogs are is your opinion, mine differs.  Regardless, they are potentially DANGEROUS, unpredictabale game that will charge rather than run away, they are shockingly fast, and can do some serious damage in a big hurry.  And if a hunter doesn't know where to hit ANY game animal for a quick kill, that hunter has no business hunting in the first place.

Regarding new restrictions and regulations on air guns, I don't think the big bores are going to cause it, for most people they are novelties.  The trouble is going to come from the high powered production PCP's in standard calibers making 30 or so fpe and up.  I didn't read the article, but I believe a cop was killed recently with an air rifle somewhere in the world, want to say New Zealand but not sure.  THAT'S the kind of thing that will get the lawmakers, and perhaps worse, the media's attention.  We live in a frightened, steadily shrinking world, and ANYTHING that can "reach out and touch someone" will continue to be looked at with suspicion.  Today it's "assault weapons", tomorrow could be our air guns, the day after, who knows?  Sling shots, maybe?  The best plan may be to enjoy it while you can, and keep a low profile.  And now I will step off my soap box, later.

Dave

: WELL ?????????????????????????????
: melloroadman September 20, 2008, 04:41:59 AM

I almost want to laugh but I will keep it to a smile . Take the crossbow and a good health plan and tie yourself up in a tree and hunt hogs as long as you desire or till the rope brakes . Good luck and may be I missed some thing here I don't know . Marvin

: RE: WELL ?????????????????????????????
: johncedarhill September 20, 2008, 05:09:10 AM

Just plain LUV IT.

: RE: WELL ?????????????????????????????
: kcurrie September 20, 2008, 07:30:36 AM

Hah, I knew I'd get a response like that :-)  Hell, people in Texas here hunt hogs with just dogs and knives, which sounds just crazy-- much more so than a crossbow backed up by a 12 gauge with a slug :-)

I've got the good health plan-- it will come in handy to stitch up my legs after I'm gored. Thanks for the advice :-)

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: jon September 20, 2008, 07:58:11 AM

I'm sure J will be along soon to tell you just how much more powerful a big bore airgun is compared to a 22.  I'm sure J wouldnt back me up on the other opinion but thats fine, my opinions arent always in line with other hunters either.

Guys over at airgunadvice.com have proved you wrong and showed just exactly how tough hogs are 2 trips to a hog ranch, and everyone killed a hog with airguns much less powerful than what the original poster mentioned in a talon.  1 Hog was killed with a 40 FPE rapid PCP.  It weighed well over 100 pounds.

Hell, in my neck of the woods people catch them with their bare hands with a little help from a pitt bull and a knife.

Besides, do you really honestly think a 200-500 grain slug fom an airgun moving at say 700-800 fps has less penetratration and exansion that a little tiny 40 grain .22lr bullet going about 1,200 fps?  I guess you never heard of a 50-70 or a 45-70 blackpowder cartridge before.  I cant argue with ignorance, nevermind you are the expert.

: RE: WELL ?????????????????????????????
: melloroadman September 20, 2008, 08:28:51 AM

Just remember they are like over grown possums . Head counts don't count . There is not enough gray matter in it . The heart is the place to hit and would I with my 9. mm Career ? When and if I get good enough with it to know every shoot is going to go were I need it to go then yes . Until then no not unless I have a trusting back up person along . I'm to old to run and climb trees .Marvin

: RE: WELL ?????????????????????????????
: johncedarhill September 20, 2008, 10:28:35 AM

They will be singing your praises for years to come like Davy Crockett. Of course you could just "grin" him or her into submission. As I recall Rambo got one with a knife but he did build a pit. Sorry I just could not resist. BTW the link I supplied to Impact Air Guns picture is a 600 pounder as I recall.

: I usually get 'em with a piece of wire and a prayer....
: DanoInTx September 20, 2008, 03:17:30 PM

.....ok, so I've never got one, but IF I DID get one with nothing more than a piece of bailing wire to wrap around its neck, then, well, THAT would be something:)

: N/T
: melloroadman September 20, 2008, 03:36:46 PM

N/T

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 20, 2008, 04:00:08 PM

I'll be your backup for hunting hogs with an airgun. I'll be about 30 ft back and 30 ft to one side, with my .444 Outfitter and my .44 mag Redhawk. I may even bring my Buckingham gaffs, saddle, and flipline, because feral hogs are ill tempered and well armored. I'd shoot a small hog with a big bore PCP, but nothing over 150 pounds. Even then I'd have my .44 as a backup.
I want to shoot one with my .50 cal flintlock, and even with that, I'd have the .44 as a backup, and some good running shoes, or my climbing gear.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 20, 2008, 04:10:39 PM

Have you actually seen what their tusks do? They look dull but they're sharp and cut just like straight razors. They don't gore you, they slash you. A cut femoral artery will kill you in less than a minute. Their tusks are at just the right height.  Like my dad always said, If everyone else was going to jump off a cliff, would you?
You have to remember, domestic hogs go feral quickly. They grow hair and tusks ofter within a couple of months of getting loose. Big difference between shooting one of those hairy former domestic hogs on a canned hunt, and hunting a true feral hog on a real hunt. Remember, stupid is as stupid does. Going after a hog with a pit bull and a knife is uber stupid. It may be a great way to feel like Billy Bad@ss, but it's a great way to get yourself killed. Do you realize that Hogs will EAT you?  I'm not talking Hollywood BS either. I'm talking about real people. My ex-girlfriend had an uncle who had a heart attack while feeding his (domestic, tame) hogs. By the time he was found, the hogs had eaten half of him.
People have killed moose with .22LR but that doesn't mean we need to be fool enough to try.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: melloroadman September 20, 2008, 04:28:15 PM

Jeremy you are right in what you say . But most of these kills are men perched in tree stands or tie in trees and shooting at a pig they have laid food out for at a distance of less than 5 yards. There is a big difference in being at ground level with this dangerous animal while out shooting squires or what ever .Marvin

: That was uncalled for, Jon...
: daved September 21, 2008, 05:43:27 AM

I never claimed to be an expert, and calling me ignorant is just being rude.  "Well over 100 pounds" tells me we're talking apples and oranges, you're talking wild pigs while I'm thinking boar.  Although even then, I consider taking a 100+ pound animal with a 40 fpe rifle irresponsible, but that's my OPINION, nothing more.  In other words, I wouldn't do it in anything but a survival situation.  And BTW, a stock Talon isn't a 40 fpe rifle, so I don't know what you mean by rifles "much less powerful".  Are you and your pals shooting pigs with springers?

I asked you to cite your sources, and you bring in the venerable 45-70 Gov't.  The standard black powder loading was a 405 gr. bullet at approx. 1300 fps, that's over 1500 fpe.  A Dragon Slayer launches a 200 gr. slug at around 570 fps, that's only 144 fpe.  And your numbers of 40 gr. at 1200 fps works out to 128 fpe.  So what's your point?  You made some statements that I asked you to back up with something other than your opinion, instead of doing so, you make irrelevant comments and get rude.  And I notice that J is conspicuous by his absence from this discussion, although I'm certainly willing to accept him as an expert when it comes to big bores.  In the future, it might behoove you to have a few facts on tap before calling someone else ignorant.  Later.

Dave

: Just busy. Been way behind due to circumstances.
: 3n00n September 21, 2008, 10:20:00 AM

Rain and water problems beenslowing me down, and I oftenget on the keyboard whenrain happens.

`

I'm sure Jon is referring to Taylor knock out values. Alot of difference between a small high velocity slug and a larger lower velocity slug.

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/tkochart.html (http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/tkochart.html)

`

Animals are made up of primarily water, and the larger thehydraulic displacement, the higher the 'knockout' value. Another interesting thing is velocity versus the target depth. Thicker targets absorb more energy, and if the slug stops just under the skin on the opposite side of the quarry, then it typically won't run at all. A few hundred fpe will knock the wind out of most critters, and with a terminal wound channel, there is little likelihood of the animal 'getting back up' once it has fallen.

`

Would I hunt hog with a 9mm Condor? Probably as effective as a Fire 201. Would I hunt hog with an Airhog .25"cal Condor? With the Airhog Condor printing 1" groups at 105 yards, I'd feel safe in precision shot placement, so again, yes.

`

Would I hunt hog with a Talon? Probably not, since the valve doesn't flow fast enough, or with enough air volume to create energy levels that I consider sufficient for hog.

`

40 fpe does seem kinda low for hog, although with excellant shot placement, would be terminal. Both points have validity, and my real concern when hunting is terminal performance. The .457" DAQ pistol is shooting a 500grain slug at 650fps, so I really don't feel that velocity is king. At 450+fpe the power isn't on the level as the .457" BBBob Destroyer shooting a 370grain slug at about 900fps, but the ram dropped (http://"http://www.bigboreairguns.com/bbaonline2.wmv) and the bunny ran (http://www.bigboreairguns.com/jacksmack.wmv). What does that mean? Not much, because both were terminal shots, but I didn't have to follow bloodtrail . . . (http://airgunhome.com/agforum/images/smiles/shrug.gif)

Not nearly as much hydraulic displacement on the bunny, though, because there is simplyless thereto displace.

: RE: Just busy. Been way behind due to circumstances.
: daved September 21, 2008, 11:07:34 AM

Thanks, J, I appreciate the response.  I've heard of the Taylor knock out values, and I'm also sure that's what Jon was referring to.  And I'd have had no issue if he'd posted that same link, or something similar.  And, despite my previous posts, I'm also well aware that a large low velocity slug can be much more effective than a small high velocity one, despite apparent energy similarities.

I just got peeved at his snotty attitude, when I said right at the beginning of my initial post that it was my OPINION that air rifles weren't suitable for hunting hogs.  Calling me ignorant when he can't be bothered to verify the facts behind his claims doesn't do much for his credibility.  I never claimed to be an expert, although when I do post something here, I either make sure my facts are verifiable, or make it clear I'm posting an opinion.  And the fact of the matter is, I've made it a point to learn a hell of a lot about air guns in the last 2+ years, either first hand or by reading and asking questions on the forums.  And I try to pass on what I've learned when I can.  But I'm pretty sure I've never called anyone ignorant, no matter how many times I've seen the same question, or disagreed with someone's information.  Anyway, thanks again.  Later.

Dave

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 21, 2008, 11:17:47 AM

I would just hate for any of the brethren to get grievously wounded or killed by a peeved porker, due to being under gunned. Accuracy is king but it won't do any good without enough power to penetrate through the vitals, preferably breaking both shoulders and crippling it, and deliver a quick, humane kill.

: I really hope.......
: DanoInTx September 21, 2008, 04:10:48 PM

.....that no-one took me seriously.  I have not, would not, could not, with a fox or in a box tackle a ferrel hog and try to strangle it with a piece of wire, I was joking, it just sounded like the "Rambo" thing to do.  Maybe if a were a Ninja I could kick him to death with my China flat shoes:)

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: gamo2hammerli September 22, 2008, 01:12:56 AM

DanoInTx, you would be my new hero if you did that....

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 22, 2008, 10:27:37 AM

I'd salute you if you could do that.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: DanoInTx September 22, 2008, 12:06:24 PM

DanoInTx, you would be my new hero if you did that....

I'd salute you if you could do that.

Ok, nuttin' better to do, ...........say your prayers Hogzilla!!!

Don't try this at home:)

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 23, 2008, 12:45:28 PM

I gotta nice Booee(Bowie) knife you can use, if needed. It has a 13.5" long, razor sharp blade made of high carbon steel. Now, that's a knife.  I also brought home a leaf spring off an 18 wheeler, and I hope to make my own cutlery out of it. Gonna take some serious forging, it's mighty thick in spots, as I'm sure any truckers or truck mechanics here can affirm.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: gamo2hammerli September 24, 2008, 12:46:54 AM

Do you play hockey?......Use some of those equipment like shin, elbow guards and jock strap while strangling the hog....they might save some important body parts.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo September 24, 2008, 12:36:51 PM

Ya may also want to wear some snake chaps or something to keep them from cutting your femoral artery if they tusk you in the thigh.

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: spark22 September 25, 2008, 05:12:59 PM

I got just the hog for ya down at the trinity river bottoms this 700lb russian has kept me out of my fishing hole for years 1st encoutner with him I that it was a loose cow till it snorted and charged and followed me out of the rock quarry for over a mile, was wondering what the heck was digging all these small holes as I walked through there and now I know!

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: gamo2hammerli September 27, 2008, 02:43:21 AM

Darn, what's this world coming to?   You'll need to carry a .44 Magnum with you when you go fishing!!!!!

: Re: Talon SS to 9mm?
: Jaymo October 02, 2008, 03:15:18 PM

I got something for that porker. It's called a 310 grain wide, flat nosed .44 slug from a .444 Marlin. If that doesn't do it, there are 5 more in the magazine. If those don't do it, the Redhawk holds 6 rounds of .44 mags with the same bullets. If even that doesn't do it, well, I guess you're on your own, and I'm looking for a good climbing tree.