GTA

Politics and Religion => Politics And Religion Discussion => : Big_Bill November 04, 2008, 04:44:40 PM

: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Big_Bill November 04, 2008, 04:44:40 PM

With only30% of the people, here in the Colonies supporting the American Revolution, I can be surprised that Our Country has stood this long.

If a vote had been taken back in 1770, we would all still being singing "Hail to the Queen: today.

Now that the Liberal Socialists are in power, how long can OUR Republic stand. Soon we will be tested, even those that have voted for Osama, will find the promises that they voted for, will fail to materialize. Words...JUST Words.....Words to lead the sheeple to flock to his free handouts. Stimulus Plans that will only profit His party and friends, and never for those that voted for him.

I feel that the "dark ages" will again engulf us, and our enemies will rejoice as we are led astray, by Osama.

God...... PLEASE HELP US ALL !

Bill

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BELSS AMERICA
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 04, 2008, 04:51:51 PM

Not shure God will help Uncle Bill,,, The American people are on thier own I fear:? Get ready for the change you all wanted. Hmmmmm. Tim.

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 04, 2008, 08:40:22 PM

Well, Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore . . .  or welcome comrads to the new USSA.

: It has aleady started....
: Bhawanna November 04, 2008, 11:53:48 PM

Russia announced this morning they are building a new missile site.  how stratigic of them to wait for the elections to finish!!  GOD HELP US!!!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: daveshoot November 05, 2008, 12:18:21 AM

We survived two Clinton terms, and Carter. We're still Americans and we'll survive this, too. Fall back to the next phase line and regroup.
We'll never know if Hillary would've been worse. Maybe that's some comfort.
"Our" side were truly the architects of their own defeat, with much help from the media. Republicans did not make much of their majority and did not package their message well. History may be kinder to W than the present, but he was a very poor communicator (don't think he saw the need) and that will cost us all for the next 4.
By 2012 we should find a better candidate. Maybe Sarah can work on her international credentials... I still think she was great.

: This is a great day for America.
: timofb November 05, 2008, 12:38:31 AM

That means that we will see  free health care sometime soon. Just like in other normal places. So hopefully when you get sick you and your family don't have to sell everything you got.

And I am glad he won  I voted for Obama and I hope it works out, and they will let the man do his job.

: Nothing is FREE....Duh?
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 12:45:30 AM

Free health care?......someone has to pay for it....NOTHING IS FREE!....paying more taxes to cover FREE health care is NOT FREE!..JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!...wake up people!  free health care is the START of SOCIALISM!!.....damnit!...i'm getting mad already and i haven't finished my first cup of coffee!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: riflejunkie November 05, 2008, 12:49:25 AM

The Republicans did in fact squander their power.  Much as many folks don't want to hear it, many americans are turned off by the fundamentalist connection to the republican party.  
Something I find VERY interesting is this; my family is almost totally libertarian but every time an election comes around none of us vote libertarian because it seems tantamount to voting for The one of the other 2 candidates that we fear the most.  That holds true regardless of which party we wind up voting for.  My daughter connected her fear with the evangelical leanings of the republican campaign and I feared the bigger socialist government and dishonesty of claims of supporting the second amendment .  In udder woids the Dems and Repubs have a divide and conquer program which will forever keep us from getting our government back.  
I can't for the life of me figure out how so many people can vote republican one time and turn around and vote socialist the next time.  All I can guess is that they see Mcain/Palin as a continuation of W.

: RE: This is a great day for America.
: TCups November 05, 2008, 01:01:20 AM

Oh boy, free healthcare!  Now all that has to be done is to do is figure out how government will pay for it and manage the health care benefits.  Tax the rich? (Like the Medicare Tax that is on every paycheck in America now).  Tax corporations?  Fine them if they don't provide the coverage to employees!  Unionize everyone and do for the rest of American workers what we did for the UAW retirees -- free healthcare for life.  That has worked out pretty well for Chrysler, GM, Ford, American Motors, Catepillar, etc. Just that those jobs disappeared along with the industries that employed them.  But what the heck, government can spend a few hundred billion more and bail out the auto industry if things get dismal.  Why didn't someone think of this earlier!  Socialized medicine.  Gee, I wonder if there are other examples of countries where this works well and medical care standards are better than the USA?  Let me think about that some more. . .  Hmmmmm, Canada?  France?  United Kingdom?   Oh, hey, now I remeber something else:  1964 -- Lyndon B. Johnson -- the "Great Society",  Medicare.  Didn't we already fix this once?  Do you remember the "credibility gap?"  Government run health care may be a good thing.  Heck, just ask any veteran.  Know I will sleep better tonight here in the USSA.

Enough!  The great social experiment has started.  Enjoy the fruits.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 05, 2008, 01:18:13 AM

There are no "republicans".  Only Republicans.   Bush and McCain were never Conservatives and were "Republicans" only in name as it is currently defined, as are most of our elected politicians.  The last Conservative President elected was Ronald Regan.  God I miss him.  But hey, a new day, a new dawn and best of all, change (which is what will be left in the paychecks of those still working -- change, when the new American Socialism runs its full course).  But hey, the government will surely manage the wealth of our nation wisely (Adam Smith was an idiot) and will soon be taking care of all of us.  Our banks, our industry, our schools, our jobs, our health care, our retirement.  "Ask not what your country can do for you -- demand it!"   New Deal, New Frontier, Great Society etc.  etc.  Oh Boy, Obama.  Now we can all come together.  Here come ol' flattop, he come groovin' up slowly . . .

I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more, Toto.

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgunandy November 05, 2008, 01:23:35 AM

Wonder how long it will be before we lose our 2nd Amendment rights to even have airguns let alone firearms.
Or our 1st Amendment rights to speak of any kind of guns on an open internet forum....

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: daveshoot November 05, 2008, 01:32:54 AM

I too miss Ronald Reagan. He was the Great Communicator because he was so good at explaining the "why" behind conservatism, why America is different and why that is better for everyone and not just the rich. It is always true but it ALWAYS needs to be sold, over and over again.
He could explain why free health care is such a great royal shafting. You see another generation already thinking "free" has got to be good. Criminey.
And yeah, the billions thrown at the ghettos in the Great Society and since have sure made for nicer ghettos, haven't they?
That is the worst legacy of the social experimenters. After their schemes fail at great expense, we are still left with the administrative institutions in place, still sucking up and dispersing our money. These programs and their administrators and budgets never go away. They are just augmented by new ones, to keep "curing" the problems, and "sharing" my alleged wealth.
But when the Republicans had nominal control, not a darn thing was done to pare this waste. They bought into the system and horse-traded for votes. The attitude on the war was simply that is was unpatriotic to oppose it, and that was not a strong argument to begin wiith. There were excellent reasons that needed to be sold over and over to the doubtful and uncommitted, and this needed to be done simply but intelligently.
It is no wonder that many voters without definite ideologies (who don't distinguish between Repubs and conservatism) went for the "clearer" message of change. And that is why the Republican party squandered its time in office and then gave it away.
And the pendulum will swing left from the center, instead of from the right, where it should and could have been. Ugh.

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: WBZsDAD November 05, 2008, 01:39:47 AM

It was a brilliant platform to run on........There are way more people in this Country that are too sorry to work, or think government will solve their problems (Compared to people that have ambition to better themselves with hard work and an entrepreneurial work ethic) so those people went nuts went they heard they were going to get something for free from the people who make America roll.

Some are too stupid to realize that the "free thing" is going to set them back and some don't really care what happens as long as they can get something free.

Let me present this scenario using the small business spread the wealth around deal......

Back when I was a Concrete Contractor, there was a time I was doing 30 complete residential masonry packages every month. 30 footers, 30 floor slabs, 30 block walls, 30 lentil beams, 30 driveways, etc etc I did this with an average of 30 employees (the rest were subs). That's one house per day.

Under this scenario I am already paying plenty of taxes. Now if you are going to take more of my money to give a handout to the people I am already paying well, and to people who are laying around doing nothing but waiting till 10am so they can head down to the stoe to drink beer and sneaking around at night stealing my tools and equipment. There is no way I would continue to be subjected to huge liabilities just to be taxed to death.

The result.......I cut back, lay people off. Doesn't sound like that will create jobs to me.

: RE: Nothing is FREE....Duh?
: timofb November 05, 2008, 01:55:33 AM

Hey, so you  would rather pay to insurance company monthly, that will deny treatment or cancel your coverage because of a chronic illness if one arises? That won't authorize medication that can save your life, by saying it is not FDA approved or they think it is not medically necessary. Yet you have no problem that all of Congress, your state officials and the president has free health care that you pay for.

I would rather pay higher taxes  like the Europeans do to live a better life (and by the way they are capitalist) but I would know that if something happens I will be covered. That I  will get help me or my loved one, and know that doctors will not just let you suffer in emergency room, because you don't have the right kind of health insurance. I lived this s..t man, every minute of it. Made me think a whole a lot different about America. Whether this country is Christian, Have you  payed $1000 for a blood test, or $750 for 30 pills?, all  that is free in Europe.


Some of you have to stop being ignorant. Because you folks are already in minority, and come 2012 there will be even less Sarah Palin fans.

: timofb.........then move.......
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 02:34:00 AM

if you rather pay taxes like europeans......THEN MOVE TO EUROPE!!!!!!!!!...i pay health insurance premiums every month and get the treatment that family needs and i'm happy with that because i pay for MY FAMILY'S health care with the money that I EARN!!....go to canada, mexico, or southeast asia if you want treatment that is not FDA APPROVED!!!  IGNORANCE IS YOUR POLICTICAL BELIEFS!!! maybe that's why you live in californina?...its obvious that YOU are one of the persons with your hand sticking out waiting for someone (who pays their own way) to take care of them....you wanted change? maybe your "moma-obama" will take care of you!!

: RE: timofb.........then move.......
: Curioguy November 05, 2008, 02:44:33 AM

Oh, goody, goody, I want to be just like the Europeans. Why in the heck did my grandparents leave Utopiafor this oppressive “downright mean country”? Now I really hate them for that! OK, I know that things are different now than they were 100+ years ago. And all that blood that was shed during WW2 wasn’t in vain. Call me old sentimental fool who lives in the past; I know that I deserve it. So let’s all kiss and make up so that we can all live under “one world order” were life will be beautiful, bountiful and the evil rich, like of George Soros, will pay for everything . (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-money-mouth.gif)

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 05, 2008, 03:12:46 AM

Brilliance?  Or more money than ever spent on a Presidential campaign in our history?  Or unfettered media bias in favor of one candidate?  Or ACORN assisted voting?  Or voter ignorance? . . .

If there was an organized intelligence driving Obama's election campaign strategy, it was surely enumerated best and most concisely by Saul Alinsky in "Rules for Radicles"   Haven't read it?  You should.  It outlines the recipe for social revolution working inside the American political system by co-opting the middle class to support the underclass and discrediting any who oppose by ridicule of their leadership and coercion.  Explains why most Americans oppose change except in time of crisis and how to go about fomenting a crisis to achieve political ends.  Great reading.  Something like this:  Discredit Bush.  Jack gasoline prices up precipitously weeks before the election to trigger financial collapse of the subprime lending markets and eventually the entire financial system, blame Bush and the Republicans for the entire mess, and promise "Change" and "New Directions", and have the new government sweep in to power to "fix" the crisis.  Revolution with no shots fired.  Gotta love Saul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_for_Radicals

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: PeakChick November 05, 2008, 03:17:59 AM

Well, I'm usually remiss to comment on political threads but this whole election process has exhausted me and I'll vent one last time. I know Tommy thinks I'm a liberal, but I didn't drink the Kool-Ade and vote with the uninformed masses. Nonetheless it appears the majority was sorely tempted by the offered beverage of "Change."  
So, the Democratic Party has the Oval Office and a majority in both houses of Congress. Let's see how badly they can muck things up. Of course, they will just blame their woes on inheriting all the problems that the Republican Party supposedly created and that party's interference in their quest for "reform" and "change."
I love the references to "free," "universal" health care mentioned previously in this thread. Apparently some folks have never been to Europe or any other country that has a socialized medicine system and tried to obtain health care there. I have seen countless horror stories of waiting lists, fighting for beauraucratic approval for care and treatment, beauraucratic denial of care with no recourse for appeal, etc. Oh, "free?"  I'm not sure the folks who espouse the "benefits" of the semi-socialism that exisits in Europe really understand just how much of their income it costs them in taxation....Can you think interms of 50-60% of your income?
Ah well, we'll see what comes down the pike.........

: well said peakchick....
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 03:33:05 AM

60% taxation, $8 a gallon gas, no right to own a firearm, limit airguns to 12lbs, limited freedom of speech, 12% unemployment, outrageous real estate pricing.....BUT THEY HAVE FREE HEALTH CARE!!!...

: More interesting smoke and mirrors.
: 3n00n November 05, 2008, 04:28:52 AM

Gee? I wonder what's in store for us next?

`

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1954933468700958565&hl=es (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1954933468700958565&hl=es)

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 05, 2008, 05:02:42 AM

Dear, sweet PeakChick:

I have no problem with liberals.  It would perhaps surprise you to hear some of my social positions.  But I am a staunch, free market physical conservative.  I love my country, but I fear my government.  I feared our government under Bush 43, Clinton, and Bush 41, even under Regan, and certainly under Carter.  I fear continued unfettered expansion of government, government spending, taxation, and intrusion in all areas of the free market and a nation of "Free" people.  Those "Freedoms" came at a very, very dear price and should never be squandered.  I fear the change, the speed with which government is about to grow and spread, will come like a fatal malignancy.  I fear socialism disguised a "Change" and served up on a platter for those too weak minded to understand or to resist what has been lost (no, surrendered) in the name of "Change".

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 05, 2008, 05:33:43 AM

I attempted to submit my opinion to this topic & decided not to,,,,,only because I  know that it would create waves :o

I just have one simple question,,,maybe two:
1) If McCain had won ,would he be acknowledged as: The 44th White-American President ? :o      ANSWER: NO
Explain: It would be considered: RACIST!!!!!

2A) Why is Obama acknowledged as:  The first African-American President, instead of The President Elect ?  :o  ANSWER: TO BE DETERMINED.

2B) Is Obama not also White-American ?   ANSWER:  YES

2C) Does he not consider himself to be White-American? ANSWER: WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Explain:  YES WE CAN!!!!!!!!

                                                           :o  :p  :emoticon:  :D

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Gene_SC November 05, 2008, 06:43:23 AM

My good friend's and buddy's Stephanie, Bill and Tommy have exposed what has been hanging behind the curtain for the last year..:) Oh and of couse the Democrats are for socialized medicine and those people who voted the way they did will be crying before long about the paychecks they now get do not go as far as they did in 2008..:) Those are the same people who voted themselves into higher taxation. Democrats for the most part are for bigger government as well. That means more useless programs to spend our hard earned money. I should be the last one to complain because I am retired and pay no taxes any longer.Of course I do pay house taxes and taxes on everything I buy.  But my children work and are a long ways from retirement and they are gonna have it very hard. And the word CHANGE is one big word that means let us suffer with the consequences.

I could say allot more but do not want to get this topic going out of hand.

: definition of change.....
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 06:51:58 AM

Change......Creating..Huge...And...Numerous...Government...Expenditures..

: you guys should watch Michael Moore films
: timofb November 05, 2008, 10:22:54 AM

some of you guys should start by watching Michael Moore films that's 1st, he lays it all out there how it is with facts.  One of his last films is about health care and it is the truth I have experienced. And perhaps some people you know had to deal with this. The sick truth. Gestapo like health care system for profit. Someone profits while you suffer. And please don't call yourself Christians or Passionate Conservatives (still don't know what that means by the way, I love god but i have no problems voting for the war and killing 200,000 Iraqi civilians) if you support this type of health care that we have.

But then again some of you may like paying for insurance companies CEO's jets or Sara Palin clothing worth 150k. But hey she will post for some of you with a gun just to make you feel better spening your tax dollars.

And another thing Obama got 60% of electoral votes, that means if it were direct elections he would have gotten like 90%. That means something. America is changing for the better... I hope so.

: Ahhhh, Michael Moore........That explains it
: WBZsDAD November 05, 2008, 10:33:34 AM

Ahhhh, Michael Moore........That explains it

'Nuff said

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: daveshoot November 05, 2008, 11:13:49 AM

Gestapo like health care system? Not sure what you know about the Gestapo, but that is overstated to the point of being meaningless. I reckon you meant "expensive" and it just came out as "Gestapo". Were you tortured or imprisoned, or did you just feel ripped off in some way? Are there any degrees of appropriate rhetoric? Once the government gets involved, the rhetoric may be more apt. Every new law and every new tax is another reason for a Federal gun in your face someday. Don't pay your new tax and you will find out. But then, only the payers will need to worry about this one. There will be more.

edited to point out this just appeared under PeakChick's post but was a polite response to timofb's post.

: Sara Wears Wall Mart Genes,,,,,,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 11:19:15 AM

NOT 150 K clothes. She is a rock. You want change ,,, she would have brought it on!!  Being the male "Pig" I have been most of my life,,, I can understand the penis challenged being threatened by her :o  I  respect her & hope to see her again soon. This is a woman that "Could Have,,, Got Er Done!! Dont throw rocks in YOUR OWN GLASS room Folks. :0  Dont give me that superficial "Gun Thing"  This "Chick" is for real!! 8)  The majority has spoken,,,,,,,, who the Hell were they by the way???? I hope Sara stays VERY active. And John,,,,, an American HERO... A veteran of War,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Do you really think he had less than the best interest at heart for this GREAT Country?????? Course,,,,, "Everyone" said he was another George Bush:? Yeah,,,, George Bush is the ONLY reason for our latest problems,,,, GROW UP FOLKS!!!!!!! :p  Yeah,,,,,,, I guess "King George" caused it all:? Makes me sick to see the disrepect the "Sheeple" put upon George ,,,,,,, "W" as you call him.  He aint perfect,,,, check yer closets folks. I dont care who the president is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I show respect,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Im still gonna do that. Lets get this "Change" on the way,,,, Im waiten:???????? Oh,,,,, I do place my hand on my HEART during the Pledge,,,,,,I do remember "A Moment of Silence",,,,& I have NO PROBLEM with wearing the Flag of my Country!!!!!!!! Free health care?? Only BRAIN DEAD people can believe something so rediculous. I am however,, goin to get me some "Free" food stamps now,,,,,,, gonna make my truck payments with em!!LOL!! :emoticon:  I dont know squat bout politics,,, I did however stay at Holiday Inn last night!!   Tim.

: RE: you guys should watch Michael Moore films
: TCups November 05, 2008, 11:27:20 AM

Well, in my opinion, Al Franken is more the intellectual type than Michael More, but perhaps you are correct.  Hope! Change! Here's to your (public) health, sir.

: Hey Tim,
: timofb November 05, 2008, 11:55:56 AM

Tim I know that there is nothing FREE in this world. Government money is our money. All I am saying is this, instead of paying money to health insurance companies that run the medical operations, they tell doctor's what to do, they don't pay em, dump sick people, deny people insurance with pre existing condition and... on and on. I experienced this, believe me it is horrible.

I am saying that instead of paying monthly for health insurance that is not made for the people but to rip people off, we can all  pay into one Medicaid fund or something. So everyone gets covered and gets timely treatment. Just like we have police and fire department when you need help they come, they don't ask you. "And what type of insurance do you have?" Comes out of our tax dollars, but do you have a problem with this? And I would be willing to pay for someone that can't pay $150 or so, so  people will have regular check ups, to  catch problems early. You guys speak how bad the Europeans have it, but United States has the worst health care system out of all the western nations that costs 3 times as much, because of who the insurance companies, and greedy doctors, that are not even doctor's more like car salesman.

If you are fine with this all I can tell you, is I hope that not you and no one in your family gets very ill so you don't have to experience this. Believe me food stamps won't do it. And they don't give it everybody that easy lik ethey say. They won't even pay social security this freaken government you have to hire an attorney to get your money.

: Hey "Other Tim",,,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 12:14:58 PM

Buddy,,,, I mean NO disrespect AT ALL!! :o  Im not a political guy. HONEST!!  Must be pretty obvious from my posts that I dont have NEARLY the edumication level of MANY here. Thats ok with me. I HONESTLY mean NO disrespect to Ya,,,, HONESTLY. I hope things work out. We can disagree on politics but still be Friends:? :emoticon:  Im not that biased Buddy,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I did live in Cal. for a while!! (On the Pro surfing tour) :emoticon:  All BS aside,,,,, we are both here at GTA cause we have a common interest/hobby. That bonds us. Im Man enough to stay Friends with my Buddys,,,even if we dont agree on politicsLOL!! :p  Tim.

: RE: Hey Tim,
: TCups November 05, 2008, 12:19:03 PM

Hey Timfob:

Please don't publicly call all doctors greedy, as I and most hard-working doctors will take great offense to that, and I will reciprocate by not publicly pointing out that I think you are an angry but clueless idiot, OK?  Let's just keep these personal opinions to ourselves and refrain from such offensiveness on a public forum.  Thank you so much for your consideration.

tec

: Michael Moore health care....Hollywood again!!!
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 12:46:56 PM

i don't know what those earthquakes have rattled loose or maybe the wild fires have scorched the insulation of some wires!!!!!  next "hollywood" will want whoopie goldberg to be secretary of state and jerimiah wright as comrade of defense.........!!!  i can't take anymore of this today!!

: Of All the Doctors I have Met,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 12:49:07 PM

TEC is one of the most "Down To Earth" ones I have met. Oh who am I kiddin,,, Tommy is a STRAIGHT PLAYER 100%!! Yeah shure Tommy is WAYYYYYYYYYY smarter than me,,,, dont matter,,,on the tailgate of my truck messin with airguns,,,,I felt like I was on his level:? I envy those of you with high education,,,, Im just a Redneck from South Carolina,,,, I shure do know a Rattle Snake when I see one though!! :p  Sorry Tommy,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, You said "Doctor",,,I gave my word & never said "Dr.":? That being said,,,,,,,,I gots a little problem with my hiney,,,,,can Ya look at it?? (No close lookin!!) :p  Course its gonna be "Free" aint it,,,,,, new world order and all?? :emoticon:  Tim.

: Boy...you have no pride...
: Bhawanna November 05, 2008, 12:56:24 PM

i can't believe you posted your hiney problem on the internet!!....don't you have any shame?...ha!!!  take two aspirin and a tucks pad and call him in the morning!

: Free
: WBZsDAD November 05, 2008, 12:56:53 PM

It's the people that ALREADY get free health care/treatment (or refuse to pay) that make the cost of health care/insurance so high in the first place.

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: JOHNNY QUEST November 05, 2008, 01:01:29 PM

Hey a squirrel.. I just saw a Squirrel...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 01:13:39 PM

Just GREAT,,, A "Mofioso" SQ.!!!!! Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Say Hello To My Little Friend"!!!!! (Pick any of my airguns) Vinnie.

: RE: Hey Tim,
: airgun/cuz November 05, 2008, 01:17:41 PM

Tim,,,,you are willing to pay $150 plus whatever taxes you pay so that someone that can't afford a check-up would be able to see a doctor,,,,,,,,,,So where is the free health ins........we already pay into medicaid,unless they don't in California,,,,,,Tim not to be a wise guy but you can't even die for free,,,,,,,,,,,Truth is you voted for someone who has only his best interest in mind,,,,do you really believe that he gives a rats butt about you,,,,,,,,if you do,I got an offer for you that you can't refuse,,,I got a buddy that can get you a great deal on THE BROOKLYN BRIDGE,,,,,let me know what you think! :o

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: JOHNNY QUEST November 05, 2008, 01:38:46 PM

Timmyj1959@yahoo.com - 11/5/2008  8:13 PM

Just GREAT,,, A "Mofioso" SQ.!!!!! Well,,,,,,,,,,,,,"Say Hello To My Little Friend"!!!!! (Pick any of my airguns) Vinnie.

 I WUZ TRYING TO CHANGE THA DAM SUBJECT  But now that I know about the hinnie thing... Lets proceeed// :p

: Lets Get This Straight,,,,,,,,,,,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 01:50:08 PM

There is more than one "Tim"    Sorry Joe,,, I know Ya were not addresing me. :p  We are Buddys!! 8)  As per our ph. conversation,, I may come up for a visit Just remember: You may be a big ole "Bear",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I have seen "Lil Ole Bob Cats" WREAK HAVOK!!!!!!! 8)  I cant wait  to get up there & "Take You Out!!" :p  You DONT WANT any part of me Joe,,,, & you thought Ticks were bad:?????  Tim.

: RE: Lets Get This Straight,,,,,,,,,,,,
: airgun/cuz November 05, 2008, 02:03:18 PM

just called you a few mins. ago...call me later or tomorrow!!!    when are you heading up this way? Hope you got some free health ins. :o

: RE: Boy...you have no pride...
: TCups November 05, 2008, 02:12:18 PM

I had always thought Tim M was one of the GTA's more perfect  a s s es.  But now the truth is exposed, so to speak.

: RE: Boy...you have no pride...
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 05, 2008, 02:20:05 PM

You mean me Tommy???? What did I say:?   Tim M. :0

: RE: Boy...you have no pride...
: TCups November 05, 2008, 02:26:18 PM

Yo, Pogo Timmy.  LOL.  Just kidding.  Responding to Roger about your "Hiney" post, bro.  Anyway, sorry, dude, but I only specialize in a couple of particular organs located above the waist.  But hope you are better soon.

: RE: Of All the Doctors I have Met,,
: airgun/cuz November 05, 2008, 02:30:24 PM

Timbo,,,,,,maybe the new PREZ has a free A--hole plan that you can apply for,,,,,,I hear there are new Obama Tucks that work real good :p  :o  :D

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 05, 2008, 04:23:26 PM

whats gonna suck is how badly obama could make things for my generation...i really hate debt...:-(

well, i voted mccain, but i'm not passing judgement until obama swears in...then, all eyes are on him...for now, go enjoy what you got!

the mind of a 20 yr old...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: raterminator November 05, 2008, 05:00:28 PM

daveshoot -By 2012 we should find a better candidate. Maybe Sarah can work on her international credentials... I still think she was great.

Maybe by 2012 we will find that he isn't so bad, if color isn't an issue here.

Time will show if our new president is just a good talker or he can be a good leader too. I hope he would, because, sorry guys but McCain isn’t a leader. Being a war hero, being a war prisoner sure shows his brave character, gives him some shine, but it’s not necessary makes him a good leader. He already mislead Americans on what really happened in Republic of Georgia, how in one night Georgians managed to make ethnic cleansing in Osetia and kill 1200 sleeping people. No one talked about it here, nobody condemned that action, instead of that as McCain stated – “today we all Georgians, my friends”. What? He didn’t know what really happened there? Or taking contributions for his campaign from Georgian government makes all that excusable.
He almost dragged us back to cold war era by threatening Russia over the Georgian conflict. Brave for an old soldier, but not wise for future president.

…..and Timmy, please, stop panicking about your rights to bear the arms. Nobody is going to take your toys from you. And I don't see anything wrong in trying to keep guns out of streets, out of hands of criminals or psychopaths. I've always loved guns but I'm not egocentric and if it's necessary for safety of our children I'd rather take one step back. Aren't we supposed to worry about the safety of our children in first place? I wish I could carry a gun in New York City, but if I could, everybody else could have one too….and one of them eventually would start shooting. I’m for background checking and gun registration, so what? I live in New York and still enjoy my collection and shooting hobby.


Tim (another Tim) says he would like to have a European kind of health care and Roger's already suggesting for him to move there. What is that? My way or no way? May I have the right to have my own opinion without leaving the country I love(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-sealed.gif)?

Guys, I can tell you something interesting about healthcare in old Russia (USSR) because I lived there for 35 years. There was something good about their system I frankly wish we could adopt. I'll use past tense here, because after entering into the free marketing system, a lot of things there have been changed for the worse, because the society, laws there aren't ready for those kind of quick changes yet. OK, first of all, they helped everybody for free, regardless of the shameful allowance they were getting for their efforts (now that isn’t a part I’m suggesting to adopt). Most importantly, they always tried to find the cause of the problem, not just treat illness. The people who are standing higher on the social ladder, their family members had (I believe now too) special hospitals and the best possible special care in the country, but everybody else, without previous appointment could go to the doctor (not necessarily a bad one) with his problems. Now, if you were really sick and couldn't go to the doctor, all you needed was to call him (every borough had a doctors assigned to given area). He would come, examine you, prescribe something or call you an ambulance if there was something serious. You'd get a signed proof that you were really sick and actually were in bed, to take it to your workplace to be paid for those sick days. Now, if your kid is not feeling good or having some rash, what do we do here? Drag that poor kid to the doctors' office for check up; there are other kids waiting. And what if yours or one of those kids has a very serious infection and is contagious? Isn't that good to have him checked in the house and isolated before it's too late? Isn't it good to stay in hospital until you feel better and not have to be sent home, because your insurance is not going to cover your stay? I'm 51 years old, but still remember my family doctor sitting next to my bed, who knew all my health history from the birth. That and free college, university education are the only good things of the socialism I could remember from my past and truly appreciate.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 05, 2008, 05:07:08 PM

well, what i'm more wqorried about is that the senate is majority dem....i don't think its a good thing if either party is in control of the senate, AND pres....although, i really am interested to see how he wants to give us all of the stuff he says he will, but also lower taxes, AND keep us from getting further into debt...the way i am when it comes to politics is i listen to what they say, and then i sit back and wait to see what they actually do...come on guys...politicians(no matter what the party) are not the kinda guys you trust farther than you can throw em...thats just the truth of it.

: YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME
: kiwi November 05, 2008, 05:45:01 PM

You guys are killing me.   Sore sides from laugthing , tears rolling down me cheeks.

Heres a idea Lets start a "Doom & Gloom Gate"

Ps..I hear all you whiteys are going to be on the cotton
plantations  by the new year.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Graham November 05, 2008, 06:32:07 PM

It's pretty good reading from here too!

: Once again an over reaction...........
: mikeiniowa November 06, 2008, 01:31:23 AM

I've only been a voter for a few decades but have seen the over reaction from the loosing party everytime, please think about what you say before posting, looking at the reaction of the rest of the world to the results of the election it might be a good time to back off and think.....

: RE: Once again an over reaction...........
: riflejunkie November 06, 2008, 02:25:13 AM

Howdy Mike,
Considering that we here are all "gun people" and considering Obama's voting record and considering that ALL of the gun control hysteria comes from the Democrats it's a no brainer that we see a dark cloud.  While dark clouds may not guarantee rain they are a better indication than clear skys.
The republicans deserved to lose this election.  George W. spent more maoney than a democrat, couldn't speak and John McCain could have picked a better VP running mate.
Get me a decent conservative that doesn't embrace the Bob Jones University mentality and doesn't think the State of the Union address is the proper place to discuss gay marriage.  There are more important things for America to be worried about than who kisses who.

: RE: Once again an over reaction ??????
: Curioguy November 06, 2008, 02:28:02 AM

Oh yes, lets just have the rest of the world like us and there will be peace and prosperity though out the land of Oz.  Now that’s the way we should all be looking at the good ol USA.  Sell our sovereignty to the highest bidder (I think we are already on a fast track there).  No, let’s just give it away. Then the world will really love us.   Heck, I don’t want the world to love us I just want them to respect us.  Yes I’m an old coot too and have voted more times than I can remember.  But I do remember those wonderful, thriving  Carter years and I don’t wish to repeat them.   Furthermore, for those on the outside who seem amused by the reactions of some of us over this election, I think I understand where you are coming from:  Misery loves company!  Why not knock those arrogant Americans down a couple of notches so that they can enjoy the fruits of “soft socialism”.   Lastly, if I remember correctly, there are still more people trying to enter the USA than there are those fleeing to greener pastures beyond our borders.  

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: raterminator November 06, 2008, 03:16:15 AM

Can’t agree with you, Gary.
If they not love you, they’re not going to respect you. Respect over the fear, if that’s what you stand for, could bring you very unpleasant and unexpected reactions.

: RE: Once again an over reaction...........
: TCups November 06, 2008, 04:52:40 AM

Mike:

Respectfully, I don't really care much what the world thinks about the American political situation.  America has always been an exceptional country by most comparisons.  And I wish our new President success in international affairs. He will need it. And I won't personally trash Obama as some continue to savage Sarah Palin, even after the election.  They must fear her worse than I can possibly imagine.  Wonder why?  It is abundantly clear that were the shoe on the other foot, and a right wing conservative had been elected, then there would be no respectful restraint.  I believe "riots and blood running in the streets" were promised by more than one pundit, even in response to McCain/Palin.  So I entirely discount any criticism of those who choose to continue to voice opposition to President-Elect Obama's agenda, he the most extreme left elected politician in the country by all accounts.  "Govern from the Center" - my a ss!  Obama is a Socialist and America will pay a terrible price, which may be why so many of the international community applaud.  

But I, for one, will never support a Socialist agenda until the day I die, nor will I cease to voice my political opinions, shout them from the rooftop, unless God forbid, the 1st Amendment falls like a domino after the 2nd.  If you want some international critical opinion on the agenda of Socialism and what is at stake, you might read some F. A. Hayek -  "The Road to Serfdom" and "The Fatal Conceit: The Errors of Socialism" come immediately to mind.  

BTW, the stock market understands the national and international consequences of Obama's election.  Down almost 500 points yesterday and another 380 as I type.  That's about 8% in value in less than 24 hours.  The wealth of our nation (and much of the free world) is evaporating before Obama can even take office.  And once he takes office and officially starts spreading the wealth, then the real revolution starts.  You might ask yourself where trillions of dollars of wealth went and who benefits.   I fear by political design, we are now irreparably bound to suffer the worst recession since Jimmy Carter, God help us.  France, Argentina, Iran and others are cheering us on, to be sure.  The worlds free markets are teetering.  And Vladimir Putin is certainly celebrating.  You might take some time to think about some of what J. posits about the "New World Order".  Wake up, Americans.  I fear more than you can imagine that the engine that drives our economy , our national security, and our freedoms -- free market capitalism has just been kidnapped and is about to be bound, gagged and locked away.  

: RE: Once again an over reaction...........
: Big_Bill November 06, 2008, 05:15:44 AM

I agree with you totally Tommy,

And could not have said it more eloquently.

The "NEW WORLD ORDER" is upon us, and we will be it's slaves !

Bill

Live Free, or Die !

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 05:28:16 AM

hmmm....well...i guess you guys feel a little stronger about this than i do....i don't feel like its the end of life here in the us, lol, but i do think that if he does what he says he will do, it will take some time for things to be restored...anything can be corrected throughout time...like i said earlier, no point in worrying about what he might or might not do in a few months...lets just enjoy what we have, and take action in a few months when action needs to be taken...i do hope everyone is an nra member though...but for now, lets keep our blood pressure down, everyone.(hehe, i'm young, and yea, that maybe was an old person joke...sorry guys....had to...:-P).  until he does something wrong, just be happy that we live in us, where we have many things others don't have.

again, just my 20 yr old take on it...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: gamo2hammerli November 06, 2008, 05:35:03 AM

The U.S citizens (Or sheeps.....depends on who`s definition)  have spoken.  Let Obama/Democrats run the country for a term or two....and we`ll see if he/they`re better than the Reps.  Personally I was going for McCain....but then my vote/thoughts don`t count since I`m a Canuck.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 05:37:27 AM

well, i agree with your attitude, but lol, i hope it doesn't take 2 terms for us to firgure out if he is a good leader...lol, we really would be a stupid society then, haha

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: maple November 06, 2008, 06:01:21 AM

As I read through this thread I keep seeing the same issue brought up time and time again.  The 2nd amendment.  I am a gun(s) owner (rifles, shotguns, handguns, airifles and airhandguns) as is the rest of my family and we all hunt.  We are all also democrats, some liberal some moderate.  We like our guns and believe the second amendment is very important but it is not the only amendment in the Constitution.  I sickens me to see how the Constitution, the foundation of the greatest country on earth, has been abused, disregarded, ignored, and shredded by GW and his current administration, particularly the right to privacy and due process.  It also sickens me to see my blue collar job go overseas, to see manufacturing in general go overseas, to see the "redistribution" of middle class wealth over the last 30 years to the wealthiest of the wealthy while my and my wife's paychecks get stretched beyond their limits, to see corporations move overseas to avoid paying American taxes,  to see no bid contracts get handed out to the few coprporations that have politicians in their pockets, to see our troops not get the supplies needed to protect them in battle, to see the privatization of our military, the protector of our freedom, to see our troops denied the benefits they need and were promised once they are lucky enough to return home (yes, I come from a military family), to see small business owners (talk about "free" market) get snubbed out because they can't compete with the coroporate chain store that just moved in....man, I could go on and on...

My point is, or better yet, my question is, how do I afford a gun when I can barely afford gas, food, utilities, healthcare, my house payment, my car payment, etc., and I have to worry about losing my job everytime a company goes under or a corporation decides to manufacture over seas?  There is more to life than the 2nd amendment.  I voted for GW the first time, I put my faith in him and IMO he has failed.  The playing field needs to be leveled and we need an administration that will govern, not rule.  That's why I voted for Obama, and like GW, time will tell if I cast the right vote.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 06, 2008, 06:29:18 AM

Tim:
Understand your plight and your concerns.  But socialism is the wrong answer.  History clearly shows this.  A strong economy, good jobs and good private insurance are a much better answer.  Look at the world markets and ask yourself if you really think that's where this is all heading.  Think about how much trust you put in government now and how much more control you are about to surrender.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: maple November 06, 2008, 07:09:52 AM

I come from middle class America and I am middle class America.  I don't expect or want to be rich, I just want to be able to live and support my family and see that we get the things we need and some of the things we want.  I believe John McCain is a hero and a good American but I also believe he cannot relate to the everyday struggles of middle class Americans when he has no worries about how he will feed his family or get his kids the medical attention they need or how they will pay the heat bill when winter arrives if they lose their job.  For the last year I have listened to radio, watched TV, read magazines and newspapers and blogs from the Left, the Right, and the Center, watched all the debates of the primaries as well as the presidential election and I formed my opinion.  We all have our opinions and we can agree, disagree, or agree to disagree and that is one reason America is the greatest.  I don't believe we are heading toward socialism, I believe we are heading toward unity and that is what will make America strong.

By the way, are there too many Tims on this thread?  Great name but please don't confuse me for other Tims:)

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 07:16:59 AM

haha, ok, now we have to make new names for the tims so we know who we're talking to

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: maple November 06, 2008, 07:23:47 AM

When you're coming up with nicknames be kind

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 06, 2008, 07:41:54 AM

There can be and will be no "unity" on these points, Tim.  Don't delude youserf (oops, that must have actually been a Freudian typo).  Ultimately, as history will prove, there will have only been "right" and "wrong".  I may be wrong -- an irrational part of my intellect even hopes to be wrong about all of this, but I don't think so.  And my beliefs, politics and world view will never be unified with anyone of President-Elect Obama's political views, or Jeremiah Wright's views, or Karl Marx's views, or Saul Alinsky's views, etc, no matter how much "hope, unity, and change" rhetoric are fed to me.  We live in interesting times, it seems.

PS:  I come from, what in retrospect must have been lower middle class, though I never knew it when I was growing up.  And thank God that I was able to achieve what I have achieved these 50 some odd years in this great country!  It wasn't inherited, except in the sense of expectation of hard work and the attitude I was responsible for my own future.  And it certainly wasn't given to me as a government entitlement.  I hope the opportunities will always be there, for you and for all of our children, and for everyone fortunate enough to live in this great country who just wants government to get of of the way and out of our pockets and let us fail or succeed on our own merits.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: maple November 06, 2008, 08:10:02 AM

Like I said previously, we all have our own opinions.  Grouping Obama's name with others seems to be a fun pastime for a lot of people.  Who's names do you group with GW's and Cheney's?  I can think of quite a few.  People like to throw the word "socialism" around when referring to Obama as much as people like to throw around the word "dictatorship" when referring to GW.  Opinions, by definition, are not right or wrong.

You are right, as long as you think the way you do and hold the opionons you do there will be no unity, but it is your way of thinking and your opinions and I applaud you for sticking to them.  Maybe reassessing your opinions would make your irrational hopes of being wrong come true:)  Based on the outcome of the election, though, the majority of Americans don't hold those views and opinions (for now, at least).  We do live in interesting times.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 06, 2008, 08:44:02 AM

I got a nickname for the new PREZ,,,,,,,I think SLIM SHADY fits the script for a non-citizen PREZ..... :o   BTW.....Is the economy all GW fault....who knows? He obviously gets blamed on a daily basis,,,,,,,if-so what about the job he has done to keep Terrorist from attacking U.S. soil,,,,I feel pretty safe at night when I sleep,,,,,,,,last time I checked my freedom & my way of life was still in tact,,,,,,that's why I will & can say that anyone who voted for this undercover terrorist/racist/liar deserves everything they are gonna get........NOTHING!   I don't get why someone who has supported the RED  PARTY decides to jump ship & turn BLUE,,,,,,Where is the loyalaty,maybe that's the problem,,,,
McCain is a hero & loyal to this country& he has been for a very long time,,,I believe that he put the country first & he had the best interest for the country in mind,,,,,I believe SLIM SHADYS best interest was himself by becoming the first african-american prez so that he can make history...why wouldn't McCain be able to relate to you, me or whom-ever may-be middle-class,,,,yet you believe that SLIM SHADY can,,,,,,,WHY?    :o    What is wrong with expressing concerns toward the 2nd amendment,,,,I thought this was an airgun forum for people who appreciate gun/airguns.....of course he wants to ban guns,,,,this will make it easier for his terrorist cousins to take control of you & me as we get fitted for a TURBAN....LOL!! :p    OBAMA IS A JERK IN MY BOOK,,,,,,,,,,Truth is,my book is the only book that matters to me,,,we all have opinions just like we all have backside,,,,,,,I am never gonna be a BENEDICT ARNOLD,,,,I was raised RED,,,,,I will die RED,,,,,,,,,, :o

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TexasShooter72 November 06, 2008, 08:52:25 AM

This has got to be the single longest thread I think I've ever seen on this forum.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 06, 2008, 08:52:52 AM

Tim,,,you voted for GW,,,now you vote for SLIM SHADY,,,,,,a bit confusing for a New York boy like myself,,,,,,I don't see the unity in backing SLIM SHADY,yet bashing the man you voted for last time around,,,,,,what are you gonna do when SLIM SHADY let's you & your family down,,,,bash him too,,,,,,,vicious cycle,,,when does it end :o

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 06, 2008, 08:54:11 AM

Matt,,,,I think your HAIR might be the longest.... :p

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TexasShooter72 November 06, 2008, 08:55:02 AM

Now s'cuse me while I do some swearing...

BUSH, OBAMA, PELOSI, GINGRICH, MOORE, WOLFOWITZ, FILTH, FLARN, FILTH, FLARN...

Okay.  I feel better now.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 06, 2008, 09:06:01 AM

While you are surely right that truth can be a relative thing, honesty is being truthful, as best you know the truth, with others and integrity is being truthful with yourself.  

Bush and Cheney I associate with an alternative Kerry and Edwards -- I associate them with an alternative to someone who opted out of military service by getting three quick purple hearts, two of which were almost certainly self inflicted, with someone who pretended to throw away those medals and sat in on peace talks in Paris with ChiComs while others, including  some on this forum were still fighting honorably for their country, married the Heinz Ketsup fortune and then had the unmitigated gall to run representing himself as a Vietnam war hero.  And an alternative to Edwards, who, as it turns out, who is a lecherous adulterer, cheating on his very ill wife, and shyster lawyer who made his millions selectively suing OB-GYN doctors who didn't do mostly unnecessary C-sections, for multimillion dollar jury settlements on wrongful birth cases.  

Maybe Bush and Cheney were the wrong alternative, and I am sure you can list just as many Bush/Cheney offenses.  But guess what?  Bush and Cheney are no longer running for office.  The choices, no matter what the campaign rhetoric, were McCain and Palin vs. Obama and Biden.  But since you ask, perhaps yes, I associate Bush and Cheney with friendly to big business and capitalism.  And perhaps in the narrow sense of an organized war on terrorists, Fascists, if I understand the definition of that term correctly.  But neither do I believe that US Constitutional rights are extended to enemy combatants, nor that they are entitled to a civilian trial in US courts.  But that is a matter of law, I suppose and not what I argue or defend here.

As for intrusiveness into citizens privacy, that certainly occurs.  But Bush and Cheney have no monopoly on that.  Or did you forget the secret FBI files of political opponents of the Clintons in the Whitehouse basement, or electronic easdropping on Newt Gingrich's cell phone conversations, or the public distribution of Sarah Palin's emails, or how about the "investigation" of Joe the plumber by civil authorities using government computers?  

Check your integrity and tell me again that you sincerely believe only or primarily Republicans are the "big brother" threat in government.  Bush and Cheney were no angels and were far from what would have been my perfect choice, but ultimately, they were, as always, only one of a very few alternatives presented to the American voter.

As I said earlier, God I miss Ronald Regan.  Who do you think the Gipper would have been voting for in this one?  Be honest.

PS:  As I type, the market finished down another 443 points or about another 5%  Poof!  If you had $100K still in your 401-K retirement savings when this thread started, you probably lost about $10K in the course of this debate.  The worst post-election performance of the US stock markets in history.  Congratulations.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 09:13:43 AM

joe, i guess ppl don't understand what pollitics is all about...look it up in the dic. and it'll say liar.  lol, its down to not voting for who will be a good leader, but who is the lesser of two evils....then when they don't hold up what they promised, everyone hates em, and swears that they didn't see it coming...lol, obama's ads were tergeting the dumb americans that believe that buch is the devil himself, and it worked...not trying to attack obama ppl voters...just the ppl that did it for the wrong reason...if anyone voted for him becaus ethey believe what he said about having another bush, you might as well crawl up and die, cuz that was stupid...if you voted for him because you believe that his plans for our country are what will benefit our country, then ok...but i doubt many ppl even know what his plan is with anything...and the statements about bush and mccain being the same...come on...i can't believe that in this country, the melting pot of the world, anyone can say that any 2 ppl are the same...honestly...does that mean all democrats are the exact same person?...i guess...doesn't matter what they stand for...lets just decide that any democrat is john, and any republican is jeff...so we have 2 ppl in this country, is that right?  am i on track so far?...ignorance...
\
again, anyone that voted for obama because they like his plan for our country, don't think i'm talking to you.

my girlfriends sisters voted for obama, and said that its cuz we need a black pres...i got so mad when i heard that...since when did some1's color make them more suitible to run a country?  there are only 2 explanations...1:they are racist, and think black ppl are better to some degree than any other ppl, or 2, they are stupid, and don't know anything about what a president has to do...anyone else out there that voted for him(like oprah) just because he's black, what are you?  racist, or stupid?

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 09:36:06 AM

So everyone knows, nutterhater and maple are the same person.  One name is for use while at work and the other while at home...anyway

I voted for GW in 2000 thinking at the time he was the better candidate. I did not vote for him in 2004.   He has given me 8 years to help me form my opinion of him. Bashing him would be to say something before I had given him a chance. As time went on his actions and the actions of his administration made me change my opinion.  People use the term "sheeple".  To me "sheeple" are those who blindly vote or think strictly along party lines.  There is good and bad logic on both sides, the hard part is deciding which candidate you think is the best for America based on information from all sources.  In 4 years my opinions may change.  Its not a viscious cycle, it is informed voting.  Obama won by bringing people from all walks of life together, by finding common ground for those people to stand on.  That's unity.

I'm getting tired of this.  Obama won, we all have to live with it for the next 4 years, can we talk about hunting tree rats now?  Hunting is a lot more fun than politics, I think we can all agree on that.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 09:43:45 AM

HELL YEA!...:-(...i missed one today...i'll have to put some seed out to bring him back...hehe

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 09:50:30 AM

Wow, TCups, I assume that post was directed at me.  My only reply is politics is politics, good and bad on both sides.  I don't recall actually associating GW or Cheney with any other names, but nice rant.  The Constitution has been abused and disrespected, period.  Let's hope the government doesn't decide we are enemy combatants because we all have guns and like to talk about them.  

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 09:56:40 AM

Sorry TCups, me reply posted on the thread ahead of your long reply.  Don't know what happened.  Anyway, I don't want to make enemies, I want to talk guns and squirrel hunting.  I am going to the Hunting gate and gining up on this thread.

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 09:58:59 AM

It happened again, post out of order.  I'd call myself an idiot but I think too many people would agree with me :)

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 06, 2008, 10:13:43 AM

Tim,,,,he did win & he didn't bring unity to the voters,that's ludicrous to say that,,,,,he just played the EVIL GW game,,,,,,I thought that all walks of life have been voting before this election,,,,what he did, was get the minority that never voted, to come out & vote :o  If you think they voted for any other reason than SLIM SHADY being African American,,,you better think again :p I don't know you but I do see a pattern,,,,your the guy that  cheered for the Phillies to win the World Series this year yet cheered for the Red Sox last year,,,,In New York we call it BAND-WAGON JUMPERS......I guess in 2012 when Sarah Palin becomes the first White Women Prez ,,you will be on that band wagon.......I don't get it, what made you vote for Slim Shady,,,,,I would bet that you never new who he was until he beat Hillary Clinton,,,,,what did he do to win your vote,,,,,NOTHING,,,,You bought his B.S....IT'S O.K.   Maybe some day we can go Turban shopping together.... :o

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 10:33:29 AM

You would lose the bet, I have known who Obama is for a long time.  Sounds like you are saying that if more white people got out and voted McCain would have won.  I see a pattern too, even though I don't know you.  I am not a Phillies fan or a Red Sox fan even though I was cheering for them to break the "curse".  I am a Twins fan if knowing that is important to you.  I don't equate politics, something that affects the very way we live and survive, with sports.  If you voted for McCain/Palin simply because they are Republican, then in MN we have a name for you, brainwashed.  Think for yourself.  Good luck with Palin in 2008.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon November 06, 2008, 10:33:36 AM

May God bless you greatly Tcups, you hit the nail on the head, so to speak. People seem to forget that the president has very little power in this country other than the vtoe. Congress ( Democratic) runs the country!Lets be fair and put the blame where it belongs. Who has been in power in the Congress the last few years?

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 06, 2008, 10:42:35 AM

The Stock Market is an indicator of things to come. Aint lookin too rosey Folks:?  Hmmmm?? Tim M. (S.C. "Redneck Tim")

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 10:45:38 AM

this tim is now redneck tim...what are the other ones gonna be?

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 10:51:41 AM

flashgordon, thank you for understanding how things work...maybe someday, others will actually learn about our government also...but for now, it seems like everyone is going to believe ads on tv...oh well...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 11:33:11 AM

lol, so why does it seem like on this airgun forum, the longest threads are on politics?...lol, its like we can't stay away from the subject

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: airgun/cuz November 06, 2008, 12:00:29 PM

Maybe you should focus more on the true american pastime  BASEBALL,,,this way you wouldn't be mis-led by SLIM-SHADY!!!   Now I understand what the problem is,,,,,,Your a Twins Fan, the cities must have you confused just as your are with RED & BLUE,,,,,,I never said that if more white people got out voted McCain would have won,,,,I said that if you think that SLIM SHADY created unity among voters ,,,it was insane,,,,,I also said that minority voters that never voted before,voted for him strictly because he is African American,,,that's what I said but than again your eyes are closed & your throwing darts to pick a Prez..........I honestly hope that this Slim Shady guy works out for because you just might break,,,,first GW let you down than Slim Shady,,,,maybe Bin Laden will run next & you can vote for him,,,,,,that would be a great band wagon for you to jump on,,,,,,,oh yeah I forgot it was a curse that prevented those teams to never win a series,,,,,,I kow Babe Ruth was lurking around all those years & the goat is why the Cubs haven't won,,,,,

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: nutterhater November 06, 2008, 12:20:41 PM

You interpret what I say, I interpret what you say.  Besides, Bin Laden  is dead.  We hunted him down and killed him for what the did to our great country...oh, that's right, he's not dead.  Guess Saddam was more important.  GW let us all down.  Better to have closed eyes than a closed mind.

We could go on forever, I guess.  This is really my last post to this thread, you can have the last word. I'll talk to you in the hunting forum about hunting.  We can agree that hunting is good, right?

: Politics Just Ain't Neighborly
: TexasShooter72 November 06, 2008, 01:04:12 PM

These topics divide people.  Kinda takes the common humanhood out of things.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 01:22:16 PM

well, i was always the kind of person that could debate the hell outta something, but once its over, go be friends with my opponent in the debate...just because we view things differently, doesn't mean we have to dislike each other, but i think we could all express ourselves, and i think that this debate thread is an interesting one...i know that no matter what we say on this thread, once we write to some1 on a diff. thread, we're all friends again.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Gene_SC November 06, 2008, 01:55:59 PM

Well guys and gals, including myself..:) Lets get back to what we all love best... AIR GUNS. If this thread does not stop soon I will have to do some adjusting. Don't ya all think we have said enough? Can we stop this politic thread and get on with things that make us relaxed. This election is over and we are just gonna have to let it go. Please let's stop this now.. OK

Gene

: "Young Dave",,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 06, 2008, 02:06:31 PM

Well said Buddy!! Yer one cool little cat!! (No offence intended by the "Young" thingLOL!!) I been watchin you,,, sometimes Im scratcin my hed head readin your posts,, most times though,,Im right there with Ya!! :p  Even with almost a 30 year age differance,,,I feel I can relate to Ya SO much,,, I remember being 20 yrs old,,, Well kinda,,,(I was a"Hippie" Ya know!!LOL!!) 8)  Enjoy readin Yer posts Buddy,,, "Old Tim M" :emoticon:

: Hey Gene,,,,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 06, 2008, 02:12:00 PM

I got me a new British Lady in my life!!  This thread is getting "Old & Stale" now,,,, Lets move on now Folks:????  "Old Tim M". :p

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: WBZsDAD November 06, 2008, 02:19:05 PM

I was beginning to wonder if you were ok Gene

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 06, 2008, 02:27:01 PM

haha, thanks, tim.  i seem to keep up with your posts also.  if we weren't so far away, i'd say lets get together to shoot sometime...maybe next time there is a shootout in sc, i'll come down there.

: Well,,,
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 06, 2008, 02:30:39 PM

As my Father used to say round bed time: "Shut Er Down"!! LOL!! :p  And he said it kinda nice,,,,,,, you knew you did not want him to have to "Follow Up On His Reqest":? :o  Nite Nite My Friends,,,,, "Old Tim M". 8)

: RE: Well,,,
: WBZsDAD November 06, 2008, 02:41:23 PM

That one caught me funnyTim, I say that to my boys all the time and they know exactly what I want as you did.........very funny

SHUT 'ER DOWN BOYS!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: crazy4salmon November 06, 2008, 03:53:25 PM

I was thinking how great it was not to have seen any political crap on the GTA. Then I opened the BACK ROOM. What is done is done, bury your guns, and have a sip of brew.

Back to airguns 8)

: WELL SAID GENE & MIKE
: kiwi November 06, 2008, 04:11:06 PM

BY the reaction of the anti Obama gang it really starting
to look like all the level headed voters voted for Obama.
I wounder if its his veiws or his skin colour that is stirring
the pot of discontent.
I know we will never know it takes balls to be that up front.
Give the guy the same chance you want to be given.

Just the veiws of a outsider looking in

" Thinks to myself better not log on for a mounth"

: Kiwi,, (Peter)
: Timmyj1959@yahoo.com November 06, 2008, 04:25:33 PM

Dont take a month break Buddy,, I for one enjoy your posts tremendously!! See Ya at "Huntin Gate" my Friend!!LOL!! Tim. 8)

: RE: WELL SAID GENE & MIKE
: crazy4salmon November 06, 2008, 05:31:44 PM

No mate your stirring the pot. Good Night.

: How much more control?
: 3n00n November 06, 2008, 07:51:46 PM

http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11365&mid=88068#M88068 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=11365&mid=88068#M88068)

`

Looks like the grip of the sheeple controllersis already awfully tight . . . (http://../images/emoticons/frown.gif)

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 07, 2008, 07:13:54 AM

...well, i can honestly say, i didn't expect it to get its own gate...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TexasShooter72 November 07, 2008, 07:19:05 AM

I Kinda did.  Discussions of such topics have gotten me into some mild trouble in the past and I've since chosen to not touch these topics at all.  Well, minus NRA issues...  but they're related to what we do!  What it does is makes folks who want to debate and get hyper-political a place away from the rest of the herd to jabber all they want.  I won't be one of them.

: RE: Once again an over reaction...........
: FlashGordon November 20, 2008, 12:07:26 PM

Well said Tcups, I'm voting for you!

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 20, 2008, 01:19:38 PM

It is not "opinions" that divide Americans or any people -- it is core beliefs.  Want to know more about socialism?  You haven't seen anything yet.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: gunsup0331 November 20, 2008, 05:25:55 PM

jesus is that today?

: RE: you guys should watch Michael Moore films
: gunsup0331 November 20, 2008, 05:34:35 PM

timofb - 11/5/2008  3:22 PM
blablablablabla And please don't call yourself Christians or Passionate Conservatives (still don't know what that means by the way, I love god but i have no problems voting for the war and killing 200,000 Iraqi civilians)blablablablablabla

wow.





and we are the ignorant ones.  please.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: TCups November 20, 2008, 10:13:53 PM

Well, actually, as I type, the 5%-6% drop in the markets you see there was yesterday's loss.  But that graph was somewhere around 12,000 a few weeks before the election.  Say, there is some real change.  Let see, for your Obama Voters, that's (12000 - 7500) / 12000 = 0.375 or a 37.5% loss of the material wealth of all of those invested in the companies on the American stock markets.  So let's review.  Taxes on the wealthy are going up, but 95% of you will get a reduction.  And corporate taxes are going up, but all of you small business owners won't be affected (unless you fail to pay to provide health care coverage for your employees).

And a new, progressive monetary process is in place where by the US Gov. appoints an un-elected Treasury Secretary to have the sole discretionary power to spend tax dollars to buy up toxic assets that the American people will eventually get a decent return on sometime in the not too distant future - - -

Oops, no, I guess that was wrong.  The drop-dead emergency that prompted that legislation that MUST BE PASSED BEFORE THE END OF THE WEEK! wasn't quite as big an emergency as our Congress first thought, I guess, because now the money is being used elsewhere, to bail out private industries, especially those with a large union presence.  Have you notices that America's national debt had doubled in less than a year and were just getting started on our spending spree?  C'mon, all of you folks over there in Europe and the rest of the world!  You can like America again now that Obama is going to be President.  Please leave your money invested in our markets.  We love you too!  C'mon, all you greedy rich folks (and likely anyone with any retirement savings), how are your going to be able do your patriotic duty and pay taxs if you don't invest in economic justice?  Send that money back in and let the newly organized US Central Planning Committee do it's job.  Hell, we haven't even started on economic justice yet, much less fixing global warming and built those little electric cars you will all soon buy, so hey, lets have another cup of coffee, let's have another piece of pie!

But not to worry, I am sure that if things do get really bad, our newly elected President and his cabinet (which somehow reminds me a lot of the Clinton Cabinet even though the Lincolnesque Obama is cleverly appointing his political opponents, so they say) won't waste a good crisis.  You can be absolutely sure President Elect Obama has some other really great emergency measures just ready and waiting to put into place, a-la FDR, that will stabilize things for many years to come and will allow the government to take care of all this unpleasantness for us.  And he can act very swiftly and without any of the grid-lock opposition, just as soon as our next Congress is sworn in and those nasty, divisive, partisan Republicans are dealt with by the Democrat's version "final solution".  By the way, did Al Franken get elected yet, or is that good news still to come?  And hey, I wonder why it was that American instituted term limits for the President after FDR croaked?   What were the voter's thinking!  Anyway, don't worry.  Be happy!  Obama is going to take care of us for sure.

: RE: you guys should watch Michael Moore films
: FlashGordon November 21, 2008, 06:26:29 AM

So you like Michael Moore do you? Not surprising, since you think like a complete fool. I don't know how old you are but I"d guess 30-40, what I want to know is how you got so damn dumb in such a short time?I also wonder how loud you will be screaming when your "daddy obama" sends his thugs to pick up your guns! You are not old enough to remember how Hitler took power in Germany but I sure am. Funny how obama reminds me of Hitler!!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 21, 2008, 07:09:43 AM

hmmm...i think that there are bigger issues than our guns...yes, to us they are important, but in the long run, i'm worried about our economy, and our standing in the world...if he pulls us out of iraq, we will have problems in my opinion...bush has kept us free from disaster in terms of an attack for quite a while...i'm not so sure obama couls do the same...and i don't trust his plan to help out our debt...because, lets face it, regardless of your party, i think one thing we can all agree on is politics are not to be trusted, but when he says he's going to cut our taxes, and give money to go to school for kids, and hire teachers(wait...i'm pretty sure he doesn't have the authority to do that...already lying?...oh well...i'm just too young and stupid to understand things, right?), i'm thinking, how could he do this in such a short amount of time?...you can't turn around a nation in a few years...when bush ran for office in 2000, we were already having money issues, even though everyone seems to think that he just can't resist his shopping trips to the mall(obviously, not actually talking about the mall), and he couldn't stop our issues, no matter what he could think of, so i just don't think he can do what he says he could.

but, honestly, ppl, lets just give all of the bashing a rest...what good could possibly come out of debating now?  lets just wait till he swears in, and see what he does, and what promises he breaks first, because like i said, he's a politician...its in his blood to lie(i've only been around for 20 years, and i've been able to see that...i don't get why some of you can't...STOP THINKING THAT HE'S GOING TO BE OUR SAVIOR!)

you guys get each other worked up too much...i think you could better spend your time, like a think you all might have some items that miss you(YOU'RE GUNS!)...lets keep it friendly, guys

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: gunsup0331 November 21, 2008, 09:35:27 AM

I agree with your sentiment and reasoning but not your suggestions. We MUST not sit back and see what this neo-socialist does with our country. We MUST elect strong conservative leadership and we MUST as a people get in touch with our legislators and let them know EXACTLY how we feel.  
 Also, many issues may seem bigger right now than the Second amendment, but when i comes down to it, if the average American Joe in the late 1700's didnt have a firearm, i think we may have had a hard time fighting off the British.  If our guns are taken away how will we take back our country?
 The *_*_*_*_*_* is going to go down in OUR generation. What kind of *_*_*_*_*_*? i cant profess to know. But it will and MUST happen or we will be too far down that slippery slope while our founding fathers look down or us shaking their heads sadly saying "Have we taught them nothing?"   Trust me, now is the time to get ticked off and start "learnin" some of these ingrates (in a nice way of course) because this government is getting top-heavy VERY FAST. Soooo. Im grabbin my guns, and buying as much bullets as i can. I will be loading my own soon, no doubt about that.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 November 21, 2008, 09:38:40 AM

but what can we do for now?

: RE: timofb.........then move.......
: FlashGordon December 01, 2008, 09:49:53 AM

Well said Bhawanna, he is really from down under(Australia) lives in Calif. some I think and like all liberals he wants the government to take care of him! Well, his daddy obama is going to take care of him alright, except by the time he figures it all out it will be too late! He'll be in the same boat with the rest of us,sad to say! Oh well,maby we can take him "hunting" with us sometime!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 December 01, 2008, 10:47:10 AM

lol, obama could go hunting with the current vp...outta take care of him...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

(guys, lets start having a good time again, and let this go...or at least get a little more civil with it...k?)

Dave

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: Big_Bill December 02, 2008, 01:30:31 PM

Dave,

There are two things that I have found invaluable in my life.

One being: ALLWAYS BE PREPAIRED !

The Second: The war for freedom will never really be won because the price of our freedom is constant vigilance over ourselves and over our Government. – Eleanor Roosevelt

And when I read here what George had to say, I better understood the danger of those who work for us !

Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. – George Washington

No man’s life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session. – Mark Twain (1866)

Bill

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 03, 2008, 05:31:10 AM

Well said Big Bill! I guess you just can't discuss politics and religion without upsetting some people!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 December 03, 2008, 09:55:11 AM

just saying, guys, that it sounds like these convo's are turning into typed attacks of ones person, which is not really where this forum should be going...why attack ppl themselves?  everyone can have their own opinion...its one thing to dislike obama cuz of how he's gonna run things, but to hate everyone on here that thinks different;y would mean one should assume that you are right about everything in your own mind, and if we never kept an open mind about anything, we wouldn't be as advanced as we are today...i'm very against obama, and everything he stands for, but why not just keep it to a civil debate?  get angry at policies, not ppl here on the forum...we're all friends, here!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 04, 2008, 03:27:39 AM

Dave, I know you mean well,but when a person tells me I'm not "level headed",that I am a "raciest," I, being an old East Tennessee veteran (Korea) do tind to get a little upset. The man's color doesn't bother me in the least, I have some good black friends. It is his liberal views on everything tha t bothers me. The democrats have made it very clear they want to take ALL our guns from us. I don''t know about you ,but frankly that doesn't set too well with me.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 December 04, 2008, 07:55:01 AM

i agree...but i think whats worse than him is that we have a majority dem. congress...gonna be an interesting 4 years...

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 04, 2008, 09:11:27 AM

You got that right Dave. Hang on, it's going to be a rough ride!!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: WBZsDAD December 04, 2008, 10:59:23 AM

Man this thread won't die, I was beginning to recover after boycotting all news since the takeover but this keeps slapping me in the face..........I'll be alright *sniff*

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: gunsup0331 December 04, 2008, 12:49:29 PM

vive la  rayzeestahnce

: RE: Nothing is FREE....Duh?
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 11:35:46 AM

In other words anyone who doesn't think like you do is ignorant. Let me ask you this, how long have you been so full of yourself?What makes you think you have all the answers on this subject? I'd be willing to bet you think Michael Moore has the right answers too,right?LOL

: RE: timofb.........then move.......
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 11:42:59 AM

You are absolutely right. It amazes me that the liberals think they have all the right answers to the world's problems and the rest of us are just ignorant.LOL

: RE: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 11:47:42 AM

Right Peakchick. I wonder if these folk have been overseas and seen how this system really works!LOL

: RE: well said peakchick....
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 11:50:10 AM

Well said Bhawanna, but I guess they enjoy their FREE HEALTHCARE !!!!!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 11:54:55 AM

wELL SAID Gene and right to the point. I was going to add something to it but forgot what it was!! It's tough getting old. LOL

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: dave2288 December 07, 2008, 11:55:06 AM

lol, idk whats going on with the responses, but flash, i'm so lost with who you're responding to...

: RE: Hey Tim,
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:05:45 PM

TCups, that was great! Idiot, I like that, hits the nail right on the head!!

: RE: Ahhhh, Michael Moore........That explains it
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:09:28 PM

WBZsDAD you're great. Right to the point! Well maby someday he will see the light!!! Let's pray for him.

: RE: Ahhhh, Michael Moore........That explains it
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:09:55 PM

WBZsDAD you're great. Right to the point! Well maby someday he will see the light!!! Let's pray for him.

: RE: Sara Wears Wall Mart Genes,,,,,,,
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:13:58 PM

Tim if you will run for President I'll sure vote for you! Well said fellow, I'd like to add to it but you covered it all so well I'm going to kept quite!

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:23:18 PM

I wish I could express myself like you can TCups! That was great.

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 12:33:39 PM

I'm with you Joe, all the way. 'Some folk just seem to have a hard time seeing the truth! LOL

: Re: IT'S A SAD NIGHT, AND GOD, PLEASE BLESS AMERICA
: FlashGordon December 07, 2008, 01:00:35 PM

Sorry Dave, I was responding to post made by Timofb and Kiwi. Don't know their real names.

: RE: Hey Tim,
: geiger January 24, 2009, 06:54:09 AM

timofb - 11/5/2008  4:55 PM

Tim I know that there is nothing FREE in this world. Government money is our money. All I am saying is this, instead of paying money to health insurance companies that run the medical operations, they tell doctor's what to do, they don't pay em, dump sick people, deny people insurance with pre existing condition and... on and on. I experienced this, believe me it is horrible.

I am saying that instead of paying monthly for health insurance that is not made for the people but to rip people off, we can all  pay into one Medicaid fund or something. So everyone gets covered and gets timely treatment. Just like we have police and fire department when you need help they come, they don't ask you. "And what type of insurance do you have?" Comes out of our tax dollars, but do you have a problem with this? And I would be willing to pay for someone that can't pay $150 or so, so  people will have regular check ups, to  catch problems early. You guys speak how bad the Europeans have it, but United States has the worst health care system out of all the western nations that costs 3 times as much, because of who the insurance companies, and greedy doctors, that are not even doctor's more like car salesman.

If you are fine with this all I can tell you, is I hope that not you and no one in your family gets very ill so you don't have to experience this. Believe me food stamps won't do it. And they don't give it everybody that easy lik ethey say. They won't even pay social security this freaken government you have to hire an attorney to get your money.

i agree.

we have a social health system. it's not the best, because it's underfunded and the politicians are constantly sapping it's strength with poor decisions mostly political ones rather than medical. that is not a problem of the health system but a general one, since all departments are victims to it. but i  must say that you get treatment without being asked questions and stuff like a kid dieing because of a rotten tooth is virtually nonexistent.
recently there was a change in law that if you pay an additional fee you get above standard treatment and so forth. so it's a kind of best of both worlds thing.
but we have a lot of road ahead before things are like they should. but even now i dare say this is better than private health care, because almost nobody got bankrupt because of a medical procedure.

: Hey Geiger:
: TCups January 24, 2009, 08:16:55 AM

(deep sigh)

Hey Geiger:

Here is a clue:  the reason health care costs are astronomical and have the potential to bankrupt you is because the government got involved in the 1960's with Medicare and things have been going down hill ever since.  So much for the Great Society.  So OK, let's just ask the government that screwed medicine up to go ahead and fix it for all of us.  I wonder if the Medicare Tax will soon become like the payroll tax -- something that more than half of all Americans will not have to pay.  Wake up, folks.  Our Constitutional freedoms are circling the bowl, and we are fast turning into a country and a form of government our founding fathers would not recognize.  Well, maybe they would recognize it -- and declare a war of independence to get free of it.

Government run health care will be an absolute disaster, absolutely.  I am very glad to be near the end of my professional career rather than near the beginning.  I would never go into the field of medicine today, were I starting over, knowing what I know now.  But hey, the voters have spoken, so heck yeah, let's turn over another 1/6th of the nation's economy to the government to run.  They do such a great job on everything else they run.  To hell with the founding fathers and their plan for a representative republic that has restricts government powers.  Lets forge boldly ahead and let them fix the job market, banking, and investment industry, the housing market, the auto industry, energy, education, social security and health care for everyone!  What could possibly go wrong?  I am sure Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barney Frank, and Barack Obama have nothing but our best interests at heart.  And after all, most of us just aren't smart enough or resourceful enough to take care of ourselves.  

We need Socialism -- just like we need cancer, if you ask me.  There may have been a cancer growing on the Presidency under Nixon, but there is surely a cancer growing on our entire nation today.  Its name is Socialism, it will sap our freedom, destroy our way of life, cede ever more money and power to a greedy ruling class and will eventually kill the USA, all in the name of the people.  By the way, Barney Frank has a stimulus package for you -- just bend over and hold your ankles.

: RE: Hey Geiger:
: geiger January 24, 2009, 09:14:49 AM

your reactions seems to me very paranoid and exaggerated.

look at sweden...it has strong social principles incorporated and is considered by many to be the pinnacle of civilization.
but that depends on what you want of course...if you're looking for a wild west kind of thing then it surely isn't for you.

i don't know exactly how the US health care system works, but obviously it's not doing very well. but that's still a matter of personal desire. you americans are strictly individualistically raised up, that's why is it so hard to understand the "other" side.
your system works marvelously if you're wealthy and miserably if you're poor. not that anything works better if you're poor :D

but i think you'll agree that both systems can work IF they are properly implemented and not misused.



i'd like to add this notion: i do support as much personal freedom as possible, but in this world with limited resources and way to many people, acting so competitive will ultimately bring worse consequences than if we'd collaborate. some sacrifices must be made...seriously how much there would be to hunt if there were no regulation? take the example of fishing...where there is a lack of regulation reports show overfishing is occurring. we could go on and on with pollution, safety and so forth. thankfully most of these sacrifices don't involve giving up our right to free speech, or right to bear arms (not that i have it anyway :P) or any other kind of "non technical" right.

: RE: Healthcare
: JWC January 24, 2009, 09:55:07 AM

The article The Politics of American Healthcare (http://'http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/armstrong1.html'), by Dr. Charles Armstrong, is worth reading.  Also worth looking at is the Compreshensive Health Care Reform Act of 2007 (http://'http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-3343&tab=summary'), which would have been a major step in the right direction.  

Socialized medicine is just like socialized or nationalized anything: it's well-intentioned, but tramples individual rights, creates undesirable side effects and concentration of decision-making power, and is less efficient and more prone to waste than market-oriented approaches to the same problem.  The problem with the current healthcare system in the U.S. in not that the free market has been tried and has failed, but rather that the free market has not been allowed to function without government intervention.  (This is the exact same situation we see with our monetary policy and financial system.)

(It's also worth running a Google search for sweden socialized medicine (http://'http://www.google.com/search?q=sweden+socialized+medicine&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a') and reading the articles that come up in the results.)

: RE: Healthcare
: geiger January 24, 2009, 10:03:03 AM

we could argue that the private sector sacrifices quality for profit, so in the end we're almost on the same.
less efficient and prone to waste...you are just generalizing based upon faulty systems of the past?

and besides in reality the private sector eventually ends up in cartels and other types of monopolies, where you have even less influence.


i wasn't exactly referring to their health care system but according to

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

it ranks better than US for a decent amount. but ok might not be the best i agree.

 look at france for instance which has the best...it is a mix of both but still leaning towards social.


edit: oh and just for the record...i'm not saying that social health care is the absolute and best way to go, but like most things choosing a middle path is the wiser choice.

: RE: Hey Geiger:
: TCups January 24, 2009, 10:50:41 AM

Thank you for those re-assuring words about France and Sweden.  Have a nice day.

: RE: Hey Geiger:
: geiger January 24, 2009, 11:19:21 AM

you're welcome...i'm just trying to keep a healthy discussion

: RE: Healthcare
: JWC January 26, 2009, 12:02:21 AM

we could argue that the private sector sacrifices quality for profit, so in the end we're almost on the same.
less efficient and prone to waste...you are just generalizing based upon faulty systems of the past?

I wouldn't discount past examples, of course, but no, I'm not generalizing based on that.  I'm basing my statements on economic reasoning.  For example, I find your proposed argument about the private sector sacrificing quality for profit, and thus arriving at less overall efficiency, to be faulty.

In a free market, products, prices, and quality are all determined by the incredibly complex interaction of the market, which ultimately boils down to the interaction of individual buyers and sellers freely exercising their preferences.  Prices will rise and fall to meet those preferences, with quality being one of the factors of influence.  Let's say ABC Company manufactures and sells the most popular widget on the market.  ABC Company decides to increase profits by lowering quality.  If the price/quality ratio they bring to the market does not meet the market's preferences, other companies will step up to the plate to meet the market need.  Alternatively, if the market finds the price/quality ratio acceptable, then it is a fair price.  However, even at a fair price, if there's a great deal of profit being made at that price point, it's *still* very likely that another company will step up to slightly undercut ABC Company with a product of equal quality.  Thus, the free market system of prices and competition naturally arrives at the most efficient use of capital and the fairest market price to match what the market desires.

One problem with systems of centralized control is that the managers of the system believe they can understand, manipulate, and control all the countless variables and possibilities in the market.  They believe they can accurately and efficiently predict the preferences and needs of all the individuals invovled.  Et cetera.  This is a conceit of the highest order, in my opinion.  They can't do it.  Their control does not do the job that the free market does, and it stifles creativity and innovation that would otherwise be present in the market, making it even more efficient and adaptable.

I could write a great deal about economic theory, and my criticism would not be solely directed at socialist systems, but also at the approach that is currently being used in "Western world" -- we're a very long way from actual laissez-faire free markets.  I subscribe to Austrian economic theory.  To anyone interested, I'd recommend some of the following:

An Introduction to Economic Reasoning (http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Economic-Reasoning-David-Gordon/dp/0945466285/ref=cm_lmf_tit_1_rsrsrs0)
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Capitalism (http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Incorrect-Guide-Capitalism-Guides/dp/1596985046/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232973816&sr=8-1)
Economics in One Lesson (http://www.amazon.com/Economics-One-Lesson-Shortest-Understand/dp/0517548232/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232973853&sr=8-1)
Economics for Real People (http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Real-People-Gene-Callahan/dp/0945466412/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233018761&sr=1-1)
The Road to Serfdom (http://www.amazon.com/Road-Serfdom-Fiftieth-Anniversary/dp/0226320618/ref=cm_lmf_tit_7_rsrsrs0)

On the subject of socialism, in particular, I recommend Ludwig von Mises's Socialism (http://www.amazon.com/SOCIALISM-Lib-Works-Ludwig-Mises/dp/0913966630/ref=cm_srch_res_rpli_1) and Hayek's The Fatal Conceit (http://www.amazon.com/Fatal-Conceit-Errors-Socialism-Collected/dp/0226320669/ref=cm_srch_res_rpli_1).

...and besides in reality the private sector eventually ends up in cartels and other types of monopolies, where you have even less influence.

The most common reason that cartels and monopolies are sustainable is because of government intervention and laws that support monopoly position.  For details, see The Sources of Monopoly (http://mises.org/Salerno_syllabus06/Shenoy.pdf), by Sudha R. Shenoy.  There's also an in-depth discussion of monopolies in chapter 10 of Rothbard's Man, Economy, & State (http://mises.org/rothbard/mes.asp).  (Also see the study guide to chapter 10 (http://mises.org/rothbard/mes/guidechap10.PDF).)  Another relevant book is Antitrust and Monopoly: Anatomy of a Policy Failure (http://www.amazon.com/Antitrust-Monopoly-Anatomy-Independent-Political/dp/0945999623/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232972407&sr=8-1), by Dominick T. Armentano.

Lastly, while I do not agree that monopolies are a natural or inevitable result of a free market, even if were to grant the case of a market-caused monopoly, I would rather have a given product or service provided by a monopolistic ABC Company, rather than a monopolistic government, which will also have a monopoly on violent force (among other things).  There would be less chance for harm, and more chance for the monopoly to be undermined and neutralized.

edit: oh and just for the record...i'm not saying that social health care is the absolute and best way to go, but like most things choosing a middle path is the wiser choice.

I think that the only benefit of a socialized health care system is the allowance for health-care for those who could not normally afford the service.  However, I think a free market system provides that, too, but in a voluntary and non-coercive manner.  Firstly, absent foolish intervention by the government, insurance would be much more widely available and cheaper.  Additionally, I do not discount the effect of private charities (including policies by individual hospitals and doctors for providing care to those unable to pay) in a free market system.  See here (http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst050304.htm) and here (http://www.thelibertypapers.org/2008/10/20/is-free-market-medicine-heartless/) for more thoughts on that subject.

I agree with you that often, a middle path is a wise compromise.  However, in the case of socialistic policies vs. free market policies, I don't agree; I see it as a thirsty man taking a "middle path" by mixing salt into his fresh water, rather than just drinking the water.  

: RE: Healthcare
: geiger January 27, 2009, 12:52:25 PM

to be honest i'm not an expert in economics...but claiming that one side is better than the other is just not that prudent and wise. both have their bad and good sides. statistics say france is the best in this regard and they have a kind of mixed system so i don't see why it couldn't work.

i do understand your argument about how the consumers determine if the company succeeds or not. but a totally free market needs fully elastic distribution of resources, knowledge and total information awareness from the customer's side...which is practically impossible.  in reality...only few firms dictate how things are done since only they have the resources and knowledge (patents). so both systems can be called idealistic or lacking for that matter.

pharmaceutical companies are a good example, for exploitation of drugs...since in theory you get much more revenue (in the long term) if you sell a product in smaller amounts and as long as you can...that's why they are not motivated to come up with drugs that cure instantly but they rather just alleviate the symptoms.

and as for product efficiency...i think the auto industry is notorious for this. a lot of them get their income form servicing the car in the long term rather than just selling it. i heard that they design their car to last a specific amount before it needs to be replaced or serviced.

thing is we are getting screwed in both systems, because greedy people run them most of the time.

experience has thought me that getting into extremes might sound good for the short term being but in the long run they normally fail.



as for the monopoly part...well i think that has a far bigger reach than what are you trying to present. i wouldn't be that wrong to say that the stronger the company is the more power it has over politics. maybe this example wouldn't be a bad idea...i remember that europe sued Microsoft on monopoly based charges, because they wouldn't let certain third party software run on windows. thing is people in the US wouldn't even notice something was wrong, so no need to force anyone in buying something. the factor of consumer ignorance will automatically keep things rolling.
your implication that the government might use force to get it's way is a sign of a dictatorship. you can have a democracy and have communistic (socialistic if you will) elements. so if the people are not satisfied with the management they'll vote somebody else. but really...this is a far to complicated issue to be solved in just a few sentences.