GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : taxonomy June 22, 2006, 12:08:29 AM
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I am wondering if a MPP (multi pump pnumatic) would have the same accuracy potential as a PCP. I guess it should be recoiless and it would seem to have a simular consistancy as the "sweet" part of the fill on a PCP. What's the truth on this and are there some good MPP guns, can you name a few?
I am getting to the point were I can maybe deal with the expense of the gun for a PCP but then the fill equipment is so expensive and you have to haul it around.
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It is my understanding is that some of the MPP's are very accurate. It is the sweet point of the number of pumps that makes the difference in uniformity of accuracy. I do not own a MPP but would love to.
On the other hand are the PCP's which I think have allot more versatility when it comes to over all mods. I pondered the idea of buying one but as you say, the cost is tremendous with all the equipment needed to get set up. But once you get everything you need, I have read that they can be very powerful and accurate.
I finally settled on Co 2 and I think this may be a step towards the PCP. I love my QB78's and am amazed how gentle they shoot.
Maybe my next step would be PCP, and I don't know when.... :) But I am very curious about them and when I finally get up enough money I may just invest.
Gene
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This seems to be the way a lot of people go, skipping over MPP. But really, any PCP is going to cost at least $1000 with all the gear. The the filling, you have to either lug a scuba tank or pump it up. If I bought a PCP I'd want it to have adjustable power so that I can pratice in the basement with the same gun I use outdoors. Now I am using a daisy 953 (great cheap 10 meter gun by the way) in the basement and a Charlie Tuned Gamo 220 at the range. Since the guns are so diffrent the pratice means less overall becuse not everything you learn is transferable.
With PCPs costing as much as a good used motorcycle MPPs are starting to look pretty good to me. They are self contained, recoiless and pretty simple. More parts means more to go wrong. One failre across the refill bottle, pump, fittings, tank etc will render the PCP unseable.
MPPs seem to get skipped over, wierd considering how many of us proably had Crossmann 760s as kids. All the pumpung when shooting does seem a little cumbersome but then again I don't go through tons of ammo at the range and if I feel like it I can break out the rimfire. MPP would seem to be a great choice for field target.
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I have a 22 cal 392 steroid benji, a 1377c converted to a rifle with a 24" barrel, and a XS-B5-10 in 0.177 cal. All of these MPPs shoot at or just above 600 fps on the chrony and are very accurate and easy to shoot. Eight pumps with the benji, 8 pumps with the 1377c rifle, and 6 pumps with the XS-B5-10 gave these chrony results. These are well below the lowest power ranges of PCPs, but they are a hoot to shoot if you don't mind pumping.
Allen White
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Accuracy is not dependent upon whether the air charging/storage system is MPP, SSP, or PCP....imo.
All three pneumatic systems do the same thing. They use stored compressed air to propel the pellet. The only real difference between them is that both MPP and SSP require you to pump the air into the small tank again for each shot, while a PCP stores air (Pre-Charged) in it's tank/tanks for many shots. Hence the difference in the names Multi-Pump Pneumatic, Single Stroke Pneumatic, and Pre-Charged Pneumatic. It is the valving, trigger, barrel, pellet, etc which make the difference in accuracy.
Advantage of an MPP? They are usually inexpensive, self-contained, and you can choose power by varying the pump number. Although many PCP's have an adjustment for this.
Disadvantage of an MPP? You have to pump it 10-15 times to get even close to the power of an average PCP.
Single-Stroke Pneumatics (like the Daisy 747 pistol) are wonderful for 10 meter target work! And my old Crosman AIR-17 single-stroke pneumatic with .177 pellets is great for sparrows and starlings out to 20 yards (even with it's smoothbore).
Advantage of a PCP? You just have to charge the tank once and can shoot many times. I totally REGRET selling my .20 Career 707 rifle. Even with a hand pump, it only took 120 strokes on the pump to recharge the tanks fully. I'd get about 100 shots at low power setting (sorta like a Benji at 8-10 pumps) before having to top it off again. So I'd pump it up in the basement, then go out shooting with it set at low power and 2 speedloaders (that I made) which each carrried 54 pellets. It took awhile to shoot 100 shots, so all I carried in the field was the gun and two speedloaders in my pocket. At max power setting (for small game and varmints) with heavy 28 grain hunting pellets, I'd only get 15-20 shots before having to top off the tanks. But at that power level, it took a groundhog at 70-80 yards.
So do the math and figure out which is harder; pumping an MPP or a PCP with a hand pump? Actually, the MPP is harder (for me) to pump and needs a lot of pumps for high power shots. And if you don't like to pump, you can always go the SCUBA tank charging route with a PCP. The main disadvantage I see of a PCP is that the seals and everything have to withstand 2500-3200 psi for extended periods of time. That's a lot of pressure. Seals and such may wear quicker and a PCP may be more expensive to maintain than a Crosman or Benji.
Initial cost of PCP? You can get a Career, Sumatra, Chinese B50 or B51, or a BSA PCP and a decent hand pump for around $550-$700 total. That ain't bad. You don't NEED a SCUBA rig to shoot PCP. Hauling around what amounts to an exotic bicycle pump is easy. As long as you top off the tank before it gets too low, recharging them by hand ain't hard at all. Look at classifieds, PCP's turn up used all the time for reasonable prices. I like the Career guns. A bit on the strange looking side, the power adjustment is easy with a little wheel, you can stuff 9 Crosman CP pellets in the magazine, and pop them out as fast as you can work the lever. And you can find LDC's for them which make the so quiet that all you hear is the striker hitting the valve. The only thing I don't like about them is unmoderated they are LOUD. But when you get up into the higher power ranges (15-40fpe), they all make loads of noise when fired...even MPP's. You may as well shoot a .22 rimfires. But unmoderated MPP's are loud also at higher power levels. That was one of the reasons I got rid of my old Career, it was too loud to shoot in the basement and I couldn't borrow my friend's LDC all the time. My modified B19 Springer generates 18 fpe and is quiet enough to shoot in my townhome basement!! That's hard to do with an unmoderated PCP or MPP (at higher power).
But anyway, I'm selling off one of my flintlock guns to finance another PCP and hand pump soon. Just haven't decided which one to get. Might get another Careeer...but in .22 carbine and with an LDC. I see a nice moderated Sumatra PCP in the classifieds right now for a low price. But I just bought a new gun last week :)
I am also about to order a Chinese MPP....the little XS-B5-10. Now that's a nice little gun. Compared side by side to a stock Crosman backpacker, the B5 is way more powerful with fewer strokes. And ya just gotta dig the wire stock too. :)
Jack
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The XS-B5-10 is a fun little gun to shoot, and it looks cool as well. I have limited my pumps to six but some folks are saying it can take 8 or 10 with corresponding increases in power. I'll have to research this some more. I suppose the valve could be modded also just like the Crosmans. There is a good trigger mod for the XS-B5-10. I found the trigger mod and pics on the internet. I do know that there can be a problem with the seal that comes in the XS-B5-10. The oil that comes in the gun appears to eat at the seal until it is no longer functional. Fortunately a spare seal comes with the gun. I was unable to get any seals for the gun from Xisico, but Compasecco may have some. When you get the gun, make sure it is functioning properly, then break it down and clean up all that oil.
Allen White
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But really, any PCP is going to cost at least $1000 with all the gear. The the filling, you have to either lug a scuba tank or pump it up.
Nope. A misconception. There are different levels of price in any system. There are $2000-$3000 MPP's out there too!
Right now on Brad's classifieds is a used Sumatra 22.cal carbine complete with LDC, Leapers 3x9x50mm scope, and 2 magazines for only $400.00 including shipping! I saw a used Hill pump a couple of days ago for $140. So $540 would get you into PCP and it would be so quiet you could practice shooting in your living room even.
A new Career 707 is $448.00 and a Logun, HIll, or AirForce hand pump will run you about $225.00 = $673 + shipping.
A new Chinese B50 is $324.95, and a Chinese pump is $139.00 = $463.95 including shipping from Best Air! Although it's harder to adjust power levels on a B50 and you have to be more gentle with the Chinese pump (stopping every 20 strokes or so to let it cool down some).
You'll basically pay a little more for the Career with a good pump, but you'll have fewer issues probably and it's easily adjustable with a power wheel on the side (you can also find screw on active baffle LDC's for them).
BTW- Why can't you shoot you GAMO 220 in the basement? I shoot my modified/tuned B19 (same basic gun) in my basement every day! It just takes a double layer of Ductseal in the target trap to stop the .22 pellet at 18 fpe. Yours should be quiet enough with the Charlie tune.
Jack
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The XS-B5-10 is a fun little gun to shoot, and it looks cool as well. I have limited my pumps to six but some folks are saying it can take 8 or 10 with corresponding increases in power
There were some chrony figures on another forum comparing a stock B5 with a 1377 out of the box, quite a difference.
It actually took a modified 1377 with a 14" barrel on 12 pumps (624 fps) to equal the stock B5 on 6 pumps (627 fps).
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XS-B5-10 - 7.9 grain pellet
3 pumps- 434 fps
4 pumps- 527 fps
6 pumps- 627 fps
8 pumps- 663 fps
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1377c - 7.9 grain pellet
3 pumps - 368 fps
4 pumps - 410 fps
6 pumps - 468 fps
8 pumps - 501 fps
10 pumps - 529 fps
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I'm a target shooter & plinker, so fps is not a big issue with me, accuracy is. I don't own a PCP so I can't really speak to them, but I do have SSP's, MSP's(MPP) and springers. I agree with someone else in this thread who stated that accuracy really doesn't have much to do with the powerplant.
If you haven't done so, you might want to pick up a Crosman 1377c, they're just a bucket load of fun. You can 'customize' one to any level you wish, shoot it at 10 meters with 4 pumps, modify, or have it modified to be really powerful for hunting applications. You can even change calibers if you wish. And, finally, the price is right!
nmmike
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Some multipumps will shoot with some PCP's...the problem is that there are few realy good mutlipump guns,(on the quality level with almost any PCP) The effort invovled in pumping takes too much practical accuracy away (elevated heart rate) to be interesting to FT shooters,(where most of the airgun money is these days) That said,if you are willing to work with 12-18 ft/lbs,(actualy plenty of power in most cases)a Benji 392 can be made into a very usefull field gun.
You don't have to pay a bunch to get into PCP.With carefull looking and some luck,you can get a used gun,tank,and filler for under $500.( a well modded 392 will set you back about$350,for comparison)
I have several of each type,here's how they end up getting used....precision long range,many shots per session-PCP or some bulk co2 if it's warm.Hunting with a lot of walking,and lots of targets-multipump or bulked co2.Springers- just to keep my technique up to par.
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Thanks for straightening me out on this. So I could get into it cheaper than I thought.. Only thing is that I hate to think about pumping that thing up by hand.... :) :)
But I guess that goes with the territory to be able to get to a starting place with one.
Thanks for the Info.
Gene
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After looking around I began to realize that this was going to be a problem. There really aren't any great MPPs that are readilly availble.
The 327 looks like it would be pretty good but not great. I am a bit frustrates with the spring as a powerplant. I've enjoyed shooting my Daisy 953 so much that I'd like something bigger for outdoors and to take to field target. The recoiless action is just so great. The gun is so nice and light too.
I've resisted PCPs as too complex. I'd forget to fill the scuba tank for example or forget the pump when going to the range. I know it's absurd but it's the truth. Also, if any one part breaks the whole system goes down. I'd like a system that uses buddy bottles too if I go to PCP.
I'd be more interested in the B50/51 if theu came with buddy bottles and the Sumatras are just to wierd. Maybe I should just cruise the classifieds for a while. I got sort of burned my last time with the classifieds so I am now once bitten there.
Whatever it is it has to be .177 and has to be adjustable to below 20fps becuse that's the local limit on field target. I would really like for it to be adjustable because I'd like to have just one gun to shoot for all uses so I can become most familure with it. Maybe looking at it that way it could make sense to spend a bit more on a gun that will do all. But not right now that's for sure.
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It's not all that difficult to adjust the power of a BAM 50/51 and as it has been said before, with a Chinese pump, it gets you there, but only see it as a one step at a time.
I got the Bam and the pump together. I pumped, shoot, twiddle, pump, shoot etc. You can't believe all the fun in just doing that. Then I got a scuba tank. Now it's fill, shoot, twiddle, twiddle, shoot, fill and it's even more fun. Only a little bit less work.
Swannie
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What sort of temperatures do you shoot at normaly? Bulk CO2 will get you over 15 ft/lbs...still the bottle to fill,but many more shots and more places to get the 20lb tank filled. (paintball shops,fire extinguisher shops,welding supply shops,even resturant supply stores...)cheaper guns and cheaper tanks too.The downside is the temperature issue....
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novitt - 2006-06-22 3:17 PM
Also, if any one part breaks the whole system goes down. ...(SNIP)... Whatever it is it has to be .177 and has to be adjustable to below 20fps becuse that's the local limit on field target.
Well.....on any system; if one part breaks the whole system goes down! If your springer seal blows, it's down, If your 1377 pump handle link pin breaks, it's down. If your slingshot rubber snaps, it's down. If you get tennis elbow, you can't even throw a rock decently! A PCP set-up is really no more complex than an MPP, it's simply in two separate components.
Now I have a question: Your local limit on field target guns is "20fps"??? That might fling a pellet about 10 feet from the muzzle before it hit the ground. I can spit a watermelon seed 20fps! Do you mean 20 FPE ? :)
Jack
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The thing is there are way more parts in the system. Complex systems are always more vulnerable. There's a pump that can fail, there are mating surfaces what can get dammaged where the pump is connected to the resiviour. There's just more that can go wrong, there's more things for me to forget at home etc.
I ride bicycles a lot, this is why I ride a signle speed bicycle around town. It's rugged as hell. Nothing ever goes out of adjustment. It's the bike I ride the most and as such it's the one I like the most and the one that takes the most abuse.
PCP is a step towards complexity that is pretty much against my basic nature. It's not that I can't go there, it's just that I think about it a lot before commiting to a higher level of complexity.
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I live in new england so the temp varies a lot. I almost bought a CO2 gun but didn't becuase of this. I already have a 10 lb co2 tank too.
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Yup 20 fpe not fps.
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I like the KISS principle myself(keep it simple,scot..lol) a blowgun is about the ultimate.A singlestroke pneumatic would be next.There are always compromises. MPP's can be almost bulletproof,springers as well,IF the quality is there to start with AND the system is not being pushed too hard.A full size springer will last for decades without trouble,(spring as well) at 10 ft/lbs.push it to 18 and you'll be working on it yearly(or monthly).A benji used mostly at 8 ft/lbs, sometimes 12,will last decades as well.but make it do 16-18 all the time and expect to go thru parts.Many of the 40 year old co2 guns(bulk) I see work fine with nothing more than a few drops of ATF in the tube.
I guess I'm saying that airguns are inherrently complex,(compared to a singleshot rimfire,for instance).It's all relative,even a PCP system is very simple compared to a cd player,scooter,or, full suspension downhill bike.You can reduce the likelyhood of problems by purchasing well made,lower performance designs (very much like the choice between a singlespeed hardtail and a 21 speed full suspension bike)
I think you'd like an old crosman bulk gun(114),but your temps wont let it work for much of the year.
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I guess with the PCP you're asking two systems to work together. I shoot rimfires quite a bit and agree that any airgun is inherently more complex. I like them though. I am not entirely sure why. I think I shoot my Daisy 953 most. It's a single stroke pnumatic.
A lot of grief can also be saved by buying quality up front. I good complex bike will easilly outlast a cheap single speed. But it costs though. I thought this would be the case with my new used RWS 48, but neither the iron sights nor the scope mount are aligned at all. For a gun that lists at over $300 this is absurd. So, I guess price is no gaurentee of quality in airguns. Maybe I'll look closer at the BAM 50's. How is the power adjusted in these??
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pretty much cut and try on the spring,but there's a lot of info from guys who've done it on the chinese forum.,even a few posts using off the shelf springs.I'm trying a lightened striker,so far promising....I think of pcp's as multipump guns with the pump moved off the gun and powered,but that's just my twisted viewpoint...LOL