GTA
Gateway To Product Reviews => Non-Productive Posts => : Gene_SC February 06, 2009, 01:27:40 AM
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I ran across this post on the Crosman Forum. May be of some interests to the GTA newest air gunners. Hopefully it will be the end of a long drawn out miss justice.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1233801064/Just+out+of+curiosity.................%21 (http://www.network54.com/Forum/275684/message/1233801064/Just+out+of+curiosity.................%21)
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I'd been following "that" over there and a post over at Airgun Advice forum which contained a lot of non-truths IMO , but I didn't know how to respond to them until I found the one over at the Crosman Forum . so I posted a link for those who wanted to read "the rest of the story " as Paul Harvey would say. kirby
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Hello Gene, I'm only here to talk Airguns! I know there is a riff between our man Bob and somebody else who makes claims about the trigger but I don't want to get into it, it's just not talking Airguns for me! As far as I'm concerened, Bob is Bob and he's a good guy. Nuff said! :-)
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Thanks Andy for your post. It is water under the bridge, but it is actually intended for those who are new and have questions. It serves no purpose to drag it any further than it has all ready gone. Nuff said..:)
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Coming from a victim and observer(me)... this post was indeed a step in the right direction. I too have been banned from the Yellow Pages but for good reason. Should one wish to read the tirade post that got me ousted PM me. I can make millions of copies if need be. Thing is, I've been watching this saga from afar and the wounds of these two Gents runs deep. The Crosman forum posting, although now frozen, was a necessary therapy session.
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Hey Gene,
I hate to continue this, but I feel that it's worth saying.
I have read every thread and post on this subject that remains posted, both here and on the Yellow. And I feel from my reviewing of these posts that, NOTHING was STOLEN from Steve, as who hasn't thought of modifying or making a better trigger, or a "better mouse trap" as he still hasthe capabilities to have them manufactured, and selling them, if he wished ! Edison "patented" the light bulb, but until Tungsten was used as the filament, it had a short life, and was only half as bright.
And now that Steve has continued selling his "IDEA", I don't hear anything about it. It was advertised as the NEW GREAT TRIGGER, but I don't see any posts on it, or how it is ???
In my opinion this is all sour grapes from Steve, as he could not accomplish anything without Bob, cleaning, adjusting and fitting these triggers of his, so that they worked. Ifhe could, he would have never stopped selling them himself..and by cutting off Bob's share of the profits, he could have cut his prices, and controlled the market for himself ! But he didn't ! Why ?
Please note, that this is my observations of this situation after reading as many of the posts pertaining to this situation that were available, and as a member of both the Yellow Forums and the GTA Forums.
A manis known by his actions, words, and deeds ! Bob and Gene have never hid from this situation, and have alwaysbeen gentlemen concerning this topic. And they have never deleted post because of it. Steve continues his rants, in an attempt to convince others of his point, or BAN those that disagree, or do not follow his positions !
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The funny part of it is that they beat him up and he doesn't even seem know it. Most people see Steve for what he really is and take him with a block of salt. And of course he had to run over to the other side and drag a crony or two of his over for support and it sure was obvious and that they were coached and prepped :p ..... And you know me.... I just had to jump in and open my big mouth. :D I sure got a lot of hits on my BLOG too.
I would also like to say that the Crosman forum is an excellent forum with a bunch of good people and Gene and I encourage our members to participate there whenever you can. :) Many of the guys over there were instrumental in our forum getting off the ground and gave us a lot of support at the time and when we really needed it.
I'm just grateful that we have the forum that we have and the fantastic membership that it is comprised of and policed by a good group of monitors and you do a fantastic job. I know that it appears that I get a little hairy sometimes but both Gene and I realize that many of you have a great deal invested here. You can bet that both Gene and I will do whatever it takes to keep it what it is even though some may disagree with our decisions. But one thing for sure... it will never be like it is on another particular forum where you cannot speak without getting treated like you are a disease and tossed like you are contagious or garbage.
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The tale of the famous trigger hehe. To me that's all that is left for them to go after on the Yeller forum, the master's of their own destruction. Steve will probably never let this go and to hold such contempt against another, very self destructive. Let them grind their axes behind the wall's that rise higher around that forum and in turn let GTA be a standard that all other forum's follow cause in the end it's about family and alway's leaving the door open and the "WELCOME"! mat at the foot of it to greet new members.:) Ed
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Good thing about the sour grapes, you can make wine. I don't drink but thats a good side point. Good things come out of just about everything.
I posted one time over there and my post closed. I left, wont go back and made GTA my family forum. Bob And Gene cant be beat. That CDT trigger rocks.
I Just don't have a rifle to take one, sold the one I had.
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That's exactly the thing that makes this Familly a GREAT PLACE TO BE! (I wish I new how to do it in bold type!)(Maybe even a few fireworks going off in the background for effect too!)
Before I came here, I visited a few other airgun forums and found the atmosphere somewhat unplesant, even unfriendly in some cases due to my lack of airgun knowledge! Here, even though I'm reletively new and I live in Spain, it does'nt seem to matter, I'm treated kindly, and that goes a long way with me! I look forward to growing with you guys! :emoticon:
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In a serious legit way. Not to stir any pot. Did either you or Steve consider a patent or trademark or other way of protecting your design/invention? I would think that had that happened it may have prevented the "theft, by the dishonest dealer, stealing of design etc etc" accusations. I mean, if I was ever lucky enough to design and/or build a better mouse trap, I'd surely try to protect my rights to it.
Nathan
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I find it laughable that someone can post a picture of a trigger with the same blade and body drilled for mounting as a replacement and because those two aspects look very similar, offer it up, post after post, as photographic proof of a direct copy of another trigger. Those aspects of a replacement trigger have to be identical. It is the subtle differences in the contour and tolerances of the sear-articulating surface of the trigger that makes all the difference -- a few thousandths of an inch difference here or there. -- The visual differences between a superb trigger, a functional but crappy trigger, and an outright dangerous trigger might be very slight indeed, to a novice.
See for example: http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13693&posts=9&highlight=%3Cspan%20class='highlight'%3Etrigger%3C/span%3E&highlightmode=1#M110402
But for that matter, does anyone think an on-line photograph is proof of anything, in any case? Laughable, just like the notion that the "truth' can be found retrospectively on a forum where the moderators alter, censor, or promptly delete any credible reference to CDT, the trigger or anyone who has a positive comment about it.
No, the proof is this: put the trigger in an air rifle and see how it works. The GRT-III trigger was a success because it was a refined design, because it was outsourced to a reliable manufacturer who could produce it within strict tolerances required. An, because CDT then does the initial set up work and adjustments, maintains strict quality control, markets the trigger, and sells it profitably at a fair price. Long live capitalism and anyone who does the same for all things air gun related, I say.
And the thought that someone is dishonest or disreputable for building a better trigger and starting a different air gun forum and inviting members from other forums to join is another belly laugher. Sounds like something that happened on the playground back when I was in, oh, maybe the 4th or 5th grade.
I believe that were Steve to put the same effort he puts into his vitriolic diatribes towards a more productive purpose, then perhaps he might also have done as well -- he still could, for that matter. No patents involved as I understand it. And after all, according to him, Bob Werner is just a hack, who is all thumbs when it comes to tuning, and who allegedly doesn't even use quality materials, so it should be easy to out-do anything that CDT, the money-grubbing back-stabbing, dishonest, disreputable, fish-smelling, belly crawling, [insert your own libelous adjectives] can produce, right?
But nooooooooooooooooooo! He spends all his time and efforts doing the wahhhh waaaahhhhhhh WAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH on line, whenever and wherever he possibly can. I just love that sort of behavior in a grown man.
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The Original and the Grt111 look nothing alike.. except they both have 2 holes ??????
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Time, once again, to bury the hatchet. Don't want to adopt the same attitude as the Yellow. Folks here know CDT and Gene for who they are. 'Nuff said.
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I agree. "Nuff said." Once again, let's all shoot for the high road.
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Gentlemen, Read your link Gene, and I appreciate you posting it, but, I'm sorry that you had to. It's a shame that people have to be
so crappy ( I'm trying to keep it clean). Hate to hear all that negative garbage.
I had brief e-mail exchange with Bob 5-6 weeks ago and it was very pleasant and friendly. Since, I joined this wonderful forum with gob's great info and got my so-called crappy gamo tuned by Gene, which I was overly impressed by.
I'm sure it's a terrible feeling and just p's you off to have someone start this mess.
For me , I say forget those fool's!! You guy's are Aces with me. Thank You for allowing me to be a member of GTA!!
Shane Warren
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First, Tommy you took the words out of my mouth - agree 100% and I was laughing when I saw the pics of the triggers and some of Steve's explanations and reasoning.
2nd: I used to visit the Yellow forum and although there is a lot of good info there, from day 1 I noticed Steve/NC banning people and deleting posts - on my 1st day there! It was bad first impressions and I just never got used to it. It continued day after day, non-stop, and everytime someone spoke up or went against Steve or any of the moderators, he was blocked/banned later that day. I just could not take the constant censorship & post deletions (almost 2yrs ago), it got too much for me, and then I realized every forum I went to, they were talking about the "dictator Steve" and his "private" Yellow forum - very unhappy people. I have NEVER read bad things about Bob or Gene or any of the GTA moderators in any of the other forums I visit. I always read about Steve and the Yellow forum! So that has to tell you something.. I had only posted there maybe 1/2 dozen times, and finally in 1 post I mentioned about looking into a gun that was tuned by Bob/CDT, and my post got deleted! I had heard something about Bob & Steve in NC, but just bits and pieces and wasn't thinking about that at all when I posted a question about a tuned (by CDT) gun that I was thinking of purchasing. Well that was it for me. I have not posted there since. The sensorship, post deletion, and the reasoning behind them, that goes on there is beyond anything I have seen anywhere else. I used to be a moderator for a huge forum when I worked for PRODIGY (ISP) many years ago in the '90's. The forum had over 100,000 members and we deleted less posts than they do in the Yellow. 'nough said..
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Seems this thread has been OPEN for some time now. Oh,, wait a second,,,lets delete it?? NOT HARDLY. (It has not progressed to that point,,,,,,,,yet) To those that say cencorship is an issue here,, Im sorry,, you are wrong. I for one am glad to see this "ship" out in tje open,, FINALLY!! I will say this,, I know more than most Folks do about this "issue". To those that may have derogitory issues,,,, Im not hard to find,,,,,,,,,,,,,, my E-Mail is stupidly obvious?? :o I make no secrets that "Mr Bob &Gene are personal Friends of mine,, hey wait a second,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I consider them Family. 8) I will not now nor ever apoligise for that.(Word) This whole trigger thing is SOOOOO played out,,,,Truth is,,,,,,,,, its Bob,s (OOps,, "Mr Bobs") trigger. (I respect Mr. Werner). Im tired of hearin bout all the bull poop!! Sorry that I know ALL the facts. Do the research Folks,, its pretty clear if Ya really want to find out the TRUTH. (You "Puter" folks can find it,,,,,,nothing "secretly hiddin") Go WAY back now Ya "hear",,,,, Tim. (Good thing Im not a moderator here at GTA) Continue?????? :0
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Hey buddy, I thought we had agreed you weren't going to post after 10pm (or 2 six-packs?) hehehe.. or was that Randall? :p
Better make it 9 or 8pm! :D Just kidding!!
your friend, Harry.
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No need to delete the thread. Just move it to the non-productive section. Peak Chick, if you please?
I, personally, feel that this has been aired enough, both here and on the Crosman. Prolonged discussion would only promote further disharmony in the AG community, which ain't as big as many would like to believe. It just ain't worth it. Besides, Bob's and Gene's work speaks for itself. That's the final arbiter in any debate.
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I agree Red, the end results speak for themselves. My God,...how long are some folks going to continue beating this dead-horse?!?!?!?! tjk