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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : USNCop April 25, 2009, 12:44:54 PM

: I had an airgun realization this week.
: USNCop April 25, 2009, 12:44:54 PM
After extensive experience with .177, .20, and .22 calibers in airguns, I'm really becoming partial to .22.
I thought to myself, "If I didn't already have a .22 B26, I'd trade my MM tuned .177 for one."
I've also had less 'runaways' using the .22.  But I think the .177 still needs to settle in so I'll give it more shooting time.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Jerrycup April 25, 2009, 12:58:25 PM
Troy, I like my B-26 .22 as well. On a windy day, it has a noticeable advantage over my .177 rifle. The BAM is a nice rifle any way you cut it.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Gene_SC April 25, 2009, 01:42:14 PM
Yep and I watched Jerry hit that cow bell over and over and over againat 75 yards with his B-26 at the Texas Shoot a week ago..:) No dought that the B-26 is a great shooter.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 26, 2009, 01:10:51 AM
Don't have a B-26 but I hear they are fantastic weapons of destruction.  Keep on shooting.       P
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: TexasShooter72 April 26, 2009, 01:45:38 AM
I'm kind of partial to my .177's because I use them so often to keep the squirrels out of our trees.  The 350 Magnum .22 I've got is alot of gun to be using on little critters- mine mostly comes out for the coyotes.  I am however looking into either a .20 cal or lesser powered .22 just for bragging rights.  My 350 Mag might be up for sale soon to help finance this...
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 26, 2009, 02:50:49 AM
Matt - Time for a PCP.................Paul
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: TexasShooter72 April 26, 2009, 04:21:08 AM
Paul, I've been itchin' to go in that direction!  Don't look now...  but you can see my latest purchase in the classifieds!  Going pre-charged will have to wait!
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 26, 2009, 05:51:46 AM
Matt - It's the difference between black & white and color.  I've seen some really quality PCP's on the yellow.  Which one did you get? Don't get me wrong, I love my springer. In two weeks have taken 900 shots with it.   HW97 one of the most accurate springers in the world.  However, if there was a coyote eating my cat the Cyclone will get the nod everytime.       P
: RE: I had an airgun realization this week.
: TCups April 26, 2009, 09:05:30 AM
Here is the realization I have come to:  I shot several of my springers this weekend trying to post a score on the 30 yard bench rest competition.  And I mean I shot probably a hundred or more shots with each or 4 or 5 high end, pro-tuned springers.  Competitively, I can't shoot any of them for squat compared to a PCP.  3 or 4 or 5 bulls then a flyer 2 inches out of the black, then 3 or 4 more shots before I am back on target.  Off a rest, they are all hold sensitive, all different in the character of their hold sensitivity off a rest, all picky about the pellets they shoot well, and all hard to shoot accurately even off a rest, and all INCONSISTENT.  Springers are OK for casual plinking or popping squirrels with a head shot at 25 yards, but I just don't think I am ever going to shoot as well and as consistently with a springer as I would like to be able to, and I am sure I am never going to be able to shoot a springer with anywhere near the accuracy of a PCP or single pumper.  The more springers you own and shoot, the less accurate you become with any of them.  Bah! Humbug.
: RE: I had an airgun realization this week.
: TexasShooter72 April 26, 2009, 09:09:30 AM
I should've said the GTA classifieds...   it's a BSA Lightning XL .22.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 26, 2009, 09:15:50 AM
Our friend PeakChick loves those BSA's.  Do some performance testing for us.  I'm sure your gonna love it.  Good get.       Paul
: TCups
: USNCop April 26, 2009, 05:33:34 PM
I sense your bad taste for springers, however, I must disagree with your statement of a falling off of marksmanship.
That's a real shame because I just love my .22 B26 to death!!!
I believe learning to shoot a springer teaches one to learn how to focus on the basics and can only improve shooting skills.
Unless there is fault in the springer/pellets/rings/scope combo, fault can really only go to the shooter. (wind pending, of course).

I've never owned or shot a PCP but I've got extensive experience with pumpers.  It seems it would take about the same skill to shoot either
aside from a PCP having a scope or smoother trigger.

So far, I'm dropping feathered vermin to almost 50 yds with my B26.  I'm being limited by fences and such.  I really need to take it to the range to stretch it's legs.
I can only imagine what I could do with a nice PCP set up!
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Graham April 26, 2009, 10:09:02 PM
Once you can shoot a springer well, you can shoot a PCP well. Unfortunately, it doesn't work the other way.lol.
: RE: TCups
: TCups April 27, 2009, 04:10:11 AM
You know, it's not a bad taste for springers, or I hope, lack of skill shooting one.  It is the fact that I have several springers and if I pick one up I haven't shot in a while, it is like starting all over to get the hold right, and to start shooting groups of less than, say, 1 inch at 30 yards.  It isn't to say that I can't pop small varmints or pull off the occasional great shot at longer distances with some regularity, but the effort required to be able to shoot 20 or 30 consecutive shots consistently inside a 1 inch bull at 30 yards with a springer is, what? . . . discouraging.  And I am not so sure that I agree with the opinion that being able to shoot a springer well translates into being able to shoot any air rifle well.  In fact, it usually feels to me like spending the time and rifle-specific effort to zero in with one particular springer or another may well cause me to develop bad habits --  no, different habits -- that I have to then shake off and change when I shoot something else, particularly a really accurate PCP or rim fire rifle.  Where I am headed with this is that it may be time to (gasp) pick one springer, forsaking all others, and get really good with that one air rifle, presuming the reason I shoot is to be able to put the pellet on target consistently.  I can tell you that taking 3 or 4 spingers you haven't shot for a while out to the range to see how well you can do with shooting a carefully scored match with each of them is an exercise in frustration for me.  But if I pick up my Walther or my Air Arms S410, it's an entirely different experience.  In this case, all my mental efforts go to thinking about what I, the shooter, am doing - position, center, stance, breathing, trigger pull, etc. instead of thinking about the rifle and "how the hell did that shot fly 4 inches low and right?  Do I need to change my grip?  Is it not grouping because I am shooting FTS instead of JSB", etc.  Sometimes it is fun to work thru that sort of thing, but for the most part, for me, it is fun to not to have to work through that and to just go out there and punch one-hole groups at 30 yards.  If you can do that consistently with your springers, please shoot the bench match and post your scores.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 27, 2009, 06:08:24 AM
Springers have a place in this world that no other gun has.  A pocket full of pellets and your ready to go.  That's it.  A PCP must have support ei. air.  For some people this is a hassle.  Not for me though.  A tank of air at 45psi, a smaller tank 44cu ft. gets me 3500 shots on low power which is higher in fpe than most springers.  They are lighter, more accurate, adjustable power setting on some and once sighted in there on for ever, for the most part.  My HW97 is a extremely accurate for a springer and I just love to shoot it.  Nine hundred shots in two weeks.  I'am a hunter, period.  I know positively that when I put those cross hairs from my Cyclone on my target, regardless of hold, the pellet will hit there every time.  This is not true for a springer.  So it depends on your intension's with an air gun.  My HW97 will be used as a FT shooter and some hunting.    P
: Well put TCups
: USNCop April 27, 2009, 03:07:01 PM
It looks like you made the same realization that I was going to suggest.  I would rather be deadly with just one rifle than decent with the lot.
Your point is well taken and I understand.  I decided that for now I don't want to hassle with pumps and such, so I will fine tune with springers for now.

I'm happy if I owned only 1 rifle but I'm able to spend enough time with 3 so it's not so bad for me.  My MM .177 B26 has been a little challenging so far but I have to give it some time.
Luckily, my .22 B26 was such a smooth, accurate shooter as is that I didn't have so much trial and error with it.  It seems to either like a particular pellet or it doesn't.
Perhaps you can visualize my description of shooting a springer with a pretend laser bore sighter inserted in the muzzle and having to focus on a pinpoint on my target.  That's why I mentioned accuracy improvement with shooting other things.  I feel it enforces focus and trigger pull.

I would LIKE to challenge myself with your bench match of a 1" group at 30 yds.  I'll measure my back yard, otherwise I'll have to get to the range.

One thing I've always loved about the GTA, we can all discuss our favorite methods of slinging lead down range in an adult fashion.  It's refreshing for me to know that I suffer the same headaches as everyone else here with my AG's.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Graham April 27, 2009, 09:38:08 PM
You say, when you take 3 or 4 springers with you. I say, what the hell for? Would you carry 3 or 4  PCP's around with you?
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Richie April 28, 2009, 01:12:23 AM


Regarding accuracy, for those that didn't see the original post:



SCOPE SHIFT [/b]
     This is the No. 1 problem shooters have with scopes. It's also called point-of-impact (POI) shift. There are several reasons for this and none of them are the scope's fault. They're problems that plague mostly new scope users, but they can also crop up when a veteran shooter starts using a scope in a new way. The reasons for scope shift are many, so I'll try to rank them by the commonality of occurrence.
     
     FOR SPRING GUNS ONLY: For spring guns, the No. 1 cause of scope shift is how the gun is held. Certain spring guns are so sensitive that the group impact point can be moved several inches at close range, depending on where the hands are placed and how the stock is held. The reason for this is the vibration patterns that spring guns have when they shoot. Other powerplants don't have these vibrations and cannot react to them. If you own a spring gun and don't hold it exactly the same way for every shot, you can expect poor accuracy and scope shift all the time. The solution is to develop one hold and memorize it so you always apply it.
 

      1. Parallax
 This is generally the most common cause of "scope shift" for all air rifles (with the exception of hold sensitivity for spring guns, mentioned above). I put the quotes around the phrase, because it isn't the scope that is shifting...it's the shooter! New shooters see that their scope has a parallax correction adjustment (the AO wheel) and they assume that once they're focused on target there's no more parallax. That's incorrect. Parallax is the line between your eye, the reticle and the target. Because the three are in different planes, there MUST always be some parallax. A good scope can reduce this to a large extent, which for some shooters is all it takes. Does a deer hunter care whether the bullet passed between the third and fourth ribs or just broke the third rib? As long as the deer is down, that's the whole point. But, a field target shooter gets upset when his pellet lands 0.04" from where he intended. The deer hunter will never notice parallax; the field target shooter will obsess over it.

(http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/scope-shift-barrel-droop/ao.jpg)
 The adjustable objective, or AO, removes as much parallax as possible at any given range. The shooter just turns the adjustment ring on the objective bell until the target is as sharp and clear as it can get. As good as it is, AO doesn't remove any of the parallax caused when the shooter places his aiming eye at different places in relation to the eyepiece. A repeatable spotweld that always locates the aiming eye in the same place is necessary.

To correct the kind of parallax I'm talking about, the shooter has to be 100 percent certain that he places his eye at the same location for every shot. This is called a "spotweld" by the U.S. Army, which refers to assuming a position so regular that it's as if your head were spotwelded to the gun. This most-common cause for scope shift is 100 percent user-caused and can therefore be entirely prevented.

 

2. Elevation adjusted too high
 The second most common cause for scope shift is when the vertical reticle is adjusted too high. The reticle is etched on a tube called the erector tube. When adjustments are made, the entire erector tube moves. A spring opposite the vertical adjustment knob keeps tension on the erector tube. On many scopes, this spring relaxes when the elevation is adjusted too high. I call it "floating" the erector tube, because that's what's happening...the tube is floating at the end of the spring travel. The erector tube is no longer held rigidly between the spring and the adjustment screw, and it hops around from shot to shot, taking the rifle's aimpoint with it.

(http://www.pyramydair.com/site/articles/scope-shift-barrel-droop/elevation-knob.jpg)

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: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 28, 2009, 04:05:23 AM
Good article Richie.        Paul
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: 21grains April 28, 2009, 04:32:20 AM
Thanks Richie great post learnd more from it then ever new ever ever.seya gooon huntin fur such. lol 21grains
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: Richie April 28, 2009, 04:32:25 AM
By the way, Paul, I lived in Tucson briefly in my younger days, but only stayed for a year because I couldn't find work back then (70's). Beautiful city, and you can have guns!! So now I live on the East Coast, thus the purchase of the Whisper. I'll grant there's alot more than I ever knew about shooting springers, but love it.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: elmer fudd April 28, 2009, 06:12:59 AM
Technically, I think some springers are more accurate, but assuming you're a human being who has some inconsistency to your hold or trigger pull, there's no way you can consistently match a PCP's accuracy.   I've got very accurate examples of both and while on a good day my TX200 will keep up and sometimes surpass my S410E, there are plenty of other times when I'm just not shooting at my best and the S410 will still group pretty well while the TX200 starts throwing pellets all over the place.   Of course I'm the one responsible for that, but the fact is that with a PCP I'd still be shooting much, much better.
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: tjk April 28, 2009, 11:20:39 AM
JMO,...but it just takes more finesse to shoot the smaller .177 cal. than it does shooting a .22,..(with springers in mind). I hunt with both,..and have had very good results with both. Shooting a spring rifle takes Lots and Lots of Practice to shoot well,...and each one shoots different. The challenge is what makes it so rewarding!!!!!!! Best of luck, tjk
: Re: I had an airgun realization this week.
: PelletPaul April 28, 2009, 12:30:01 PM
A PCP should shoot more accurately.  I mean look at the price.  If they didn't shoot more accurately then no one would buy them.  I have well over 2 grand into the Cyclone and the HW97 with a tune about $1100.  My next air rifle (tactical Airwolf with good scope) 3 grand.  Just a few minutes ago I shot the HW 1/2" groups at 20 yards.  The Cyclone you couldn't measure it because it's all the same hole.  Yesterday I shot a English Sparrow at 91 yards and knocked the feathers out of one 103 yards.  Still I love my springer.    PelletPaul