GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Gamo Gate => : CO_AirGunner May 04, 2009, 04:58:19 AM
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I received a Hunter 440 stock on Friday that was destined to go onto my Whisper. I didn't realize how much the comb on the factory Whisper stock bothered my grip. The pointy end of the comb is right where I like to rest the meaty portion of my hand right below my thumb. I didn't realize that I had been shifting my grip around in order to avoid this part of the factory Whisper stock until I received the Hunter 440 stock. Here is what she looks like with the new stock:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_2905_cropped.jpg)
I like the Hunter 440 stock MUCH better!!! It just feels better to me. The wood dampens vibration far better than the hollow composite factory stock, and it just looks dang $exy!!! I highly recommend this mod to the Whisper, however there is a safety issue that MUST be addressed if you make this mod. Using the Hunter 440 stock, the pin in the rear of the action that holds the guts inside of the receiver has about 0.10 inch of clearance on both sides and is free to move. This is due to the fact that the Hunter 440 has a plastic cap that slides over the end of the action thus trapping the pin from movement, and the stock is cleared for that cap. This cap serves to hold the pin from lateral movement once bedded into the stock, as the wood of the stock supports the plastic on the outside.
I don't have one of the 440 end caps, and just put the action into the stock without the cap. After I received the stock and installed it, I had an extended shooting session over the weekend with my father-in-law, who owns a Hunter 440. I'd estimate I made about 100 shots. After we were done, I noticed that the main pin had moved considerably to one side; enough so that it had almost cleared the opposite side of the receiver! Yikes! This could easily lead to a failure, and one that could seriously hurt the shooter (imagine a cocked rifle letting the rear spring guide loose out the back of the rifle...). In the picture below, you can see the pin I'm talking about in the center:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_2904_cropped.jpg)
I want to make sure that the community is aware of this potential SERIOUS problem. I plan to try and get one of the 440 end caps, but if I am unable to do that, I will make a Delrin cap myself. PLEASE make sure to remedy this on your rifle if you do this mod!!!
Other than this issue, this is basically a drop-in modification. The little spacer (~ 0.050" plastic washer) on the cocking linkage roller needs to be removed when switching to the wooden stock also, but that isn't a big deal at all. Don't forget to use lock-tite!!!
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Thanks for the heads-up, Jared. I've got a 440 stock I received last week which is going to go on my son's Viper. The Viper does have a plastic end-cap which looks to my uneducated eyes is if it would fit. If not, I'll attempt to purchase a 440 end-cap or suitable replacement prior to him being allowed to use it.
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Just to clear it up, the end cap must be the type that slides OVER the end of the receiver, and covers the pin. The one from the Whisper just sticks onto the end instead and won't do anything for the pin.
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You might, alternately, put a flat-headed pin on the insides of the stock channel, or something similar, to shim the stock inward. Then your cross-pin no longer has the room to shift.
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New Old Guy here (first blog, thread) ever. Excellent description and picture of the problem. I too have a Whisper (with ram air, GRTIII, etc.) and also have issues with the stock. I can't get close to a 'spot weld' and don't like the chin weld I am forced to use. I am thinking of another approach. This may not be the forum for this but, if you are finished with your Whisper synthetic stock, I would be interested in it to try to cut it up and make an adjustable cheek piece. I find I like the sythetic and plan the spray foam approach. The 440 stock you have used is excellent and I might get interested in that way to solve my problems. Thanks for sharing your info and I look forward to following your build.
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Someone did that with a CFX. They cut out the comb, installed some pillars and made it adjustable. You can also try a strap-on pad.
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"Someone did that with a CFX. They cut out the comb, installed some pillars and made it adjustable. You can also try a strap-on pad."
Or as I do with my shotguns - buy packs of the adheasive backed velcro strips from fabrics stores. Get a scrap of leather big enough to cover the comb. Stick the loop side on the top of the stock and sides of the stock where the pad edges will be.
Stick the hook side inside the middle and edges of a piece of leather, cut the leather to the shape of the comb, or whatever shape works for you.
Put some more strips back-to-back together so there is a hook side and a loop side on each.
Stack the extras as high as needed on top of the stock, and then put the leather cover over all.
Adjustable comb, all for under $5.00.
Paul.
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Hi Jared...I just went to Gamo's website and looked at an exploded diagram of the 440/Whisper/Viper. It appears the Wihisper uses a different end cap and cross pin part number then either the 440 or Viper...those 2 models share the same part numbers for both parts. I believe the only problem I'm going to have in converting the Viper to the wood stock may possibly be in the cocking linkage, I believe there was some discussion about this item awhile back...I'll have to check previous posts/archives to see if a solution was found.
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Bob,
I assume you are talking about the diagrams on Gamo's Spain website? (Here: http://www.gamo.com/portal/es/documentacion )
What is interesting on those is that the Whisper and Hunter 440 listed there aren't exactly like the US models from what I can tell. The end cap that they show for the Hunter 440 looks more like the one on my Whisper, and I need one like my father-in-law has on his 440. I intend to give Gamo a call today.
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Yes, Jared...the Spain website...sorry, I forgot to mention that. It'd be interesting to see what Gamo says. Looking at the Viper on their site, it appears to be just another Whisper with a Viper stock.
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Gamo completely blew me off. Apparently they don't sell any parts other than what is listed on their website to the general public. You have to either be an authorized Gamo dealer or a certified gunsmith for them to sell parts to you. (hello - air rifles are NOT firearms...) Unless I can find someone capable and willing to order this for me, it looks like I'll have to find or make something to use.
I haven't posted about it yet (and don't want to get into it here), but I have lost some love for Gamo here in the last week or so.
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First off, from one newbie to another, welcome to the forum!!!
Until I can find a remedy for the pin situation, I have switched back to the synthetic stock. Drop me a message after I am able to switch back the the wood stock and we can figure something out.
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What are you planning to do with the synthetic Whisper stock
now that you switched to wood?
Wanna sell it?
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See my post above to Bob Fairchild.
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Sorry, I must have missed that post.
I have a Hunter 440 and I've always wondered what it would feel
like with a synthetic stock.
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A little note here for what it's worth:
It is not uncommon for the cross pin to be off to one side or the other a little. The plastic cover that covers the cross pin should not be a safety issue at all. It is nothing more than a cover for aesthetic reasons.
It would be almost impossible to drive it out with a hammer let alone just drift out, especially with the lug removed. It is under a lot of spring loaded cross pin pressure and of the few thousand Gamo's that I have been through, I have never yet seen even one that has moved any where near enough to possibly clear the block , even with a broken spring. It certainly cannot move far enough to clear the action. The only way that it could ever slip out is if it was totally without spring pressure and out of the stock and then it wouldn't matter. And.... even if it were to ever come out it still would not matter because the lug would still hold the cross pin block in place even if under a spring loaded pressure.
In fact, many of the later Gamo's and Gamo clones using the tapered end caps don't cover the pin at all.
CDT
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Okay, now I feel better. I didn't mind spending the money for the stock as long as I can use it. Thanks for the info CDT...My oldest son is standing here as I type this, he just said to me, "that Charlie The Tuna guy really knows a lot about airguns, huh?" Ummmmm, yeah...he does!
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I REALLY like the look of that and would like one for my Big Cat. Just a couple quick questions:
Do you have a part number for the stock?
Did you just call Gamo USA and order it?
Thanks
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Bob,
The pin in mine slipped out on the left side (as you hold the rifle to shoot it) and stopped when it made contact with the wooden stock about 0.1" later (approx. measurement; I don't have it in front of me to check).
What worried me was that the pin was just about clear of the far side of the action wall. I know that there is still shear strength on the one side, plus the bolt screwed into the rear spring guide block, but I'm concerned that left that way something bad could happen?
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I just ordered mine off of the website here: http://www.gamousa.com/product.aspx?productID=214
Make sure to remove the spacer under the cocking linkage roller, otherwise there will be sideways pressure on the linkage.
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I think my cross-pin issue is solved!!! 8)
I had measured the diameter of my Whisper's action and found it to be 1.013". I've been pretty busy and haven't had much time to shoot, so I had been keeping an eye out for something to cap the end of my action. I know CDT says it should be OK, but the pin definitely moved on its own and that really bothers me for some reason.
Last weekend, I was at the hardware store picking up some stuff for the the yard. I was walking through the plumbing section when something caught my eye. I found a 1" copper pipe end cap that when measured was within 0.003" (smaller) than the rear of my action. Copper is pretty malleable so I figured I could make it work.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3020.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3022.jpg)
I got home and found a deep-well socket that measured 1.015". I measured and cut a slot into the copper to fit around the lug bolt using my dremel and then cleaned it up a bit with some files and sandpaper. Next, I forced the copper cap onto the bottom of the socket until it reached the lip at the bottom of the slot. I worked the socket under the lip (the socket was sitting a little cock-eyed in the cap now) and then set the cap on an anvil (any good flat and hard surface will work). I took a small piece of masonite to pad the socket (NEVER hit a socket with a hammer!!!) and pounded the socket into the copper cap. Once it bottomed out, I kept pounding on it to flatten the end.
After this minor work, the cap fit pretty well over the end of the action. I pinched it closed a tiny bit with my hand so it was snug on the action, and slid it on. It fits quite nicely, and doesn't look half bad. It fits into the wooden stock pretty well too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3024.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3025.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3029.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3032.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3026.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3027.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Air_Guns/IMG_3037.jpg)
I've been shooting about 100 pellets per night this week, and it seems to be working just fine. I was a bit concerned that it might ring like a bell when I fired the rifle, but I guess it is snug enough with the other parts that is is well dampened and doesn't make any noise.
Too bad this was so much easier than getting the correct end cap from Gamo. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Smilies/tantrum.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Smilies/cuckoo.gif) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v653/LEDmodMan/Smilies/wife.gif)
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Spray paint the copper with Rustoleum black and it would look like it was factory OEM.
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Not a bad idea! Or maybe I could do GOLD to match CDT's trigger... 8) ;-)
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Actually, give credit to where credit is due, which is ALL YOU.
You have given all of us a cheap alternative to an end cap
that apparently is impossible to get from Gamo. And if it works for
Gamo rifles, then it should work for other springers as well.
Great job!
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Excellent job!!! I enjoy seeing someone with initiative and ingenuity solve a problem. Will send you a PM.
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Where did you buy the stock? Internet search gives me no results. Thanks!
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Right from Gamo USA: http://www.gamousa.com/product.aspx?productID=214
(posted earlier about 1/2 way down)
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Great DIY job CO AirGunner. I might make one myself for my Crosman Sierra Pro.....the edge on the original plastic one is abit ragged due to prying it out a few times. But then Crosman sell all their parts to the public not like Gamo......
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If your cross pin is drifting out you need to put the gun back together like you got it new and send it back to Gamo. I pin is splined on one end and has to driven out with a pin and hammer. Not only that there is probably 70-80lbs of pressure maybe a little less that is resting on that pin when the gun is uncocked. As CDT said the cap is to fill the void at the back of the stock. I have a 440 on the bench right now and it took a little bit more than tapping to get it out and is was drifted off to one side more on this one. Last thing the bolt that you had to make the notch around for you end cap is screwed through the trigger bracket into the rear spring guide so even if the pin came all the way out you still have that bolt holding it together. Here couple pics to illustrate what I'm talking about. You are more than safe. You are correct on the cocking shelf. I believe it's cut lower on the synthetic stocks or they use a smaller roller guide I never really checked.
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Cross pin on my Whisper is not splind, or a press fit. When pressure is off the pin, you can move it with just fingers.
While I was installing the air ram I made sure it was flush on both sides before letting the ram pressure on it. After several shots I noticed it had shifted a few thousandths to the right and has stayed there since. Guess that's where it's ' most comfortable'.
Paul.
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I offer this just as a thought:
Copper and steel is somewhat galvanic.
See: http://www2.mtec.or.th/th/research/famd/corro%5chowmetals.htm#table1
The relationship is shown in Table 2 near the end of the article.
You may end up with some corrosion that you do not like.
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FWIW, my cross pin is not splined either and if there is no pressure on it, it is a slip fit. I am an engineer by trade, and well understand the mechanical assembly of the rifle. I was uncomfortable with how much the cross pin tended to shift, and while it may just be resting there and might not cause me any headache, the anal retentiveness in me was why I went ahead and made the endcap.
Also, I recently took the action out of the stock to clean the trigger group (the dirt and dust from many camping trips had it a bit grimey), and I see no corrosion of any sort between the two metals. Not to say it won't happen. Maybe the fact that the action is blued provides enough of a barrier between the two metals that they don't corrode; I don't know. I'll certainly keep an eye on it.
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Hey engineer man: I am still thinkin about ordering a Hunter stock for my Whisper. Can you give me a swag on how much difference in weight between the composite and the wood?
Thanks.
Fuller
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ok....with all that said, will the hunter 440 stock accept a big cat barrel/action..?
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Yes, it will. A small amount of sanding is necessary if you want the plastic end piece to fit on the back end of the action.
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Just got my Hunter 440 wood stock for my whisper and it fit just like the synthetic stock no modifications except that I had to take the shim out by the roller. The plastic piece on the end of the action fits just like it had been cut for it, the safety issue with the pin seems to have been fixed, the stock fits tight against the pin. My groups are a little tighter now also. I'm very well pleased with this stock modification to my whisper.
Jeff
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They look identical but theres something just not flush. Any Ideas?
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Not quite true regarding the pin. Not all of them have the serrated pin as shown in the picture and are not tight . In fact, if the block is relieved just right with the non serrated pins, you can just slide the pin in and out with your fingers. They used to all be like that.
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No, but maybe someone else will have an idea.
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Looking at your pictures, that is definitely a different stock than mine. They must have changed the 440 stock recently to match the newer style like the Whisper synthetic, as the one I got matches my father-in-law's 440 from the late 90's.
Good in that you don't have to mess around with the endcap like I did and it is now a truely drop-in mod. I wonder if this is also now why you can get a wooden-stocked Whisper straight from Gamo.
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I had already cut the copper cap in preparation for the new stock. I was surprised when I got this one.
Jeff
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v79/Chortdraw/?action=view¤t=Airrifles019.jpg
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Chortdraw,
Some nice carving on the butt of the whisper. I also see that you are an archer, my passion also.
Jeff
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Thanks Uncle J. I love archery and build my own bows, both longbows and some recurves. Don't shoot compounds any more but keep up on all the new designs.
Really enjoying these air gun though. Can shoot through my house and out the back door to the 6' high fence where I have a 2' x 3' target trap I made. Can get 30 yards this way
and nobody can hear anything. My neighbors don't care anyway. Also have a 20 yard archery target with bales and some 3-d targets and can tune my bows as I build them. Just got a crony so I can tune my airguns also.