GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : Gopher May 13, 2009, 01:09:33 AM
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Hello All,
Being new to air guns and having an immediate need for pest control, I recently bought a few offered to me by a friend of a friend. A lot of knowledge and kicks in the butt later, I'm the proud owner of a powerful Beeman RS1 .177 cal with a direct sear trigger and a Gamo Delta. I took care of the pest problem, and now that I enjoy shooting, have bought a Bam-26 .177 cal which is great. The RS1 I now know is considered a throw away because you can do nothing to improve the 7-9 pound trigger pull (get it to 2 pounds) at a cost that wouldn't come close to buying another budget gun with an adjustable trigger. So, I am going to list it in the classifieds for what I think is cheap, but it is a beautiful gun with a nice wood stock and I like the way it feels. So, if it doesn't sell I'd like to detune it down to 600-700 FPS that way I have something to shoot along with the kids using the Delta at 10M in the yard. I figure if I put in a weaker spring, it would load easier, reduce the pressure on the direct sear and make it easier to shoot. What can a weaker spring cost? 15-20 dollars? Worst case...I get some experience with tuning before I attack the Bam-26. Anybody have any recommendations on what spring size I can use to replace the original spring?
...Thanks in Advance
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If you want to try something buy a TF89 trigger, and put it in the gun. the TF is the same gun so the trigger should fit. The trigger costs $25 at Compassecco.
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Their has been a post on how much power loss happens by leaving a springer cocked for a while it might be an eayser way to lower the power this way than putting in a shorter spring or if you could fine a spring of the same length but lower in power that might be a way too. check the spring in the south summit cleaning kit the whole kit is about 8 bucks. maybe some one in the form can measure the one in a kit if they have one. howie
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Those are both good ideas. I'm going to order the TF-89 trigger and see if I can put it in. While it's apart I'll measure the spring. The RS 1 only has two pins holding in the stop and trigger. I think the RS 2 that has the adjustable trigger in it has three pins holding the trigger and stop in. I'll have to see how much modifying I want to do. The weaker spring might turn out to be the easier answer.
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Hi gopher,
I don't usually cruise this board but:
I just noticed your post and I hope I am not too late to give you some advice. The Beeman RS1 is the same action as the TF-89 (not sure about trigger interchangeability), also the the Hammerli Titan (which I own 2 of one is custom tuned and modded by Gene and shoots like a dream & my stock one is very nice) and the AR1000 is another copy .
Anyhow and I am surprised Gene_SC didn't tell ya this. These rifles not only need a good solid spring compressor [they have a VERY long & strong spring] but they also require a special spring compressor adapter to reach past the Trigger Assy and the two cross pins that hold it in place. The spring is about 2 and a half inches past the above obstructions and the adapter has to have grooves to clear these to get to the spring. I don't even have one of these adapters made yet, cause I have been enjoying the tuned one so much.
BTW this rifle is pretty heavy with the scope, for me, let alone a kid.
Just a warning before you go and order the 2-stage trigger; which can be very very nice when tuned and adjusted properly.
Cheers and Good Luck [sorry I wasn't here earlier] gamo2hammerli :-) you know this stuff; too busy with the target competition board. lol
Just be careful; pull off the stock and you will see what I mean, Gopher. Also drive the third [closest to the buttstock] Pin out; this only holds the plastic cap on and is easily done. Make sure you drive it out from left to right with the muzzle end oriented away from you, as one side of the pins is knurled. You don't want to drive the it out from the knurled end or the holes will become oversized.
Good Luck Again
Roy
N.CA
The Heap:
Unknown Chinese Underlever .177cal; Unknown Chinese Youth-Sized Breakbarrel (w/Thumb release to disengage chisel latch on breech end .22 cal; Hammerli Titan w/Leapers 3-9x32 full-size MilDot Scope .177 cal.;
Hammerli Titan Custom built & Tuned by Gene_SC & CDT .177 cal.A very smooth shooter!!!; QB-57 2 pc Rifle in Hard Case w/Walther 4x32 Scope .177 cal.(markings on scope say "Hammerli"); 2 Gamo PT-80 Pistols.177 cal., one needs CO2 cartridge Tip Seal, 2nd one works great!!; Walther CP99 CO2 .177 cal. Pistol another Great Plinker; Walther CP88 CO2 Pistol .177cal. "Cream of the crop in my pistols collection"; Beeman P17/Marksman 2004 One-Pump Pneumatic.177 cal. Very accurate;Crosman 2240 Carbine w/ 17" .177 cal.barrel Built from the bottom up with spare parts by Mike N., 1/2" @ 20yds;Tech Force® S2-1X Air Pistol .177 cal. a good "Soft Hammer"
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roix06,
Thanks for chiming in. No, you weren't too late. I just got the time to start fooling around with it. I think I'll get some more information about the spring compressor and disassembly before I start. For one thing, it only has two pins. The end cap just pops on and off. I had the stock off to look at it but haven't tried to take it apart. Do you know where I can get instructions on how to build the special spring compressor? I have a friend who is a machinist who can build me the compressor if I find instructions. Anybody have them? When you say drive the pins out left to right, is that with the cocking lever facing up or down, it makes a difference. I thought about buying the trigger assembly just to see if it can be directly retro fitted or if I have to modify the body.
Thanks again.
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You may already have decided on tearing down and a new spring, but thought I would add something to what was said about leaving a gun cocked to decrease power. As a link here (in the library?) will show, storing cocked can bring a gun down by as much as 25%. While you do decrease the power, such a method can't be consistent. I would imagine that you would be adjusting your sights for every single session, since the spring will rebound a bit, then compress for a while, etc. Better to go with a different spring or maybe trim a few coils off, although that's getting pretty complicated with regrinding the ends, etc. But, again, I would never intentionally leave a gun cocked in order to drop the power level.
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Hi Dan, Roy has pretty much explained it. I do not think that the TF-89 Trigger will work, but I have not tuned any RS-1's yet either. If your RS-1 does not have the same two stage trigger that the Titan, TF-89 or the AR-1000 has, I really doubt that trigger will interchange.
For sure the trigger in the Titan, TF-89 or the AR-1000's is in my opinion one of the best made two stage triggers that the Chinese have made so far. They are simple and easy to tune as well.
Best of luck.
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Hi Gopher,
That would be from YOUR left to right trigger down, holding the gun as if to shoot it, or right to left with trigger up . lol. I don't know, now, if it is the same action; I have always heard it was. Look at the pins closely and if they are like mine you will easily be able to tell which is the FAT end that you do not want to drive through. Mine has deep knurling on the big end. I would drive it out from the other end. It is pretty obvious on my Titan. The pin should tap out pretty easily at first, tapping lightly with a small hammer, IF you are driving it the right way. If not it probably won't move much without hitting it fairly hard. If ya can't tell just LIGHTLY tap it on both sides. Lightly! it should move a tiny bit one way and not a bit the other. Did I say tap it lightly?
I am assuming, excusing me if I am wrong, that since you don't know about spring compressors, that you are kinda new to this springer stuff. Please read a few articles on disassembling this type of rifle before you start. they can be very dangerous; you don't want to get hit by one of these springs while taking it apart. They go through walls and skulls. Be CAREFUL Please. The China Gate is also a good place to look.
I haven't seen an RS 1 before but it is listed in several places along with the Hammerli Titan, AR 1000, TF 89; as being the same rifle. It is too bad you got the one with the wrong (non-adjustable) single-stage trigger. The ones I have work very well.
I haven't got anyone here to post a pic of the adapter you need to compress the spring. I have asked several times. Basically you need a strong tube with grooves cut 180 deg apart to clear the cross pins that hold the trigger assy INSIDE the tube. Then 45 Deg. from the grooves you either need to cut a larger groove or cut the top of the tube off to clear the trigger housing. The Trigger Assy is what holds back the spring guide. Other rifles just have a machined plug in the end and the cross pin goes thru that.
If your cap just slips off then you can look inside and easily tell what it would take to reach the spring guide and clear the obstructions in the way.
I have yet to find the right size material (pipe) to make one out of, but with a lathe, your friend could easily turn down a piece of 3/4 inch galvanized pipe to fit your tube. As for the grooves either a mill or hacksaw would work once you open up your RS 1 and figure out how long the and what diameter pipe you would need and how long to make the slots.
As for the spring compressor itself, personally, I just use a pipe clamp on my springers. You will find many more plans on this site for something safer and more elaborate than a pipe clamp with a 24" piece of 3/4" galvanized pipe.
Good luck, I am sure someone can provide you with a link or two for the spring compressor.
I believe there are some here in the Library Section.
Cheers
Roy
N. Ca
Unknown Chinese Underlever .177cal; Unknown Chinese Youth-Sized Breakbarrel (w/Thumb release to disengage chisel latch on breech end .22 cal; Hammerli Titan w/Leapers 3-9x32 full-size MilDot Scope .177 cal.;
Hammerli Titan Custom built & Tuned by Gene_SC & CDT .177 cal.A very smooth shooter!!!; QB-57 2 pc Rifle in Hard Case w/Walther 4x32 Scope .177 cal.(markings on scope say "Hammerli"); 2 Gamo PT-80 Pistols.177 cal., one needs CO2 cartridge Tip Seal, 2nd one works great!!; Walther CP99 CO2 .177 cal. Pistol another Great Plinker; Walther CP88 CO2 Pistol .177cal. "Cream of the crop in my pistols collection"; Beeman P17/Marksman 2004 One-Pump Pneumatic.177 cal. Very accurate;Crosman 2240 Carbine w/ 17" .177 cal.barrel Built from the bottom up with spare parts by Mike N., 1/2" @ 20yds;Tech Force® S2-1X Air Pistol .177 cal. makes a good "Soft Mallet" if nothing else!!
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Gene is most likely correct there, Gopher. I'm not sure either. If your Trigger is held in place with two 1/4" cross pins that go all the way through the tube; then MAYBE it will work. If not, it is set up completely different from mine or the TF89.
Hi Gene; nice Titan you built, I love it! I would like to send you a pic of the shroud in the next day or two. Would that be okay?
Thanks Gene, I was hoping someone would chime in when gopher said that there were only two pins and that the cap just slips off.
Roy
N. Ca
Unknown Chinese Underlever .177cal; Unknown Chinese Youth-Sized Breakbarrel (w/Thumb release to disengage chisel latch on breech end .22 cal; Hammerli Titan w/Leapers 3-9x32 full-size MilDot Scope .177 cal.;
Hammerli Titan Custom built & Tuned by Gene_SC & CDT .177 cal.A very smooth shooter!!!; QB-57 2 pc Rifle in Hard Case w/Walther 4x32 Scope .177 cal.(markings on scope say "Hammerli"); 2 Gamo PT-80 Pistols.177 cal., one needs CO2 cartridge Tip Seal, 2nd one works great!!; Walther CP99 CO2 .177 cal. Pistol another Great Plinker; Walther CP88 CO2 Pistol .177cal. "Cream of the crop in my pistols collection"; Beeman P17/Marksman 2004 One-Pump Pneumatic.177 cal. Very accurate;Crosman 2240 Carbine w/ 17" .177 cal.barrel Built from the bottom up with spare parts by Mike N., 1/2" @ 20yds;Tech Force® S2-1X Air Pistol .177 cal. makes a good "Soft Mallet" if nothing else!!
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Just a thought, but if you decide to de-tune your rifle with a weaker spring, you might try a little "smoothing" of the sear points with a piece of emory paper,...like 400 grit or so. Just go easy and knock off just the rough spots. "Trigger-work" is a fine art in itself, so take extra precaution. You may even lighten it up some! Add a dab of Moly/30 wieght ND oil mixed lube (in the Library section) to the contact points. I would never use a dremil type tool for this kind of work. In this application method,....it's best done by hand. You can wrap the emory paper on a flat surface like a file,...or fold it multiple times to get a rigid sanding surface,...just "go easy". You can round off the 'sides' a bit,. but be very careful around the sear edge, which should be somewhat sharp for a crisp/quick release!!!!! Like lubes,......a 'little will do' when apllied to polishing triggers/sears!!!!! This is only from my experience with triggers. Best Wishes, tjk
PS Again, take your time,...especially if you decide to do any trigger work!!!
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Thanks for all the in depth help and motivation. Yes, I'm very new to springers, but I have been rebuilding stuff for decades so I'm well aware of the safety factor involved. I aqquired the RS 1 from a friend of a friend who knows about air guns and has a lot of them. The trigger sear is shiny and the spring is greased. There's no twang just a thud. Maybe it was tuned already.
( DUH...I never thought to ask him if it was ever apart and if so by who) When I went to buy a pellet gun...any one ...because of my immediate pest need, he said to pick any one I want. I took the most powerful one he had. In hind sight and many pages of this site later, I can see why he didn't protest; He was glad to get rid of it. I have no regrets, it served its purpose very well. Despite the heavy trigger pull, I eliminated all of my pest problem from 20-25 yds away.
I will make an honest effort to build a spring compressor this weekend. I ordered the trigger assy from Compasseco today. If it is not possible to fit it in, they said I could return it as long as I don't use it. I will know just by looking at it when it's apart whether it is worth the effort or not. I hope it is because it is a very accurate gun despite the heavy trigger and a new trigger will make it much better I'm sure. If it is workable, I'll order the spring tune kit from Compasseco and do it all at the same time. It will give me some good practice before I attack my Bam-26. I will try to post a picture of the bottom tomorrow to see what you all think. I will probably sell it when I'm finished. I just want to get some practice tuning, but Hey...you never know. I might like it too much to part with it. Look for it and my Gamo Delta in the classifieds soon.
***The good news is that I have learned so much here that I got the bug. I just received my new .22 cal BAM-25 from MM today. Very smooth compared to my stock Bam-26. I can see why you need to tune it. Imagine...3 months ago, I thought my kids Crossman 760 was cool. Since I got the Bam-26, they won't even touch the Delta or 760.***
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I started an album with the RS 1 trigger photos because if it works out, I'll document the trigger change for a DIY file.
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My apologies Gopher, your RS1 is nothing like the Titan or the Norica gun it was cloned from and the I.D. of my tube is right at 1 inch. Even if it [the trigger] would fit in there you would have to drill another pin hole to hold it in place. That is if there was enough room for it, with the smaller inside dia. I am sorry, I was going of the assumption that these guns were the same. They DO sell Titans (I've heard) with only single stage triggers. There is a way to tell which is which by the shape of the trigger guard.
Also the end of the Spring on my Titan goes another inch or more deep, (past yours) into the tube, about 2 & 1/2 inches from the back end of the tube. So, the Adapter to get your spring compressed would be different from mine.
The advice I gave you on which way to drive out the pins is opposite of mine, the knurled end in your third pic down is showing on the left side not the right. Soto disassemble you would drive them out from the other side:
In pic 3 ((RS 1 trigger3.jpg)
Sorry to have misled you, I guess that the RS1 is not the same as the Titan et. al. Guys
Cheers
Roy
N. Ca
Unknown Chinese Underlever .177cal; Unknown Chinese Youth-Sized Breakbarrel (w/Thumb release to disengage chisel latch on breech end .22 cal; Hammerli Titan w/Leapers 3-9x32 full-size MilDot Scope .177 cal.;
Hammerli Titan Custom built & Tuned by Gene_SC & CDT .177 cal.A very smooth shooter!!!; QB-57 2 pc Rifle in Hard Case w/Walther 4x32 Scope .177 cal.(markings on scope say "Hammerli"); 2 Gamo PT-80 Pistols.177 cal., one needs CO2 cartridge Tip Seal, 2nd one works great!!; Walther CP99 CO2 .177 cal. Pistol another Great Plinker; Walther CP88 CO2 Pistol .177cal. "Cream of the crop in my pistols collection"; Beeman P17/Marksman 2004 One-Pump Pneumatic.177 cal. Very accurate;Crosman 2240 Carbine w/ 17" .177 cal.barrel Built from the bottom up with spare parts by Mike N., 1/2" @ 20yds;Tech Force® S2-1X Air Pistol .177 cal. makes a good "Soft Mallet" if nothing else!!
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Found this in my notes:
Beeman RS2, Hammerli Titan, AR1000, TF89 mod list From: Network54 Chinese Air Gun Forum
So yeah, Im an Idiot
I'm taking ALL my Guns away from me.
Roy
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No problem at all. That's why I posted the photos, so we would all be on the same page. There seems to be so many copies and variants that there was bound to be confusion at some point. I know that I'd have to drill out the third hole. My machinist friend is going to do that so it is exactly in line with the other holes. (that is if the trigger assy fits in the first place). If it doesn't fit or seem possible, I'm going to shorten the spring and take as much of the preload out as I can without having it rattle around. With a weaker spring, it has to be easier to shoot just by having less pressure on the trigger. Having just purchased a B-26 and B-25, I really need something low power to shoot in the yard at 10M because the 25 & 26 are destroying my pellet trap at that distance.
I'll keep updating until I'm done.
Thanks again for the advice and support.
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Gopher, I have read your post and while I cannot give advice to help you, your comment regarding variants seems to be right on the money.
I have an RS-2 branded rifle and it bears no, I repeat, NO likeness to your photos as posted. I was quite surpised when viewing the photos. As an example my rifle has a solid trigger blade and an entirely different assembly of the housing area. And the interior view of the backend that you have is different compared with my rifle.
I thought the rs-1 and the rs-2 would be more similar in design.
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I understand gopher, but still I feel bad about steering you in the wrong direction. You know where you will run into problems is with the inside diameter of your tube, like I said mine is right at 1 inch (measured with a scale, so it could be + or - a 64th of an inch). That is what size thin walled (but strong) pipe or tube I have been looking for to modify into an adapter to tear down my Titan.
I too am a machinist gopher. Your slot, where the trigger goes into the tube looks a little shorter than mine also and the smaller diameter, of your tube, will make the trigger assy hang down further into the stock. If you can even get the trigger housing pushed in far enough to line up with your holes. If I remember right there is only 1/8th, maybe 5/16th's of an inch clearance between the top of my trigger housing and the 1 inch tube. With your tube being only 5/8ths of an inch it will be Very tight.
I have pics but they aren't mine and wouldn't use them without permission. They are Genes.
I mean No offense Gopher, just trying to help.
Roy
N. Ca
Unknown Chinese Underlever .177cal; Unknown Chinese Youth-Sized Breakbarrel (w/Thumb release to disengage chisel latch on breech end .22 cal; Hammerli Titan w/Leapers 3-9x32 full-size MilDot Scope .177 cal.;
Hammerli Titan Custom built & Tuned by Gene_SC & CDT .177 cal.A very smooth shooter!!!; QB-57 2 pc Rifle in Hard Case w/Walther 4x32 Scope .177 cal.(markings on scope say "Hammerli"); 2 Gamo PT-80 Pistols.177 cal., one needs CO2 cartridge Tip Seal, 2nd one works great!!; Walther CP99 CO2 .177 cal. Pistol another Great Plinker; Walther CP88 CO2 Pistol .177cal. "Cream of the crop in my pistols collection"; Beeman P17/Marksman 2004 One-Pump Pneumatic.177 cal. Very accurate;Crosman 2240 Carbine w/ 17" .177 cal.barrel Built from the bottom up with spare parts by Mike N., 1/2" @ 20yds;Tech Force® S2-1X Air Pistol .177 cal. makes a good "Soft Mallet" if nothing else!!
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No, You're more correct than you think. I made a mistake in measuring, but I couldn't correct my post.
See the RS 1 album for the correct measurements and spring information. When the new trigger and seal arrive, I'll get started.
The tube is 1" like yours.
Until then, I'm working on making a spring removal tool as shown in another post since these RS models are different than most.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?msg=update&albumid=120
-Gopher
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Can someone who has a Beeman RS2 or RS3 post a clear picture (or link of one) showing the trigger assy setup like this one.
So I can picture how it's supposed to be.
Thanks
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All the parts finally came in. I had to cut out the body a little and drill the third hole so that the TF-89 trigger would fit.
I aslo added a new seal, custom spring guide and brass top hat in addition to the trigger.
While I was waiting for the parts, I polished up the trigger internals and piston. After putting it all together, I have to say...
It's one smooth shootin piece of iron now. It cocks real smooth and the two stage trigger is real crisp.
It is a long way from the 100 lb. trigger pull I started with. I have to find someone on Long Island who has a chrony.
I'm curious as to what the FPS is now. Regardless of what it is, I'm leaving it alone.
The whole purpose of the de-tune was to get the trigger pull down to an acceptable level. Now that it's as good as my B-26 trigger,
I will shoot it as is and find something else to shoot in the yard.
Being told by more than a few people that the direct sear RS1 was a throw-away, helped me do it to. :)
There wasn't much to lose and everything to gain.
Thanks everyone for the advice and motivation to try my first mod.
Gopher
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Great post..only proves that success is achieved by finding ways and not excuses on why it's not going to work.
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Glad it worked out. Looks great.
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My hat is off to you and your machinist friend Gopher. I am glad you stuck it out and ignored the negativity I provided. LOOKS GREAT. Sorry for not keeping up with what was going on, but I couldn't find the original post. I was looking in the wrong section. BTW I sent you a reply to your PM asking where the original post was, but I have found it. Have fun with your new shooter.
Roy
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I have to say that it was not as hard to do as I thought it would be.
I used a Dremmel Tool to cut forward into the cocking slot about 1/2" and made a channel that would allow the trigger to fit in.
The hardest part was determining were to drill the front pin hole for the TF-89 trigger assembly.
I dry fit the trigger without the spring and grease to find just the right depth to make sure the piston catch would engage deep when cocking.
I had to make sure that it was at the bottom of the piston catch. The last thing I wanted was for it to fire unexpectantly when it was cocked.
Since I had to move the trigger forward, it meant that the spring space was also shorter.
I wound up re-using the old spring because it was straight but 1" shorter than the new spring.
I don't know if the new spring from Beeman was already set or not.
If it wasn't, maybe it would have shortened to the same length as the old spring when set. Until I need to change it, I'll never know.
If I decide to lower the power later, I can cut down the old spring, and I'll still have a spare to bring the power back up later.
All in all, it wasn't an expensive fix. The Tivar plastic spring guide, brass tophat, TF-89 trigger, piston seal, breach seal, and grease came to about $75.
I need to buy a new trigger guard because the new trigger hangs down lower the the old one. I'm hoping the RS2 trigger guard fits.
So, I still have to add that cost.
If I would have re-used the original spring guide and did the shrink tubing fix, the cost would have been about $50.
So, yes as I originally thought, if I sold the RS1 for $50 bucks and added the $75, I could have bought something similar, but
This is soooo much cooler.
If I had to rate the difficulty from 1-5, I would have to rate it a 4. Not that it was hard to do, but that you need an extreme amount of precision
to drill the new pin hole and get the trigger to catch safely. If it caught too shallow, it would hold, but it would be unsafe I think.
Once the hole is drilled, that's basically it. If you don't get it right, it's over.
While I feel that this mod was done with complete success and safety in mind. I will probably be the only one that will shoot it just
because of that little paranoia streak that I have.