GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : Dust June 01, 2009, 04:15:15 PM
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Been looking at all sorts of cheap chinese and US rifles and pistols, and wanted some opinions. Since I can't decide on a big gun because of the magnum springer recoil hold sensitivity or the pcp stuff, I thought I would go small, for backyard stuff first.
MAC1 Crosman 1377 - just read about the MAC1 getting the speed up to 6xx fps, sounds good for a pistol.
TF-everything
B 1-4
and others
So, what would be the good tinkerer for a AG newbie for birds in the backyard out to ~25 feet or so? Scope mountability would be nice, so the underlevers are kinda off the list, and I already have a 177 b3-1 that will get a QF2 kit when I get back.
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I believe I got an email from Natchez today that they have the Gamo Delta on sale for $49.95 right now. My Remington Airmaster 77 is a very accurate multi pump .177 caliber air rifle that you can find for $69.95 (some are charging $89.95).It's pretty quiet too, especially if you shoot it with five pumps (max of ten) like I do.
jon
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Crosman Quest 1000. PA has been seeling them for about $89.00 without a scope. As you get some spare change you can upgrade it. GRTIII trigger, Maccarri sping, scope and base, tune kits, etc. What started out as a great backyard plinker could wind up being a great little critter getter. Not that a Mac1 tuned 1377 isn't a great deal,(I love mine) but it will run more than a hundred with the price of the gun and a tune.
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How much do you really want to tinker?
Check out the Crosman Gate to see some real tinkering! :)
A 1377 converted to a carbine is cool. There is also the 2260 CO2 rifle.
Or if you really want to tinker, the Crosman 760! :D
This one has a rifled barrel from Mountainair Custom Airguns and a home-brewed stock along with some internal work.
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Try the Chinese QB 36-2, a full size underlever 177 air rifle with globe front sight inserts for under $89. It is a 900 fps gun, with a thick Mahonagy stock. I own two of them.
Douglas George
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If you really want to tinker, the 1377 @ $55 or sois hard to beat. Add a 1399 and you have a $80 carbine with almost unlimited potential.
But beware... then you'll need want a replacement pumper forearm, longer barrel, machined steel breech, shroud (pumpers are a little loud),flat top piston and extended bolt probe. THEN you'll want to start blinging it up, with laminate wood, bipods, lasers, you know, the regular stuff. You start reading around the forumsand looking at pictures, and pretty soon boxes start showing up at the door.
It's not a gun, it's a subscription.
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How far would I mod, about as far as the B-3 would allow, which is not much financially. Hence the "tinker" and not "mod". I like the 1377. The stuff I read on the Quest seems to be a little hit and miss, although when it works it seems to work well. I have really been thinking about eh QB36-2, but I don't know if I want another underlever. I will try to find some more stuff on the 1377, and see if it is convertible to PCP/HPA or if the other version of it is. Maybe one of each? I am not a pretty modder by any means, so I don't think that the ultra fine wood stuff woudl wind up on the doorstep, just speed or accuracy mods. Dad just told me he found a b3-3 for $34.95. Decisions decisions.
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I have both of these.
The Daisy NEEDS to have the trigger worked on, the stock trigger is GRITTY. Once you fix the trigger, it is a great plinker.
The BIG advantage of the 953 is that because it is a SSP, there is no spring recoil/vibration, making it MUCH easier to shoot accuratly.
The Gamo Delta, similarly has a rough trigger, but better than the Daisy. You can replace the stock trigger with an aftermarket trigger (like the GRT), which will make it MUCH better. BUT the trigger weight will be reduced significantly. This may or may not be an issue for you, depending on who shoots the rifle (you or a kid). I would not let a kid shoot mine w the aftermarket trigger installed (that is MY judgement call). The Delta has a short LoP (mine is 12-1/8" w the GRT trigger), the LoP on the Recon is a bit longer, and it looks to have a better angled pistol grip. (If the LoP was not longer than the Delta, I would have gotten the Recon for the better angled pistol grip).
Others to also consider are the IZH-61 and the Slavia 630 (or its replacement)
At under 25ft, I would consider using a red-dot sight instead of a scope.
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I wanted to edit the OP, but it seems I can't. I would like to set a minimum velocity to 625 fps. What doors would an extra 25-50 open for me?
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See if you can find an IZH60/61. Been discussing these on the Dianawerk. Wish I had picked up one of the steel receivered ones when they first came out, although the new five shots are nice, too. I think they may have been based on the IZH46 pistol. Everyone who has one loves it. Here's the link:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1243421685/last-1244026875/Fun+guns!+for+around+%24100.
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Today's Pyramid blog is all about the IZH-61. Don't know how I missed one of these, but I guess it was during my magnum period. They do have a good reputation.
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/ (http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/)
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Just noticed one for sale on American Airguns Classifieds... http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/show_ad.php?adNum=9252&adSort=&StartingAd=0&NumberOfPages=4 (http://www.airguns.net/classifieds/show_ad.php?adNum=9252&adSort=&StartingAd=0&NumberOfPages=4)
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The better way is to define what you what/how you want to shoot, then determine the guns requirement from there.
Cranking up the velocity for shooting at less than 25ft will only increase the recoil/vibration, making it harder to shoot accurately.
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I have been thinking and wanted to clarify what I am looking for. Would like to be able to shoot in a back yard, but have enough to get out to 30 yards if needed. I think that 6XX fps would be a good place to aim for. Targets would be birds, or something of similar size. I think that a multi-pump would be really nice, kinda a poor man's PCP. The 2100 has really caught my eye, and it seems that the pneumatics don't have much recoil as compared to a springer. the 22xx and the ability to go PCP would be nice, but I don't know enough about the money involved.
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I wanted to try to post some more info of hat I am looking at. I am looking or a gun that can be used in a rural backyard for birds. 25 yards maximum.was looking at a multipump pneumatic like the 2100 or the 137, but some have said that they don't have enough power to put down anything.
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The 2100 or the "Remington" Airmaster 77 has been known to take small game and birds at that range and closer. No problem. Can be very accurate with the right pellet. I have a 2200 (.22 caliber version of the 2100) and it is very good shooter.
A 1377 with some work can take game too. The 1377 and the 760 have almost the same power plant and most of the 1377 power mods with work on the 760 too. The 2100 can be modded for more power as well.
If you can spare a little more $$$ check out a Benjamin 397 (.177) or 392 (.22). The Benji is a good, solid, accurate rifle. Mostly wood and metal with very little plastic.
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I can't find anything on modding the 2100, aside from aesthetic stuff. How much slower is the 2200 than the 2100? is it worth it to go to a 2200? DOn't plan on using BB"s in the gun. Dad had a benji, but they just look to "something" to me, just never really liked one, but would take it if given to me.
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Can't edit. How loud is the 21/2200 or the 392 or 7 gonna be?
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I know the Benji is going to be loud. The 2100 im going to guess is as loud as my daisy 880, which is just a loud pop. Neighbors just hear small pops. I would say a 2250 would be a good choice. Literally thousands of mods to that gun. You can go HPA, bulk co2, Dress it up, dress it down. Pretty much whatever you want to do you can.
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Check this out:
http://www.network54.com/Realm/CFTech/FB2200.htm
It shows a 2200, but other than caliber, the 2100 is much the same critter.
The 2200 is no longer in production, but they show up in the classified from time to time. They shoot in the mid 500's. I have read of guys converting 2100's to .22 with a new barrel and few internal parts.
Nice thing about a 2100 versus the Benji is the ease of mounting a conventional rifle scope. I have a big pistol scope mounted scout-style (ahead of the rear sight) on my 392. Makes pumping easier, as a Benjamin is a bit hearder to pump than a 2100/2200.
The 2100 and the Benji can be loud when fully pumped. For most plinking and paper punching you don't need to be fully pumped though. At four to six pumps they are not too bad noise wise.
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How much to PCP/HPA a 2250?
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Crosman Nightstalker, it is THE fun gun for backyard plinking. Just get enough clips and CO2 or bulk it. Actually I only seem to use my Nightstalker and FWB nowadays, one is accurate as hell while the other one is fun as hell :)
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First decision: Do you plan to leave it stock, or modify it? Second decision: Do you want to pump a bunch of times, or only once? I've got an inexpensive Tech Force TF-59 here with an inexpensive Centerpoint scope which eats Daisy Precision Max wadcutters ($3.99 per tin of 500 at Wal-Mart!) and dumps them into a nickle-sized hole at 22 yards. With RWS Hobby pellets, it chrony'd at an average of 824 fps. 770 fps with Crosman Premiers. Simple, relatively maintenance-free, and lethal enough for birds and small pests.
I've also got a TF-78 CO2 rifle (QB-78) which will clean the 9 and 10 rings with CPHPs and Crosman Pointed pellets (in .177) and though it's shooting much slower, it has the more enjoyable trigger of the two. If I were to hunt, I'd take the TF-59 and the 3x9x32 AO scoope. If I'm going to plink, the TF-78, two CO2 Powerlets, and a 4x32 AO Xisico scoope is the choice. There are some nice mods available for the QB-78 series rifles...
On the other hand, there are some great deals on springers floating around. Compasseco has an open box B26 (a copy of an R9) for just $129 right now! I had one and they're fantastic! I only sold it because I've got a TF-89 .22 coming back from repair (tiny burr in the receiver prevented the piston from cocking) which shoots Crosman Pointeds like a LASER! I do mean it's precise! The B26 was a little tougher for me to manage as my trigger hand didn't like the stock to trigger relationship. For $129 though, it's a darn good deal! The B26 is remarkably well-built. Forget everything you've ever heard about Chinese-built air rifles.
So, this gives you some new ideas.
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Pumping multiple would be fine because I could control the power. I have been looking seriously at the b26 from Mike Melick. Not much of a plinker anymore. Not a bad price on the b-26, but for $35 more I can get a tuned b26 or a tuned b25 with scope and rings.
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I did one-hole groups with my B26... untuned. Buy it, clean the barrel, shoot it. Enough said. IMHO there's no comparison between a B25 and a B26. The trigger on the B26 alone is worth the price.
Of course I sold mine to help fund a Marauder... LOL
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I would go for the 2100 ina heartbeat. put a 4x32 scope and it should be plenty for any bird or squirrel up to 35 yards. I got mine zeroed at 25 yards on 4 pumps. super quiet at that level. Or shoot it indoors at the office with 2 pumps and only 10 yards. starlings do not like it at 4,5 or 6 pumps, depending where they are standing ready to catch a 7.9 gr crosman hollowpoint, which it loves. it increases little less than 5 yards with each extra pump. At 8 is loud but it will knock a squirrel clean off the tree at 40 yards. 10 pumps is unnecesary and i might use that for a opossum at somewhat closish range if i get the chance.mine pushed 7.9 gr at 10 pumps at 737 fps avg. Is loud at that level and also somewhat inaccurate. leaci it at 5/6 for everyday hunting. just keep it clean and oiled,and tighten the screws once in a while. I also have a sheridan (well, 2 of them...) and they are very similar. The sheridans are a bit more stable during shooting but louder and heavier. go with the 2100. you will not regret it. If you do want another option, check out the daisy 22sg. It is quieter than the 2100, has wood and metal and packs some punch as well as being easier to pump. the 2100 feels heftier but the 22sg is a better rifle.
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Would you recommend the 22sg over the 2100? Don't know if I wanna go with a 22.
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for hunting bigger than small bird game, absolutely. The 22sg has a limited range, 40 yards is a very long shot, as you can see it arching. The 2100 is a better long distance shot as it can shot straight passed 40 yards (8+pumps). the 2100 is a better paper puncher. But the 22sg is probably the quietest unsilenced rifle available. the whistleing of the pellets flight is louder than the rifle's action. If you are going to keep the 2100 at 5 pumps and only take down birds, the 2100 is perfect. to take a crow down, the 22 sg will suffice at 25 yards. the 2100 will have to be a headshot and with heavy pellets...And the 22sg is nicer because of the wood and metal that it is constructed with. the 2100 has a lot of plastic. But having bothe will set you back about 150 bucks and then you dont have to choose. if you are going to target shoot, the 2100. If you are going tocontrol pests, the 22sg wins hands down. hope it helps.
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and also the cool thing is that the 22sg's pump does not get any harder to pump at 7/8 pumps... my 8 year old dughter could pump this to full capacity with no problem. at 8 pumps with hobbies (11.9) rws it shoots an average of 545 fps. I pump only to 7 and it has never needed a back up shot. The 2100 shoots 737 avg with rws hobbies (7.0) at 10 pumps. but pumping after 5 pumps is really a chore. So most of the time it gets shot at 5 pumps (6 if going far [40 yards+]). the 22sg is as quiet at 7 pumps as the 2100 at 3. dont dismiss the 22sg as it is a lighter feeling rifle. But if you dont want a .22 the 2100 is the way to go. And if you dont want to spend all that cash, check the daisy 880, essentially a 22sg in plastic and .177 (just not as sturdy, but it shoots hard). No matter which one you get, please do not shoot BBs out of them even if they say they can. You will sacrifice the accuracy of your pellets by destroying your rifling. I got rifles that cost 10 times as much, but as you can see i got a strong spot in my heart for this little pumpers. maybe the fact that i went to war, or hunting indians and robbers as a kid with similar rifles... I just never realized the potential those little plinkers had... good times then, and good times now...
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Yes i agree. A pumper is a lot of fun if you have the patience to pump. After a while though, i find myself wanting my storm back lol. I have 4 daisy 880's two are the newer all plastic models and 2 are the older plastic and metal models. The metal models have an advantage in strength, but the are louder to pump because of the two pices of metal clashing together. The all plastic models are quieter to pump, and just as powerful. Here is a cowbird i shot with my 880 at 15 yards. He was in a tree, and never saw me coming. One shot to the head killed him, but he flipped over on the branch , and didnt release his grip, so i threw rocks at him till he finally let go.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/Brod_Man/Miscillaneous042.jpg) (http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/Brod_Man/?action=view¤t=Miscillaneous042.jpg)
It was a perfect headshot that exited right behind the eye. This gun is really accurate, an im just using iron sights.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/Brod_Man/Miscillaneous043.jpg) (http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb293/Brod_Man/?action=view¤t=Miscillaneous043.jpg)
So if you want a good plinker/hunter the daisy 880/ crosman 2100 is a good way to go. And to answer your question about HPA 2250 costs. It all depends on your adapter you buy. Search yahoo for bryan and associates. They will have everything you need from new valves to hpa adapters to tanks. They will get you setup. You could also check out the crosman forum.
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Get yourself a TF-97 springer in .22 cal!!! The trigger is "rough", but the barrels are pretty dang good. You may have to adjust the rear iron sight a good ways, but once you get her set,...you'll appreciate the sub $100 investment. After you learn how to shoot it,...then get a Gamo/Crosman and add the GRT-III trigger and you'll think your're in "Air-Gun" heaven. A Quest 800 (.22 cal) can be bought for around 100 bucks and they're easy to lube tune for a DIY'er. And that will make a world of difference!!!!!! Good Luck, tjk
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hey tjk. Do you have a Crosman Quest 800x? If so can you pm me i want to know something about it.
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I guess right now I am at the b26, the tf89, and the 2100 or 1377.
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The Remington Airmaster 77 is a Crosman 2100 that looks different. Mine is a great shooter. The problem with the Airmaster is that it only comes with a cheapo scope. I put a Leapers 4x32 airgun scope with AO on it, and it makes a fine setup. The 2100 can be bought with the same scope, or with no scope. Interestingly, my Remington (made by Crosman) doesn't like Crosman pellets very much, as they seem to be a very loose fit into the breech. But the gun likes so many other pellets that it is easy to come up with winners. RWS Hobbys, Diablo Basics, Super H Points, Gamo Match wadcutters, Gamo Hunters, Beeman Laser Sports, Silver Bears all do very well in my gun.
jon