GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => China Gate => : kkoenning June 17, 2009, 09:57:14 AM
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I seem to be having some issues shooting my Ruger blackhawk with any consistency. I do not have this problem with my Crosman G1 Extreme, Remington Summit, Gamo Big Cat, or Gamo CFX. Occasionally I am able to shoot a nice tight group with the Ruger, but usually I get a grouping that is good left to right but is not good in the vertical direction.
I have checked, loctited, and tightened the pivot bolt. I have made sure the stock bolts are loctited and tightened. I have tried two different scopes--the original and a Leapers 3-9 x 32AO, both mounted on Leapers accushot rings. I have tried resting the stock on my hand. I have tried resting the stock on a shooting bag. I have tried resting the stock on a rolled up towel. I have tried a loose hold. I have tried a tight hold. I have tried Crosman Premier hollow points, Beeman hollow points, Gamo hunters, Gamo match, Crosman pointed, JSB Diablo Exacts, RWS Supermags, and Beeman Kodiak extra heavy pellets. Everything seems to give me the same results.
First image is a grouping using RWS Supermags before zeroing for the heavier pellets. Next image is after rezeroing the scope. Last image is the most common type of grouping.
What is going on? I suppose it is something I am doing/not doing. But, I'm stumped. As I said, I do not have this problem with my other springers.
Distance is 25 feet (indoors).
TIA for any suggestions.
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Just a thought if you have a chrony run some through it and see what the shooters pushing and what kind of spread your getting FPS wise. A chrony can tell you a lot about a shooters health and the problem may be on the inside, just a thought. :) Ed
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Hmmmm Check the barrel lock up. Hold rifle on the table securelyon it's side and see if you can move the barrel up or down. Just a couple thousands will make you shoot high one time and then low another. Just a thought. I do not think it is a consistency problem but merely a loose lockup or a loose nut behind the trigger...:) Just kidding.
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Hehehehe Gene were all putting our fuseboxes together to see if we can get you fixed up, loose lockup Genes onto something there for sure. :) Ed
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Check this out >>
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shadow: Chrony shows an average of 950 fps with a extreme spread of 40 fps. (Using Gamo Match pellets.)
Gene_SC: I cannot detect any movement of the barrel up or down while holding it on its side.
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40FPS extreme spread :o a 10FPS spread or closer is good in a ten shot string, wonder if the piston seal went south. Is it making any funky noises when you cock it or fire it?. I keep thinking piston seal though but we'll get some more info and suggestions coming in from the family here. :) Ed
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Hey Leo, thanks for the pics. They look like some of my targets..:) Is there one that shows when you have drank to much coffee in the mornings..:)
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I need my java and without it my shot's would look like that lol. Ed
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Actually 40 fps is not bad for an untuned springer. I do not think it is a bad seal causing your problem. Look somewhere else. And it would not be a spring either. Remember that the Ruger Air Hawk is the same power plant as the RWS 34 series air rifles. You may be dealing with a hold problem.
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Gene_SC: I suspect it may indeed be a hold problem. Do you think one of those adjustable shooting rests might help? Not sure what to try next.
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Have you tried moving your hand further back on the forearm of the stock when shooting ??
I have a TF-89 .22 cal that is very hold sensitive,,, it took me quite a while to finally nail down the hold that the rifle likes. My style of shooting/hold usually has me placing my left hand well forward on the forearm of the stock and it works well on all my air rifles..... all except the TF-89 that is.....
One day while shooting I moved my left hand much further back on the stock, a little less than 1/2 way to the trigger guard and whatdya know...... problem solved :)
Since then me and my TF-89 are getting along wonderfully.....
It's a shot in the dark but I figured I'd mention it to ya,,,,,, hey,,,, ya never know.....
Jeff
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I tried moving my hand back as you suggested and shot a pretty good group. Thought that the issue might be solved. Shot two more groups and it was back to the same old poor groups. Can't quite figure this one out.
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I had a bit of a problem when I got my Air Hawk as well. I put in a JM spring and seal. With FTS's average 889 fps, 13 spread, 4 SD. Now I can cover 10 shots with a dime at 20 meters with just an occasional flier. Open it up and lube/tune and change the spring & seal then find the right pellet.
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how many shots through the barrel??? might need to be run in....
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Keith, if you have less than a1000 shots through your Ruger,...I'd say the barrel is still in the seasonning process. I suggest you don't clean the barrel too often,...let her lead up some. Then a swipe or two with a dry patch to buff it some. Another thought that comes to mind is your scope. Not the mechanics of it,...but more likely where it's set with the AO and the magnification. I'm thinking paralax problems more than anything. Obviously your a great shooter from your posted groups!!,...but I keep thinking your settings may be off a tad. When you look at the target with a clear view of the rets and the target,...if you slightly move your head/eye a bit and the target shifts,...you may try adjusting the paralax a tad bit. I've experienced this with a few of my rifles, and this seemed to help me when zeroing from a bench. Just a thought. Best Wishes, tjk
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Not sure exactly. I would guess something in the neighborhood of 350 to 500 shots.
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OK then,...Forget accuracy and shoot the crap out of it for the time being!!!!! LOL's Once you get her slicked up and buffed,...then you can start going for the one-holers!!!! I'm sure you'll get those in no time at all!!!!! tjk
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fixed this issue on one of my rifles. I almost sent the scope in...
On a lark, I took the scope and mount off, re-seated the mount and was very careful tightening up the bolts again. Also, not sure if this is right or not, but when I remounted the scope, I made sure the stop pin in the mount was tapped to the rear before tightening up again. Also don't tighten the stop pin hard since this might loosen the grip of the dovetail mount. Just tighten enough so the pin doesn't loosen up. The stop pin doesn't need to be real tight like the rest of the mount. Saved myself some shipping costs, and this fix was free!
YMMV
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I have the B-25, which is the exact same thing as the Ruger. I found out that mine likes to be rested in front of the middle of the forestock--much further forward than where I rest all of my other rifles. It is hold sensitive.
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One more thing---at first, I had some vertical stringing. As soon as I shimmed the breach seal, it all went away. Check your breach seal, too.
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Already shimmed the breach seal some time ago.
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Just keep shooting it, some of the Xisco barrels take awhile to get happy....keep trying new pellets also...
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I have a thought for you Keith,
I have found that the placement of the stock is very important on the rest ! A little forward, or a little to the rear will change your poi.
I had to mark the stock so that I would always place it in the same position. This goes with hold sensitivity.
Hope this helps you !
Bill
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Have been shooting the Ruger a bunch and yesterday I noticed that the groups were tighter. Did some more shooting today and the groups are looking pretty good. Guess it just needed more shots through it? Groups are starting to be tighter more often. I wonder----is it the gun "breaking in" or is it me getting used to how to shoot it properly?
One thing I did learn--the Ruger DOES NOT LIKE JSB Diabolo Exact (8.4 gr) pellets! It seems to like heavier pellets such as: RWS Supermag (9.3 gr) and Beeman Kodiak Extra Heavy (10.6 gr) pellets. I will try some of the lighter pellets and see if I can find some that will group well.
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My own Bhawk can't shoot anything under 10 gr. worth a darn. With 8 gr. it's at 1000 fps so it might be just to powerful for the lighter stuff, keep banging away at the target and you and the gun will become one....
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What Mikeiniowa said....some springs are just abit too powerful for the airgun. I have a Crosman Sierra Pro that was SO inconsistent....Thanks to Bentong for posting those photos....but none of them looked like my groups. My groups were 7 in a 7mm hole and then the other 3 would be all around the clock....always, with any type of pellets...and this were shot at only 8 meter distance.
Checked everything; scope, mount, stock screws, changed scope, iron sights, changed hold position and grip strength.....nothing worked. Finally the spring broke after 3400 shots. Put in a new Crosman spring, deburred, cleaned and put on new lubes, new scope.....still didn't help. Finally I cocked the rifle and left the spring sitting for 10 hrs.....tested it and the accuracy were better. So left the spring compressed for another 10 hrs. and now it is shooting excellent. At 30 meters off a camera tripod I can put 10 shots into a dime-sized hole. It's so good now, I took off the scope and use it for the 25 Yard Open Sights Rifle Match.
But from what you've just typed.....it seems your Black Hawk is starting to settle down....either the barrel is seasoned or the spring is a little compressed and abit weaker.
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Just when the groups were looking pretty good consistently, they have opened up into a pattern again. Instead of tight 3/8-in groups, I am again seeing 3/4 to 1-in patterns. I am using the same pellets that were consistent (RWS Supermag 9.3gr); the scope has not moved according to the marks I put on the scope and the receiver; I believe I am shooting (holding) the gun the same. I am shooting in the same location at 25-feet from the target in my basement.
It occurred to me that maybe the bore needed cleaning, so I ran a couple of dry patches through it. First one came out slightly soiled--not very much. Then I ran another dry one through it. Did not help.
Next I decided to chrony it. For a string of 10 shots, I got a high of 880fps, a low of 873fps, extreme spread of 7fps, average velocity of 876fps, and a standard deviation of 1.7fps. Seems like that should produce consistent shooting.
There are probably 1000 to 1200 shots through the rifle.
The rifle has been lube tuned and the breech seal has been shimmed. I am at a loss for what to do next. This has been going on for about 10 weeks and I am ready to resign myself to the fact that the rifle is not going to shoot as consistently tight groups as my G1, Summit, CFX, Big Cat, or B26.
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Maybe you need to run a patch with Hoppe's No. 9 barrel cleaner down its barrel to give it a good cleaning. Just be careful not to wet the breech seal....it could get ruined. I did that once with my Gamo Viper and Crosman Storm XT, when they were losing accuracy......after the Hoppe's treatment.....the guns immediately got their accuracy back. Hope it works for you.
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Have you tried different pellets now that the rifle has some age on it? Sometimes a gun will crave a different pellet after it breaks in.
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Yes try different pellets again. My Air Hawk didn't care for FTS's at first. It settled on CP's. While I was waiting for a shipment of pellets to come in I retried the FTS's and found it now grouped better then the CP's.
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Your struggle is like mine with my Air Hawk. I've been doing all the same sort of things, cleaning, changing pellets, scope adjustments, removing scope and using the open sights, tightening screws, changing grip, changing resting point and object used, using artillery hold, using a death grip hold, etc. etc. for two months. :0
Let me know if you ever get good groups. Best for me is about four out of five in a decent group with at least one flyer 3/4" away, almost never in the same direction either. More usual is a decent group of three with one bad flyer and one semi-flyer. I've been shooting in the basement with a steady temperature, no wind. In other words I have eliminated environmental variables pretty well. About the only thing that changes is barometric pressure.
I am about ready to give up on springers, this is my first I am sure there are some that are accurate, but my three pumpers are all more consistent. At my age I do not have the years to develop a proper hold technique. I shouldn't have to buy a gun and then pay extra to have a tuner put it into proper working order (Sorry Charlie).
I'll keep reading and posting too if I can manage any improvements.
Popadave in PA :0
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An Addendum to my previous post. The first two or three times I viewed the original message I was unable to see the pictures. After I posted the above I was able to see the three pictures of the targets. Except for number three, what is your complaint? I would be happy to get groups like your first two pictures! Most of mine are like number 3!
Popadave in PA
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from the breech end. A 1/8" dowel from Michaels Crafts will do. Hardware stores have them too.
If the pellet finds loose spots, especially near the muzzle, the barrel is bad. A top-end rifle like a Beeman will be evenly snug around the pellet for the length of the barrel and possibly cause the dowel and pellet to squeak an even note like a woodwind.
Thanks to Mike Melick for telling me about this cool test.
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I've never seen anyone mention this kind of test. Mike has a great and growing reputation on various boards. So a 1/8" dowel will be obtained and used. I will report back.
Popadave in PA
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My complaint was that most targets look like the third one. The first two targets are the exception.
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Agreed. It's not the two nice sets, it's the third set is the norm. Most of my sets look your third, or worse! And that is my problem too. I won't be able to get a 1/8" dowel until Saturday to try that test. I'll keep posting!
Popadave in PA