GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : larspawn July 05, 2009, 12:49:39 PM
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Guys,
I keep hearing people caution about using too light and too heavy pellets and the damage it can do to your gun. I believe in the warnings about using PBAs as not having enough resistance does seem plausaible that it would allow the piston to slam into the transfer wall too hard.
Now onto the "heavy pellets will fatigue and crack your spring"...I dont' buy it. If that were the case then someone has to convince me that a B25, B26, RWS 34, RWS350 or other rifles that offer .177 and .22 use different internals. I am under the belief that the action is completely identical and the only thing difference is the barrel. So why don't we see a bunch of .22 rifles with busted up springs? I have a B25 and a B26 in .22 and they are holding up just fine.
So I think we need to stop saying you will ruin your spring if you shoot .177 heavies (what like 10.8 grain usually) if the same rifle action with different barrel is shooting .22 at 14.5 typical pellets. Now I wonder if this could be true if you shoot really heavy .22 Eun Jins from a springer. I save those for my Career!
What are your thoughts on this?
Andy Wong aka larspawn
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Have you tried shooting your summit with 10.9 .177? Let's say consistent diet of said pellet and if nothing happens after1K shots then it's a myth. Anyway springs and seals are consumables as they say..I'am with you bro, go for it.
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Andy, I do not mean to be rude but keep on shooting them light pellets and heavies..:) I will need more work next month..:) It is not fiction but fact about what you hear form some of us old timers. And I tune lots of guns and see the damage and know when someone is shooting heavies or to light a pellet. Takes a new spring every time and alway a new seal. I could send you some of the busted springs I get every week if you like..
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Yes I find the heavy pellet damaging the spring hard to believe also. You think it would slow the spring recoil,and how can that damage it. But I do have a TF-99 .22 cal. and all last year I shot Daisy Precision Max Flat nose @ 14.3 grain. This Year I switched to the JSB Jumbo exacts 15.8 grain. And the spring did break before I finished the tin of 5oo. I'd like to keep using this pellet, it groups the best in this gun. So I switched to a JM 9870 spring. hoping it will last for years to come.
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I'm on my second box of CP heavies in my Crosman Storm. So far no problems. I have been shooting at targets 25 to 50 yds . The rabbits and squirrels don't complain either( dead rodents tell no tails).
AL
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Hey Gene, trying for some provocative dialogue here.
If that is so, then why is it harder on a spring to push a 10.5 .177 "heavy" but not so hard for the same spring and seal to push a 14.5 .22?
Not doubting you've come upon broken springs. I would guess that is why a lot of them are going to you in the first place but I don't know if the logical conclusion is it was caused by heavies. Could just be general spring fatigue?
Looking to learn.
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Ha, I still have a few of those stupid PBA pellets sealed in their container. After I shot CPHPs that went supersonic for the first 7 shots, I figured the neighbors didn't need to hear more of that!
Okay, I'm also a conspiracy theorist so I do believe Gamo puts those in there so they can sell more rifles! But the stupid marketing guy didn't figure on more warranty claims!
Andy Wong aka larspawn
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Gene,
Okay I haven't shot any 'heavies' out of your RWS 320. I started with CPLs and it liked them so much I stuck with them. Didn't like Silver Bears.
I have been regularly shooting CPHs from my Summit and TX200. So far so good...
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I BROKE 3 BENJAMIN SUPER STRAKE .177 IN 7 MONTHS (OCT 2008 TO MAY 2009). THE PROBLEM WAS ALWAYS... BROKEN SPRING. I USED WITH THOSE RIFLES 10.5 CP. THE RIFLES WERE ON WARRANTY SO WHEN I RECEIVED THE THIRD ONE FROM WARRANTY, I SELL IT AND I BOUGHT A MARAUDER .177 THAT I RETURNED LAST FRIDAY FOR A REPLACEMENT, BECAUSE IT HAD A LOW LEAKING. IN MY CASE I FOLLOW THE REVIEWS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE MORE TIME THAN ME IN THE HOBBY, THAT SAVE ME MONEY AND TIME. I LIVE IN PUERTO RICO AND I HAVE TO PAY A DOUBLE OF MONEY FOR SHIPPING, WHEN I HAVE TO RETURN SOMETHING FOR WARRANTY.
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Hey Andy,
I have learned everything thing in my life from older experienced people that have been around the block a few times. And they have NEVER steered me wrong yet.
Now you you never have to take advice, you can always learn the hard way, many do ! But just think about it for a minute, if Gene, an AirGun Tuner, tells you that he has seen these cause problems, and you listen to him, you will save money and time sending your shooter off for repairs. If you don't listen to him, either Gene or James Maccari WILL Make Money on you, or both ! Either way, it's your money.
Bill
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You make a good point, I'm no tuner or anything, but really what is the difference in a .22 shooting a 14 grain pellet or a .177 shooting a 10.5? take the whisper, both the .22 and the .177 use the same stock springs, just a different barrel,,, that I know of,, but like I said i'm no tuner
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That's point should (should!) be true. Let's look at the Beeman R-1/ HW-80. To my knowledge (and someone speak up if I'm wrong) was made in all 4 calibers (177,20,22 and .25). I think ( I maybe wrong) that it used the same spring for all 4 calibers. So, that spring would deal with pellets ranging from say 6.9 grains (.177 RWS Hobby) to 43 grains(.25 Eun Jin). So, would not you be imparting the same strain on the spring if you shot a super heavy .177 (i.e Eun Jin 16.1 grain) as you would a JSB Exact .22 @ 15.9 grains? Logic would say yes. I think it has to do with the area of the barrel .(177 versus .22 etc ) and the force applied to the pellet of a given weight divided by the square inches or something like that. Now to echo what Gene said, Russel Best, one of the best known and well respected spring gun tuners, has said several times on the Yellow forum that heavy pellets shorten spring life, and he's been tuning springers longer than anyone here. That said, if heavy pellets are the most accurate in your gun and you want to shoot them, go ahead. Springs are like the brakes on your vehicle. They start wearing out from day one. Springs are generally inexpensive and easily replaced. Most people can do the job at home with basic tools and skills. They're your rifles and you can decide what's best for you.
Best Regards
Nathan
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Hey all. My post wasn't to challenge or take or not take any wisdom. My post was to get the discussion going. Please don't make this out like I'm debunking anyone. I've posted a theory and looking for someone to explain why "heavies" will break your spring.
If I keep shooting 7.8s and the spring breaks can I blame it on shooting pellets that weren't heavy enough? Come on guys, looking for some engineering theory behind the statement that "heavies" will break your spring. Like I said, I believe the theory on shooting lights will damage your rifle but I haven't heard anything yet to explain the "heavies" claim.
My point is that we hear this but nobody who says this can explain why...
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Here is a link about this. Hector's comments explain.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/184474/thread/1246194031/last-1246824037/DO+heaver+pellets+really+damage+your+rifle--
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It's a balance thing as the link to the excellent post above alludes to. You also need to learn the gun! I also shoot heavy (no greater than 10.5's) iin several .177 guns. The spring wire diameter if it is less than .128 dia is not heavy enough to take the abuse. Especially in .177 bore , or so it is said. The thing is, there are no medium powered springers that have springs with wire that heavy. In fact there are hardly any springers that do . Even guns that are referered to as "magnums ". Then there is the issue of spring and gun quality. Personally I shoot what is most accurate in my guns and base that on shooting groups of ten shots and through the use of a cronograph. If a .177 can give velocities in the mid 700fps with a 10.5 grain pellet with better accuracy than a lighter "normal" wt. pellet, I will use it. I will list a recent example. I just tore down a delux HW, R-10 bought new by me in 1986. This gun had a slightly hotter spring in it that gave an honest 1000fps with 7.0 grain pellets. (spring wire dia. of the old factory spring is .118) It also shot poorly with them. It was also a gun reported to have a "brittle" spring prone to breakage, according to the experts. So, I've been using kodiaks , and later when they became available, CP 10.5 grain pellets in it for the last 23 years. Probably something like 20 to 30 thousand heavy pellets in all. Why? Because they shot the best, and still gave decent velocity. Recently the accuracy dropped off, so I tore it down. Seal finally went bad. The spring exhibited some cant , but was not broken. Put in a Maccari hornet seal, spring and lube tuned it. Now it likes the wonderful JSB Exacts best, a normal weight pellet (?), so that is what I will use now. Of course they weren't available when I started shooting springers, nor were there any expert tuners or forums filled with do's and don't either.
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Well Larspawn, you wanted discussion, and you got discussion. Personally I stick to the average weight pellets. Nothing too light nor too heavy. Mostly due to lack of availabilty of pellets in my area. However, to actually test the idea that too llight/too heavy pellets cause premature spring failures would reguire a test platform that I doubt most individuals or companies would be willing to invest time or money on.
It would require a test of a number of springs all produced from the same wire, under the same conditiions. Then these springs would have to all be stressed under the same forces that could be measured until failure occures. All of the testing would require a careful accounting to insure the same number of compressions and expansiions. Even the same temperatures etc. This type of testing is not practcal for home gamers. All aspects would have to be known and measureable.
It is doubtful that the average air gunner would ever be able to obtain 2 or more springs from the same batch. Then install them in 2 or more seperate air guns. Then count the exact number of times the gun was cocked and fired and with what pellets. And do this until failure.
This being said, I feel that the hyper light pellets are just, that hype. I tried a few and put them away. If I ever find some 10 grain pellets I may give them a try. Besides, springs are like everything else mechanical that is in motion...eventually they will fatigue and they will break.