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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Gamo Gate => : Bullfrog31581 July 14, 2009, 02:04:03 PM
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Hello,
I'm new to airguns, but not to shooting. I recently bought two Gamo Whispers, one in .177 caliber and one in .22. The .22 has the Gas Ram upgrade from Pyramid Air. I'm having serious problems with the .22 as it relates to scopes. So far, the gun has busted two scopes and won't hold a zero with two others. The first scope I tried on the gun was a Gamo Varmit Hunter. It would not hold a zero (it was mounted correctly and was not moving). I then replaced it with the scope that came with the gun. It held a zero fine but then the recticle inside broke after a couple of weeks of shooting. I then tried a Tasco Gold Antler, which would not hold a zero. I then bought a Bushnell Outdoorsman from Walmart, which held a perfect zero for a week. However, this evening it busted (it went out of focus after a shot and something came loose inside that I can see rolling around).
It seems that this gun really punishes scopes. My question is, can someone please recommend an ultra tough scope for this gun that can take the punishment? I like the gun itself. Its accurate and has a lot of power. But it won't do me much good if I can't get a scope to last on it.
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Travis,
No question that the air venturi packs a wallop. I installed one in my 22 Whisper.
Even before the air venturi, the gun trashed the Gamo scope that came with it. After that, a Tasco I had been using on 20 gauge slug guns.
I ordered a Leapers 30 mm Mini Swat with an Acushot one-piece mount. All seemed fine after that.
Then I installed the air venturi. After a few hundred pellets it would shoot a couple into the same hole, then the next few would be all over. The more I shot it, the more it got to be fewer stacked and more scattered. I was begining to suspect that the Mini Swat was going too.
Then I read on here about how a blown seal can cause POI to change around like a broken scope. So I opened it up and found the original Gamo seal had small chunks blown out of the edge with splits in the lip. Put in a new J. Maccari seal a few days ago.
I also found that the 10-32 locating pin in the underside of the Acushot mount, which has only a 1/8 diameter tip, was cracked and bent over into the aluminum of the mount. The mount had been very well trightened down with Lock-tite on all threads before, but it still moved on the reciever. The locating hole in the Whisper's recieved is 1/4 and the mount had moved enough to push the pin into the edge of the reciever hole making a large burr inside and out before the pin broke.
I had to hammer the reciever burr smooth on a mandrel before I could get the air piston out. Re-drilled the recived hole round again, then I drilled out the 10-32 threads in the mount and pressed in a 1/4 mild steel pin to make use of all of the reciever hole edge surface.
Now, after about 50 pellets it's much better at holding POI. The Leapers Mini Swat is no longer suspect and I'm waiting see how it all is after it wears in more.
Paul.
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Thanks for the reply. I considered that I might have something wrong internally, especially because 2 scopes just plain wouldn't hold a zero (or appeared not to). However, the Bushnell held a zero fine for a week until it busted. I took the Bushnell back to Walmart today and exchanged it for a Centerpoint. I just came back inside from shooting... the new scope busted in less than 30 shots. I got the Centerpoint cited in and holding a zero, but somewhere around shot 25-30 it went out of focus and the zoom control is jammed. It also lost zero and is now shooting all over the paper. This is what happened to my Bushnell, except it never lost zero even though became unfocusable.
I can't have a gun that I can't scope. For my purposes (varmit hunting), I need a gun I can scope for longer shots and for night hunting. Plus I enjoy shooting a scoped gun over open sights. My options now are either sell the gun and get something else (maybe a PCP?) or replace the air-ram with the spring. Any suggestions?
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My Whisper wasted 3 scopes just like yours. The gamo scope and 2 centerpoint scopes from Walmart. I also have the Bushnel from Walmart and it's working well. If that scope goes I plan on ordering one from Straightshooters.com. Check them out. They have scopes listed as light, medium and heavy recoil. Granted they will cost more than a Walmart scope, but if you like your rifle and how it performs I would get a heavy recoil scope from Straightshooters. Goodluck. Let us know what you decide to do.
Regards,
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So far, the Leapers Mini Swat is holding up fine.
The gun is calming down a bit as it wears back in. For the first few shots I left the scope off and just shot it at the coal bin next to my basement range. It was deiseling a bit. Blowing super domes clear through the one inch rough-cut boards of the coal bin at about 6 yards. After about 6-8 shots it then only buried them about 3/4 way into the same board, as it was doing in past. Then I put the Leapers back on and re-sighted in. It's been fine since.
Paul.
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I've been researching PCPs, but realistically I won't get near as much money back if I sell off the Whisper that I've put into it and I can't afford to sink $700 plus for a new Marauder or Talon SS with scope and air tank. I'll do what I can to make this gun work. Otherwise its a good gun. I put the iron sights back on it tonight and it groups well. It only took 4 shots to knock the rear sight loose, but all it takes is a push down on the rear sight and it pops back into place for the next shot.
What about a scope rated for a shotgun? Are shotgun scopes more rugged than regular scopes? I don't mind spending money on an expensive scope, I just don't want to dish out alot to have it bust in 500 shots.
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Here's how it grouped with the Bushnell at 25 yards before the scope busted. This is 5 shots with Predators (top picture).
The bottom picture is how it groups with the open sites at 23 yards. The gun is pretty consistent. It just packs too much wallop for my scopes.
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Get this one and enjoy your rifle.
http://www.straightshooters.com/hawk/hawk3940airmax.html
Regards,
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I do not own a Whisper but I do own a Leapers Golden Image TS scope.
I can not say enough good things about them. They seem to be good scopes
that can take some punishment.
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I have the hawke airmax 3-9x40 on my .25 cal theoben gas rammed webley patriot
and a leapers gen 5 .3-9x40 on my 22cal rws 350 mag BOTH have given me NO PROBLEMS.
you could aslo try a dampamount , i had one on my patriot w/ a rws 6x40 scope and had no problems
with that setup either.
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If you have access to a chrony fire a string to make sure that you are shooting where you should be. A lot of scope problems are because of bad piston/breech seals. As mentioned if you can get a Dampa mount,this will help a lot. Try to get as small and light a scope as you can. It will have a better chance at survival. Hawke Air Max 2-7X32,3-9X40 are tough airgun rated scopes with a great warranty.
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What is a dampamount? and where would you get one?
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http://www.pomona-airguns.com/Theoben%20Accessories.htm
scroll about 1/2 way down and it explaines what the dampa mount does
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Will busted seals cause actual scope damage? Other than shooting through a chronograph, what do I need to be looking for to determine is the seals are damaged?
Yesterday the vibrations from shooting caused the two side screws holding the gun to the stock to come out. They were last checked for tightness a week ago. I didn't seem to have problems this severe for the first couple of weeks I had the gun. I've got around 1000 rounds through the gun. It still diesels severely after a few shots. It smokes like a .22 longrifle.
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Sounds like what mine was doing. The original seal was damaged and the increased power of the air venturi just made it worse. The seal had chunks missing from the edge. Replaced it with a new J Maccari seal. It's calmed down some and not dieseling like it had been.
Plus, now I can see that the scope was not having a problem holding zero. It was the inconsistancy of the dieseling that made it seem like the scope was at fault.
Paul.
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Yes a bad seal allows for piston slam and the scope suffers. The vibrations will also cause screws to loosen. If it is still dieseling after 1000 shots I would suspect your seal was damaged when the ram was installed. Normally a .22 doesn't have as harsh a firing cycle as a .177.
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Read this first and then the others. These explain about my whisper, which had the same problems as you. I sent my gun off to Gene for a tune. Other than sending it back to pyramid, I had no choice. Read ,research and have fun learning about your rifle. If funds are tight, These guys and gals will teach you all you need to know about tuning your own rifle. Explore the science of it all. Wish I had the time.
Regards,
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18827&posts=7&highlight=whisper&highlightmode=1#M152239
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18827&mid=152021#M152021
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18592&mid=150226#M150226
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Thank you to everyone for the responses. Based on the feedback it sounds like busted seals might be my issue. I'm going to read the threads that doc1310 posted. I am on a budget, but no matter what I chose I'm going to have to spend some more money either to get things fixed or get a new gun. What kind of price range might I be looking at to get the gun tuned?
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As long as your ram is fine all you would need is a new piston seal/breech seal/piston buttons. Some polishing and lube with a trigger should be about $100 plus shipping. But you would have to verify that with a tuner.
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FWIW, I have the Wal-Mart CenterPoint 4-16x AO scope on my Air-Venturi'd Whisper in .177. When I installed the AV ram in my Whisper, I also did a tune and replaced the piston seal. The AV made short work of my factory Gamo scope, which I had previously had problems with.
My rifle has been VERY consistent since the AV install and CenterPoint scope and I've now put approximately 1,000 shots on the clock with this set-up. The scope has not lost it's zero, and I can easily and consistently ring a 8" x 8" metal gong at 100 yards with it at my shooting range.
I can also hit soda cans full of water at 50 yards without any trouble, and domed pellets (JSB exacts and RWS super domes) punch all the way through (Crow-Mags expand too much and lose too much energy at that range). The rifle is just a solid thud when shooting, and at 50 or 100 yards the sounds of the pellet hitting the gong is louder than the shot itself in the range house. Guys who I've let shoot it at the range are surprised how well it shots and have a lot of fun with it.
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I've sent my .22 off to Gene for a turbo tune. I also sent my fiance's .177 that has the factory spring installed. I'm hoping a good tune and new seals will fix my problem.
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Good luck. My tune from Gene did a great job. I'll post numbers soon.
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Was so happy with how good my Whisper was shooting. Then today I was shooting real tight groups and then my scope focus just went to pot. Tried to get it back into focus by going back and forth with the adjustment and found a spot that was a little better. Shot one time and it changed again. I guess it is trashed. So I will read more on what scope will hold up to the Whisper??? My last group was 1/4 ' and shot the center out of the target. Damn.......Chort
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Was this scope the Bushnell that you just got? If it was then take it back and try another. Maybe you got a lemon. Straightshooters.com list scopes as light, medium and heavy. You might try one of their heavy recoil scopes. Something you might also try is removing the Gamo scope base. In mine the stop pin holes were becoming egg shaped. So I removed it...( you have to remove the stock and take off the plastic end cap to remove the scope base.) I then used the Gamo one piece mount on the dove tails and so far it has worked fine.
Good luck,
Paul
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Hey Chort, about how many shots have you fired before the scope went?
I am still less than 500 estimated, and scope seems ok so far. Kinda expecting trouble in the future, because every now and then I get a flier and a different sound from the gun. Thanks
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I figured I have a little over 500 when it went. Even the cross hairs broke apart. I just put a bushnell 4x12x 40 I got at WalMart today on the Whisper and sighted it in. I will put the XXL bushnell on the Rem.1200 when it comes in. I think it is the same one that Walmart sells for 69 dollars. I paid 99 for it at Optics best buy. Guess I should check closer next time. The Rem 1200 can hold dime size groups at 10 yds. with open sights so I will be interested to see how it does with the scope at longer ranges. Also ordered a GRT 111 trigger for it. It seems to shoot quite fast and doesn't seem to recoil as much as the Whisper? It does have a nice looking walnut colored stock on it. It also likes the Crossman 7.9 hollow points that I have. Glad of that cause I have a tin of 500.
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Not xxl I ment the 3x9x32 bushnell for the rem. Also have to get a one piece scope mount for it also
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I did have a Walmart Bushnell that busted. It lasted for a week before it went. It held a zero well, even after the focusing mechanism broke. After it broke, I took it back to Walmart and exchanged it for a Centerpoint. The Centerpoint died in less than 50 shots.
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Good news and bad news:
The good news is that I got both my .22 Whisper and my fiancé’s .177 Whisper back from Gene today and it appears he did a fine job tuning the guns. The .177, which uses a spring instead of an air-ram, is much quieter to shoot and all around shoots much smoother and more consistently. According to the charts, the .177 has gained close to 30 feet per second in velocity and has an average deviation of 1.70 fps and a max deviation of 6.0 fps. Before the tune, its average deviation was 6.30 feet per second and its max was 27 fps. The .22 didn't gain or loose any velocity, but it now shoots solidly in the mid 720s fps range, with an average deviation of 2.60 fps and a maximum deviation of 9.0 fps. Before the tune, it had a maximum deviation of 39 fps and an average of 7.20 fps. Also, my .22 doesn't visibly diesel anymore.
The bad news is that the tune hasn't stopped the .22's violent recoil. After an afternoon of shooting the rear sites have been knocked loose again. After having the gun tuned, I can only conclude that the problem is that the air ram is just to powerful for the gun. My options are either to take the air-ram out and replace it with a spring or to make the gun heavier in the hopes of giving something for the energy to vibrate into besides the scope. I'd prefer to keep the air-ram if I can. I hate to send my gun off again for another few weeks after I've been parted with it for so long. Also, the fact that I can leave the air-ram cocked is something I need for hunting.
Thus far, my plan is to fill the hollow areas of the stock with something (maybe spray-foam or silicon?), add a heavy recoil pad, buy a Hawk scope rated for heavy recoil, and switch to ultra-heavy pellets. Can someone add to or comment on these ideas?
If there's a positive to the air-ram trouble I've been having, its this... that darn thing causes a pellet to pack a wallop when it hits, even more so after the tune. Today I shot a hole through a board of cherry wood the size of a quarter after a few shots. I haven't had that happen before.
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This afternoon I filled my .22's stock with silicon. I plugged the bottom of the stock with heavy foam and filled the cavity to the brim. Before the fill, the gun weighed 5 pounds. After the fill, the gun weighs 7.5 pounds. I also added a Sims recoil pad that I had laying around. I'll let it cure overnight and I'll shoot it tomorrow to see how it does.
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I hope it works for you. I finally put the 440 wood stock on my Whisper. Tomorrow will see if anything has changed or if it has effected accuracy and recoil. Still has a noisy spring.
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Yes the gas ram does pack a punch! I'm sure that you will enjoy it more now that Gene tuned it. Since your still worried about your scopes, I'm really hopefull that the Hawk scope will solve your problem. One last thing to consider. Is it possible that your doing something wrong when you mount the scope? Do you still have the Gamo scope base on the rifles dove tail? Are you mounting a one piece mount or two? There are instructions in the library here. You might want to go over them before you mount the scope. Just something to think about. Good luck. Lets us know how you make out.
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I'm using a one-piece mount. I am also using Gamo's scope base. I'm not getting any slippage when I shoot, but I've had to replace the scope base one because the hole where the vertical screw goes got too banged up.
The reason I'm pretty confident that the problem is the recoil itself is because it only takes a few shots for the screw for the rear sight to be worked loose from the gun. Continued shooting will work loose the screws that hold the gun to the stock. I can only imagine how much energy must be shooting through the gun to do that. The .177 doesn't work anything loose when it is shot.
The silicon did seem to dampen the felt recoil considerably as well as quiet the gun. However, the back site worked loose after a few shots. My hope now is that the Hawk scope can take the punishment.
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Installing a 1/4 inch stop pin in the Acushot one-piece mount seems to be holding my Whisper's scope in place very well.
Also....
After reading Gene's suggestion of using heavier pellets with an air spring , I tried shooting preditors again.
Before I installed the air venturi the gun did best with Super Domes, not so well with the Preditors.
Now with the air venturi it's switched. It shoots the Preditors better, and the Super Domes not as well as it did before. The Preditors are only 1.8 grains heavier, but it has made a noticable differance.
Next pellet order, I'll try some even heavier pellets and see what happens.
Paul.
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Well.... I'm getting very frustrated now. My .22 is smoking severely again with every shot and its throwing pellets with elevation rises and falls with as much as 4 inches. I've put somewhere between 100-150 rounds through it since I've had it back. For the first day it didn't smoke and was very accurate,. Now its behaving as it did before. The .177, on the other hand, shoots like a dream. Its giving me .5 inch groups at almost 30 yards.
I'm about ready to chuck the .22 in the garbage. I've spent a lot of time and money on this gun; over $300 for the gun + air ram, around $150 on scopes (those are the ones I couldn't return), and $150 on a tune. I could have bought an Airforce PCP or a Marauder for that much. The .177, on the other hand, was $250 for the gun and $179 for the tune, no small amount, but darn it its a good shooting gun. I regret buying the air-ram. As a newcomer to airguns, I feel burned by a bad purchase. I recommend staying away from the air-ram if you want a Whisper. The spring with a good tune appears to be the superior gun in my experience.
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Sad to say, but that sounds like another blown seal.
Paul.
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Sorry to hear that Bull. Ask Gene what he thinks. I'm sure he has some type of warranty on his work. What weight pellets were you shooting? The air ram is very powerful and heavy pellets should be used. My gas ram whisper was having the same problems as you and a tune from Gene fixed it all. It's a .177 and I use a 10.5 gr. pellet in it. He says I can use a 8.4 gr pellet but I can't buy them locally. One thing you might consider so you don't throw away the rifle is to rebuild it yourself. It won't cost as much and you might have a lot of fun. The plans for the spring compresser are here on this site along with just about every single step on how to do it....and if you get stuck....just ask the guys. We have lots of experts here and they love to share their knowledge. Like you, I felt burned with a bad purchase. Most of us have a like story. It happens, and I'm sorry it happened to you, but you now have nothing to lose and a lot to gain by rebuilding it yourself. Lets us know what you decide.
Regards,
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I'm shooting Predators and Crossman Premiers in the .22. The Predators group the worst, which is surprising because they used to group well before the tune. Predators shoot excellent in the .177 post tune.
Right now I'm going to see if Gene can examine the gun and take the air-ram out and replace it with a custom spring. Although I want the advantages of the air-ram, I think its the root of my problems. The recoil is just too violent. I suspect thait it was the air-ram that blew my seals the first time and possibly the second time (presuming they are blown now) . Maybe I have a bad one. But as it is, I'd rather have a good working spring gun then a poor-working air-ram that yes, I can leave cocked and is powerful to boot, but I can't trust in terms of accuracy or consistency. If that doesn't work out for some reason, I'll try my hand and rebuilding the gun on my own.
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So I was experiencing the same symptoms as the original poster here including metal deformation at the rear of the ram area.... finally gave up and sent the Whisper back to Pyramyd. They replaced the AG and the new one is doing much better. The ram doesn't seem to be as strong, there is no smoking, no scope drift/damage. Really like this AG and glad they were able to make it right.
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There may be more than one model of gas ram being used for the "Air Venturi". That may account for the differances some are seeing.
The one I recieved from Pyramid is slightly differant than the one CO_AirGunner shows in his pictures of installation done shortly before I did mine.
Anyway, turns out my troubles weren't because of the air venturi. Stupid me, the gun had a bad seal before the swap and I never checked it when I had the gun open.
Also, the scope mount stop pin was 1/8 inch diameter and my Whisper has a 1/4 inch stop pin hole in the reciever. No way the pin could stay in one spot with that much play.
Honed/de-burred the bore, put in a new seal and a 1/4 inch stop pin. Now, the Leapers scope I thought was trashed, isn't. It holds zero just as it should.
Realy nice scope for the money.
Paul.
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UPDATE:
In the end of October I sent my .22 back to Gene to see if he could take out the gas ram and replace it with a custom spring (I was delayed in sending it earlier because I just got married). I got the gun back a little over a week ago.
I am VERY pleased with how it performs now. It is much quieter and it doesn't shake the iron sights loose like it used to. I have a Walmart-special Bushnell scope on it and so far its holding up well. I can't shoot it every day because I live in an apartment now and don't have a back yard to shoot in. I'm going to the deer woods this afternoon and may take it with me to do some plinking. I'll try to get some pictures up soon to show how its grouping.