GTA
Politics and Religion => Politics And Religion Discussion => : grackledown September 14, 2009, 11:50:16 AM
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If someone were to say to you that Americans are like mice or rats, would you take it personally, even though they didn't mention you by name? And if they suggested that Americans should be killed "like rats", would you consider that to be a challenge to you? And what would you do?
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No, I would take a couple of deep breaths, then I would consider if a response to something I considered absolutely absurd was even warranted, and if I did respond, I would respond in such a way as to address the issue, not demean myself by rising to the bait of a provocative post and lowering myself to that sort of language. I believe that if you give it some thought and don't respond too hastily, you could come up with a much more appropriate way to respond and make your position know. But in any case, if for no other reason that being asked politely and sincerely by me, please never post that kind of comment here again - I would hope you have the education and the class to do that for me and the other members of the GTA fourms. Thanks for your consideration.
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I will concede your point. But I must confess that I am less likely now than I was just a short time ago to try to reason with the unreasonable. The spectacle of last weekend and the incredible ugliness of those so called Town Hall meetings (did you see the woman in the wheel chair?!) have proven to me that it is truly a waste of time to try to reason with a percentage of people in this country. How can someone be both a Nazi and a Communist?!?!!!! The ignorance that is on parade is truly frightening to me. This ignorance is dangerous and will not result in anything that will serve the common good. But it isn't just the ignorance. It is the rudeness, the hate, the crazy look in their eyes, the unwillingness to listen to anyone with an opinion different from your own. And yes, the racism. Deny this if you like, but I can't see how any person of at least minimal perception can come to any other conclusion after the events of the past few weeks.
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OK -- that's better.
No, I didn't see the ugliness you respond to, but then, I watch FOX news, not NBC. But I do recognize the tactics of Saul Alinski, now, when I hear them, and I feel compelled to try to explain to you that here are rising millions of Americans who will no longer be marginalized, or shouted down, or dissuaded by name calling and false characterization of motives. But I do understand your frustration about trying to reason with the unreasonable.
"The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men."
You should recognize that quote, sir, being from Massachusetts. And if you think and consider carefully, perhaps you will come to recognize what is going on in these United States of America and why. But I, like you, I suppose, I sincerely despair of the failure of reason with those who ignore reason, and who charge, headlong, down the road to serfdom.
Have a pleasant evening.
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I'm originally from Massachusetts, - Cambridge as a mater of fact (51 Norris Street) - it's not something I'm very proud of these days.
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It isn't so much about where you are from as it is about where you are going, I guess.
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i must say that johnnys post was really provocative, disrespectful and even violent.
@TCups
the problem with these protests it that people on them are not the sincere constitutionalists as some like to believe, they are right wing sponsored, Glen Beck inspired drones. Chanting the usual "FOX news" slogans, behaving violently like some 14 year olds, succumbing to populism.
I know you are a critical and self aware person, but i bet the majority over there are not...just look at the slogans and how they behave. If it is not already it will be hijacked by republican/right wing agenda...which is just as bad (and let us not start again).
I have no doubt the majority will be voting republican on the next election...they'll vote without a single thought whichever rep. candidate will be made popular. I just hope you as a respectable person will think twice before voting.
And besides the protesters were in tens of thousands not millions. There's a thing called the internet, you can read both sides in a matter of minutes...unless you don't want to, of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_protests take a peek at who are the main sponsors of the Tea parties. don't fool yourself, some are sincere constitutionalists, but most of them are just herded sheep.
Please don't think this is a conspiracy or something, oh no, it's just how things work, rich people have always controlled things, why should it be any different now? Hell, your forefathers were rich. It just happened that some of them were idealists and managed to put trough the constitution before it was corrupted.
And you don't have to be american to understand this concept...it's applicable almost everywhere.
yeah and Nazism and communism generally didn't like each other that much.
http://beltwayblips.dailyradar.com/video/beck-fan-and-9-12-protest-attendee-explains-why-obama-1/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWFQraYkNNQ&feature=player_embedded#t=86
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Hear us!
See: http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/09/912_was_a_transformative_event.html
Saul Alinski said something like "You win when you make our political opponents play by their own rules." Name calling isn't going to deter the rising tide of conservative backlash against BO and his brand of liberal fascism. I just want you to know what a warm, pleasant feeling it gives me every time I read a liberal blogger's apoplectic post about what America's (and again, sir, America with a capital "A") conservative movement is up to. Ultimately, I suppose we must thank President Obama. Americans are finally fully awake and are highly motivated. I look forward to next year's mid-term elections.
Nazi's (National Socialists) and Communists (Marxists) have a lot in common. And both were strictly left-wing movements. You can read what you want and believe what you want. Being from Tennessee, I know very well about how many folks 100,000 looks like in a football stadium. I have seen the 3.5 hour time lapse of the procession. I am so proud of the growing Conservative movement in this country and have, finally, a feeling things are about to "change", but not like BO and the liberal fascists in this country had intended.
But thanks for the liberal Canadian point of view. It is good to occasionally inject a bit of humor, even if unintended on your part, and even if it is from a foreign national with no real sense of what is going on here in the USA, eh?
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Is it just me or you don't understand what i'm saying? I'm not cheering for BO, i thought that was clear.
I'm criticizing your choice for an alternative to BO, but it seems you jumped on the populist bandwagon.
liberal fascists, conservative fascists what's the difference, eh?
Nazism had some things in common with communism, to take from everyone and give to the elite party members.
Nazi ideology stressed the failure of both laissez-faire capitalism[citation needed] and communism, the failure of democracy, and "racial purity of the German people", as well as Northwestern Europeans and persecuted those it perceived either as race enemies or Lebensunwertes Leben, that is "life unworthy of living".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party
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Nazis and Commies have quitea bit in common. Back when they were both contesting the streets in the Weimar days, they tended to recruit from each other's ranks.
Once you are radicalized, and convinced that most people are idiots and only an informed elite can force some necessarysocial change, the biggest differencesare your icon and your marching songs. The Spanish Civil War is a horrible monument to what can happen when these two "opposites" start fighting over the steering wheel.
The whole silly left v. rightterminology has confused this in many minds. American conservatives should, by nature, be opposed to any forced change by any kind of government. They are the people who should believe that government is a necessary evil and the less of it, the better. At its radical fringe you find libertarians, cranks, and even anarchists (not the 19th century kind, who were really socialists). The religious conservatives may have their own radical fringe, butit is not about the role of government.
The opposite is the group that looks to government as the source of salvation, and feels government is here to change and rectify the human condition. At its radical fringe you could easily find both communists and fascists. The reason "Nazis" aren't recognized as "leftists" in the modern sense is because they were so violently racist (which clouds the issue). Take that off the table, and you have a typical socialist agenda.
It is still unfortunate whenever someoneintroduces "Nazism" into a political debate. That is the end of the debate and the name-calling begins.
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It seems you always find something to criticize. You don't cheer for BO, but you imply the band wagon for the other side is just as bad. You imply populism is the same as conservatism. You imply that most conservatives don't understand why we are angry or why we are protesting. You seem intent to minimize what, by all credible accounts, was the largest single peaceful protest by American citizens against current government policies in anyone's memory, and to opine that those who participated were unaware of why they were actually there or that they are somehow under the control of some other force beyond their comprehension -- mere sheep in a larger, elitist passion play we can never fully understand or effectually change.
My choice is an alternative to BO's policies. Let me say them again. I am against massive government, government programs that usurp individual freedoms in favor of statist central control and ignore any aspect of personal responsibility and individual freedoms of all Americans. I am against spending so massive that the indebtedness of America makes us all paupers. I am against monetizing that debt by printing worthless dollars and guaranteeing that inflation must follow. I am against power hungry politicians, Democrat and Republican, who put their own personal agendas and financial gains ahead of the well-being of ever common American citizen. I am against socialism, Marxism, fascism, communism, and all other varieties of powerful central government structures that reduce the population of a great nation to mere serfdom.
As for my choice to the alternative to BO -- yes, geiger there is still a choice and Americans will be continually called on to make that choice, for better or worse. As for what now is called liberalism (versus the classic liberalism of those like, for example, Daniel Patrick Moynihan), the current brand of American 'liberalism is characterized elitist progressivism, judicial activism, moral relativism, radical egalitarianism, reverse racism, and a fascist statism.
The political thought of BO and the elitist leftists of his ilk says loudly and clearly to me and many others that we are "rednecks", we are "morons" with educations little better than "4th graders". That we are "southerners" by and large inbred racists who never got over losing the Civil War, that we are rural-living Americans who live in the "red, fly-over states and aren't smart enough or perceptive enough to be trusted with our own personal freedoms and responsibilities. We are Bible thumping fundamentalists who cling to religion and firearms, we are conservative capitalists who wrongly and smiplistically think that we should be entitled to keep what we earn and not be the slaves to the latest government entitlement program. That we are just stupid, and greedy, and small-minded and wrong when it comes to doing what is enlightened and best as determined by those with better brains than ours.
We surely need the elite Harvard, Yale, Princeton graduate types, who are better educated, who have never had a real job, who are the political "chosen class" to tell us how our country and our lives and our children's lives should be run, and how much of our hard-earned paychecks it is "fair" for us to keep, and to reveal what our real, subverted, tawdry motives are, and why that is wrong, and how such thinking is destroying the planet or endangering the welfare of others with a different political point of view. And we surely must need the advice of more enlightened foreigners to remake the American political system into something better, more desirable, more enviable. Something that affirms the opinions of, for example, a liberal Canadian observer to the process.
If you don't understand the similarities and differences of national socialism, communism, fascism, progressivism, capitalism, individualism, and conservatism, and if you think that they are all just different verses of the same tune, then perhaps you should consider the possibility that you may just be horribly wrong of your assessment of the American politics and what is best for American citizens. But perhaps that is just my uneducated opinion, eh?
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geesh...calm down a bit. first of all i haven't done any personal attacks, yes some generalizations, but nowhere near to what you're accusing (the redneck morons and stuff). it's true that i have less respect for someone who doesn't think for himself and draw it's own conclusions, but people like this are on each side. (do you really think all BO voters chose him because of his ideals, instead of the fact that he was considered "in" , "cool", "not Bush").
all i'm saying is that the modern conservative/republican movement is not what it used to be and it is just as corrupt and "not for the people" like the modern democrats.
and if you'll vote republican the next time you'll betray yourself and your ideals, that's all.
i think it's dumb not to realize that more than ever in the last decades America is opting for a new, third political party that is in touch with the roots and distanced from the power hungry professional politicians (democrats and republicans alike).
mark my words, i already know what will the slogan for the republican party be next time...something along the lines "bringing America back to America". which of course will be no more than just a facade...they'll still maintain the system and serve those who paid for their campaign (guess who) and not really care for anyone else who hasn't the privilege to be a CEO of some corporation.
seriously how the hell do you expect someone to serve the people when the majority of their funds came from private firms. beats me
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geiger: "oh and one more thing...if i'm not mistaken the USA doesn't belong just to the "south" and southern ideals, if you know what i mean."
TCups: No, sir, I don't know what you mean. Perhaps you will explain it to me and other American citizens exactly what you imply about the "south" by making such a comment.
geiger: "as long as most of these protests aren't sponsored by deceptive corporations and other kind of lobbyists (which i believe part of them are) i don't have anything against them. but i bet 50% of protesters have no effing idea why are they there."
TCups: So which deceptive corporations and lobbyists are you accusing of rabble rousing and what is your evidence for saying so? Do you mean to imply (as it seems to me) that it is impossible for a bunch of individual Americans concerned for the future of their country to organize and come together to do this without some larger, darker, controlling force behind them? Is "community organizing" bad, and if so, what does it say about our current administration? I, on the other hand, feel certain that it is something quite different that motivates the protestors -- the love of their country and the anger over what is happening to America at the hands of the current administration and its policies. But perhaps that concept is beyond the understanding of some.
And you seem to say that half the demonstrators who have "no effing idea why they are there" -- implying what? -- that they just wandered in on a mindless whim for a weekend of BO-bashing or because someone or some organization (perhaps the conservative counterpart of the SEIU, whatever that is, or the NRA, or whoever) paid them in "walking around money" to be there? My opinion, sir, is that both your opinions are unsubstantiated, and, in fact, patently absurd.
But thank you, I suppose, for your opinion and allegations to the contrary, and for the opportunity to again express my opinion to the contrary.
And by the way, geiger, I am calm, sir, quite calm. And fully attentive. And very focused. And highly motivated at this point, like never before, to be active and vocal and involved -- any inference to my being hot-headed quite to the contrary. And I do look forward to your explanation about "the south and southern ideals".
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TCups - 9/15/2009 8:33 AM
geiger: "oh and one more thing...if i'm not mistaken the USA doesn't belong just to the "south" and southern ideals, if you know what i mean."
TCups: No, sir, I don't know what you mean. Perhaps you will explain it to me and other American citizens exactly what you imply about the "south" by making such a comment.
it belongs to every law abiding, tax paying (lol), legal US citizen, despite his political (not sure if the Nazi party is banned) and religious preferences (even atheists). (not sure if there's even *_*_*_*_*_*ual preferences, fill me in about this, but considering that the US is signed member of the human rights treaty...then yes).
geiger: "as long as most of these protests aren't sponsored by deceptive corporations and other kind of lobbyists (which i believe part of them are) i don't have anything against them. but i bet 50% of protesters have no effing idea why are they there."
TCups: So which deceptive corporations and lobbyists are you accusing of rabble rousing and what is your evidence for saying so? Do you mean to imply (as it seems to me) that it is impossible for a bunch of individual Americans concerned for the future of their country to organize and come together to do this without some larger, darker, controlling force behind them? Is "community organizing" bad, and if so, what does it say about our current administration? I, on the other hand, feel certain that it is something quite different that motivates the protestors -- the love of their country and the anger over what is happening to America at the hands of the current administration and its policies. But perhaps that concept is beyond the understanding of some.
insurance companies and different interests group paid people, procured them transportation to drive around and protest at town halls and told them how to act.
http://forums.about.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=2&nav=messages&webtag=ab-usliberals&tid=18752
And you seem to say that half the demonstrators who have "no effing idea why they are there" -- implying what? -- that they just wandered in on a mindless whim for a weekend of BO-bashing or because someone or some organization (perhaps the conservative counterpart of the SEIU, whatever that is, or the NRA, or whoever) paid them in "walking around money" to be there? My opinion, sir, is that both your opinions are unsubstantiated, and, in fact, patently absurd.
well i admit i might exaggerated a bit by saying "no effing idea", but considering the guy i posted was almost directly quoting Beck and the crowd cheering for him. doesn't help them.
But thank you, I suppose, for your opinion and allegations to the contrary, and for the opportunity to again express my opinion to the contrary.
And by the way, geiger, I am calm, sir, quite calm. And fully attentive. And very focused. And highly motivated at this point, like never before, to be active and vocal and involved -- any inference to my being hot-headed quite to the contrary. And I do look forward to your explanation about "the south and southern ideals".
and i had the answer before even posting that :)
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So . . . no more than that to say about your terse little verbal jab at "the south and southern ideals?"
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nope, that's all there is to it, what did you think it would mean? you know that i don't generally resort to personal attacks. if you meant i was implying "rednecks, bible thumpers, gun totters, uneducated folk,...", then you were wrong.
although you must admit that in the southern states general trends are "less urban dwellers, avid religious people, general likeness for guns and possibly even of lower education (although the last one could be disputed)". i'd of course never take this as being less of a person or use these "traits" for malintent.
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geiger - 9/15/2009 9:00 PM nope, that's all there is to it, what did you think it would mean? you know that i don't generally resort to personal attacks. if you meant i was implying "rednecks, bible thumpers, gun totters, uneducated folk,...", then you were wrong. although you must admit that in the southern states general trends are "less urban dwellers, avid religious people, general likeness for guns and possibly even of lower education (although the last one could be disputed)". i'd of course never take this as being less of a person or use these "traits" for malintent.
Do I have ta post a pic of a nasty ole TROLL.
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Nawssir, I 'spect we ain't nearly so urbane as de backwoods canucks way up dere, north ways, who jes' loves to stick dey troll noses into 'Merican polyticks to see iffin dey can git a rise out of barefoot southern boys. But it always be's an edjukation fer us to see jes how de folks who knows dat dey so much smarter dan de simple folk down heh'r in de south is, eh?
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YEP, UHH HU....
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TCups - 9/15/2009 7:14 PM
Nawssir, I 'spect we ain't nearly so urbane as de backwoods canucks way up dere, north ways, who jes' loves to stick dey troll noses into 'Merican polyticks to see iffin dey can git a rise out of barefoot southern boys. But it always be's an edjukation fer us to see jes how de folks who knows dat dey so much smarter dan de simple folk down heh'r in de south is, eh?
so that's a yes?
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say what?
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you agree with me in my second last post?
well if you don't
population density
http://i.treehugger.com/files/population-density-us.jpg
religious uniformity
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/churchbodies.gif
gun ownership
http://www.swivel.com/graphs/show/26466731?limit_modifier=all&graph[limit]=51&commit=%3E
education
http://oldamericancentury.org/edu9.gif
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Ya'll jes gonna hafta talk jes a little bit, slower, Mistah Geiger. You Canadians sho talks funny an' I cain't quite make out what 'tiz you are a'trying to say. An' by da way, jus' where is Canada on de big map?
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the Beck tactic, eh?
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Us southerners has always practiced relijous freedom, boy. Long as a church calls itself a Baptist church, you is free to woship as ya please, know what I means?
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hehe, that sounded kinda funny
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Now don't be mockin' me, boy. I jes might hafta take ya down a notch er two iffin' ya keeps dis up.
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Well I think whats really wrong with America is that we have been listening to Idiots like you for so long that now we need nationalized healthcare like you guys have. So If at all possible could you stop yourposting of your views.. Its obvoius that you guys have already f'd up your own system, please don't pass it on to us...
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what? it was funny, really. how's that mocking anyone?
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You is th' mockee, boy. I is mockin' you. HeHeHe An' I thinks that there JohnBoy Quest has a point 'bout th' trolls on this here site. The only thang worser than a damned Yankee troll is a double-damned Canadian troll. But g'night now, 'cause I has to git up early in th' mawning to hep tend grandpappy's still and den hep granny slaughter th' hawg. An' tomorree nite is th' start of th' big Wednesday nite revival at the Holiness Church of Zion Valley New Testament Meeting House and Baptist Church.
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C-ya at church tomorrow night Tcups (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-laughing.gif)(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif)
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JOHNNY QUEST - 9/15/2009 8:15 PM
 Well I think whats really wrong with America is that we have been listening to Idiots like you for so long that now we need nationalized healthcare like you guys have. So If at all possible could you stop your posting of your views.. Its obvoius that you guys have already f'd up your own system, please don't pass it on to us...
with each post you prove even more you have no idea what i'm talking about. really, national health care? leftist? please read all of my posts again and take note, then come back here and we'll talk.
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Your mother was a wore army boots and your father stank of elderberries. Iturn in your general direction.
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Gentlemen, there is a switch in your control panel that will let you put your favorite posters on Ignore.