GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : Gopher October 16, 2009, 01:21:16 AM
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I have to admit I know little about tuning AG's, so I have to go by the majority of advice here.
After reading a lot on how to tuneup myspringer, I thought you were not supposed to put oil in the piston chamber.
I've seen three different sites that recommend putting in a few drops in there after every 1000 shots to lubricate the seals.
Is it a special kind of oil, or are they just encouraging us to speed up the seal wear. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused004.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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You should not put any kind of oil in the compression chamber or barrel. If the gun is properly lubed, it should never need any. It will be self lubing for years.
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This is why I asked:
From Umarex -"After every 1000 shots, apply two drops of RWS Chamber Lube down in the compression chamber port. "
Pyramid Air Gun Report - "On average, a single drop of silicone chamber oil every 1,500 shots or once a year is about all they require. You can double that time for RWS Diana guns.The oil goes down the transfer port, the same as for guns with leather seals."
RWS Compression Chamber Lube Instructions - "Though requiring minimal lubrication, the piston seal and chamber should be lubricated once every several thousand rounds. One or two drops of RWS Compression Chamber lube applied through the compression chamber port will quickly evaporate and coat the chamber with a fine film of clear Moly. After the lubrication is applied, ten to twenty rounds of ammunition should be fired from the gun to ensure the lubrication has evenly coated the compression chamber. "
Granted it doesn't seem to be a lot. One or two drops, but it sends a mixed message. I read somewhere that it was a high flash point silicone oil, but The RWS statement seems to make it appear like some sort of clear moly. I can see how they might have done it with the old leather seals, but not the newer synthetic ones. Then again, one or two drops might not hurt it and a bottle for $7 could last forever at a manufacturing cost of what 10 cents?
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I use one drop of Crosman chamber lube every 2K shots and let it stand overnight on my Springers. This kept my springers shooting like day one.
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CDT is probably right, he knows his stuff about airguns. When I purchased my Diana 34 I also purchased the RWS cleaning kit which included the Chamber Oil and Spring Oil because I was a Newbe. I still don't know much. After about one year of use the 34 was honking like crazy when cocking, so I read the instructions and used two drops of the Chamber Lube in the compression chamber and a couple drops of Spring Oil on the spring. After a few shot cycles it stopped honking and the POI returned to where it was sighted in for so I guess I didn't mess up too much. I should get it lubed and tuned by one the experts here but I've been too cheap. The 34 is a one ragged holer if I do my part but I know it would be a lot smoother if it had a lube and tune.
Charlie,
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I think it all depends on what type of shooter you are. If you are the type to shoot a springer every once in a while,...Say once or twice a week if that much,...after a few dozen tins,...I don't see where it would hurt. This on the storage/piston seal preservative premise. But if you're like alot of us that shoot every day,..I wouldn't bother. Bob's absolutly correct, a rifle will self lube itself,...especially a tuned weapon. By the time I'd ever need the use of a piston oil/lube,...I've shot the weapon to the point that the spring has weakenned and needs replaced. At this point,..some say it's best to reseal the piston along with a spring swap out. Pesonally,...spring lubes are a "gimic" as far as I see it. But if you do decide to apply any comp. chamber lube to you rifle,..I'd be very cautious,..and use very sparingly. Dieselling is ok to an extent,...but detonation is a one way ticket to the world of burnt piston seals andsnapped springs. Best of luck, tjk
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CDT is Absolutely Correct.. NO OIL OF ANY KIND IN THE COMPRESSION CHAMBER..
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O well.... I surpose I should shelve the idea for a dieseil injection system....LOL
Pete
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Well, depends upon the springer. You guys are mostly talking about synthetic seal, modern guns. Leather seals do require oiling every so often to maintain their flexibility. Also, you don't want to cross-hatch the cylinder wall since they like things nice and slick. So, a tiny bit of oil there is recommended by many old gun shooters. Spring oil predates "tar" lubes (which I think were introduced in the late 60's.) However, gobs of oil are not recommended. You will get the dieseling. Just a smidge allows (in leather seal guns) a fine migration of vapor ahead of the seal. I believe it was the Cardews who explained that this provided a bit of combustion to aid the power output. The current magnum class guns should not need this and may actually produce too much of a combustible mixture.
As to RWS chamber lube, Marcello, over on the Dianawerke and an expert on the 54, recommends a few drops every so often in the transfer port.
BTW, the US Navy used to pay exhorbitant prices for silicone oil used in high pressure applications due to its HIGH flashpoint. Probably takes more than an air gun can produce to diesel that stuff, which is about perfect for leather seals.
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Well, depends upon the springer. You guys are mostly talking about synthetic seal, modern guns. Leather seals do require oiling every so often to maintain their flexibility. Also, you don't want to cross-hatch the cylinder wall since they like things nice and slick. So, a tiny bit of oil there is recommended by many old gun shooters. Spring oil predates "tar" lubes (which I think were introduced in the late 60's.) However, gobs of oil are not recommended. You will get the dieseling. Just a smidge allows (in leather seal guns) a fine migration of vapor ahead of the seal. I believe it was the Cardews who explained that this provided a bit of combustion to aid the power output. The current magnum class guns should not need this and may actually produce too much of a combustible mixture.
As to RWS chamber lube, Hector, over on the Dianawerke and an expert on the 54, recommends a few drops every so often in the transfer port.
BTW, the US Navy used to pay exhorbitant prices for silicone oil used in high pressure applications due to its HIGH flashpoint. Probably takes more than an air gun can produce to diesel that stuff, which is about perfect for leather seals.
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I USE 2 DROPS OF RWS CHAMBER OIL AFTER 1000 SHOOTS
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Charlie I just was going through the instructions that came with my new tuned b26 and saw that they also recomended 2 drops of lube to be put in the chamber after so many rounds! Why do they tell you this when it can damage your seal? Maybe they need to sell more seals....?
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All I can figure is that it gets so hot in the chamber that it vaporizes the two drops of oil, and
it gives the chamber walls a microscopic coating to smooth it out.
But still, that small bottle has to last decades at two drops every 1-2000 shots.
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Needs to be chamber oil. Otherwise, you will get dieseling. You have to remember, these instructions are for guns that will never be lube tuned the modern way.
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That's a good question. One thing for sure...they can sell you something that cost them almost nothing at an extremely high margin of profit. There are several manufactures that used to suggest chamber oils but no longer suggest it because they learned that it did more harm than good.
By the way, not only is it hard on seals but even harder on springs (and scopes) when detonation occurs. It also causes inaccuracy because of the inconsistent velocity that is created. They don't tell you that either. It also causes oil contamination in the barrel requiring cleaning more often and then the need to season the barrel. That too can cause inconsistency and inaccuracy. They don't tell you that either. And it goes on.
Another point to be made is that several of the manufactures will get the guns back for a "tune" because "it shoot like it used to". Something along the lines of pre-determined return business. So....they get you on both ends. You buy the juice and use it and then you pay for the repair for using it.
I have guns out there that I've tuned, many of them years ago with tens of thousands of pellets out the chute and they never need to have any lube stuffed into the compression chamber. But.... it's your gun and you can of course put anything you want in it.
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I still got my Crosman silicone chamber oil I bought 2 yrs ago that I use on 3 of my springers. I shot them probably 1K/month and 1 drop every other month or 4 tins of 500 will give me 5 more yrs on this tube. I even ordered seals and springs and have yet to use it. Less is better than over in lubes..it's like an apply a day keeps the doctor away.
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My nitro NPSS says to use 1 drop of chamber oil every 200 shots. Are gas springers different since there is no oil or tar on a sring? So far I have 300 shots through and I have not put any in. Should I? I hate not to follow unstructions, but.....
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If your Nitro piston is properly lubed, you shouldn't need anything in the spring chamber. Chamber oil goes in through the transfer port so that it sits ahead of the seal. No oil should go into the spring area, be it wound wire or gas piston.
I have been searching around for the composition of spring oil and was amazed at how many sites are still promoting it. Of course, many of these are blogs hosted by retailers who just happen to sell the stuff. And it seems more than a few are simply repeating the information given by one or two sites. It will be interesting to see the financial connections between the blogs and retailers, as revealed by the new legislation that is due to come out shortly. Some of these bloggers, such as PA's, should know better than to still refer owners to this old stuff.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/snake-oil-cables.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/?action=view¤t=snake-oil-cables.jpg)
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/russ_bottle.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/?action=view¤t=russ_bottle.jpg)
I think I've discovered their inspiration:
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/barnum.jpg) (http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e20/RedFeather2/?action=view¤t=barnum.jpg)
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That was my question I guess. If I am understanding you RedFeather, It's Ok to put some compression chamber oil in the transfer port where the air goes from the compression cylinder to the barrel? Thats what the barrel says. I wouldn't have a way to get it on the other side of the piston anyway. Am I right?
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I'm a newbie so please set me straight if I am wrong, but I am thinking for the gas springers oil OK in the compression chamber, but not OK in the piston chamber - two different chambers divided by the piston right?
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Chamber oil is meant to be put in through the transfer port - the hole where the air comes out of the compression tube or body or whatever you want to call it which houses the piston and spring. Anything behind that point (from there to the butt) don't oil. Go by YOUR gun's directions. Anyone else, feel free to chime in.
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I dont know much about airguns, but if two of the best tuners in the business,charliedatuna and gene sc say not to put oil in the chamber I will certainly take their advise.
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I need to make a correction to my earlier post on this thread. I stated "spring lubes are a gimic". What I should have said was that compresion lubricants are a gimic. Sorry for the typographical error, and hope this didn't add any confusion to the newer air gun enthusiasts out there. These lubes are best left to squeeky door hinges and other house hold uses,...just keep them away from your rifles!!!! tjk