GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : taxonomy June 13, 2006, 04:12:00 PM
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I have been wondering about quality control (QC) in airguns for some time. There seems to be a lot of pretty poor fit and finish in air rifles. I have an RWS 48 with amazing barrel droop. I'd given up shooting my Gamo 220 until I sent it to Charlie. Given modern production machinery it seems making high quality airguns would be simple. There are so few moving parts and many of them are really under no stress at all. I wonder why manufactures never really stepped up to the plate on this.
I think of bicycle parts and the aweful beating I ask them to take. Day in and out, rain and shine, ridden hard and put away wet and still they function flawlessly. I realize that I spend more on a bike but there are hundreds more moving parts and the stresses involved are very high. Moving me up a big hill takes a bit more than 30 foot pounds.
So, why is this. It's a simple device, the basic layout is well worked out. It's not like R&D is killing anyone. Why cant a $300 gun like the RWS be expected to be aligned? Why shouln't a $180 Gamo have a smooth pressure stroke? Why would RWS use brittle springs? I realize airguns are a small market but it would surely seem that you could contract out whatever valves or tubes you need. Most of the stuff inside a gun seems pretty normal, springs, stamped steel parts. What gives.
Even with all this I think in terms of fun and useability they are a good value.
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I agree, as I have been involved in the bicycle industry for years. I worked in the industry for quite a while, have been a cyclist for over 20 years.
The guns that I have found to be top quality out of the box are the Theoben, Webley and Beeman. The Theoben are probably the best of these, but also the most expensive. You get what you pay for. It is like buying Dura Ace.
Tim
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There's proably as many moving parts in a dura ace rear derailure as there are in a Thoben and it dosent cost nearly as much. I've also recently bought a Tiagra bike. It works perfectly. The thing is, except airguns, I've come to expect vry high levels of fit and finish even in most entery level products. Guns however are wierd. People just expect to have to monkey around with them like it was normal to do that. I'd never expect to have to take apart the sealed parts of a shifter to get it to work right.
You can buy an entery level SLR film camera for a coupe hundred bucks. You just expect the apature to open and close in 1/200 of a second, every time for years and adjust up and down flawlessly, forever. It's mechanical. It works perfect.
A $500 push lawnmower has hundreds of stressed moving parts. The valves will open and close more in the first hour of use than any airgun will ever cycle and the parts are much under more stress. Plus, we expect the lawnmower to work in an incredibly dirty enviroment filled with chopped dirt and grass. Many work for years with little maintance.
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I couldn't agree more!! I posted similar "comments" on gamo forum and
was verbaly "spanked" for my effort.
whe I spend $325 for the gamo stutzen and have to "rebuild" to make
useable,,,well I just won't buy more gamo.
thats my rant for today, thanks
harry
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On R&D... what gets me is that manufacturers dont have to have much of a R&D department to begin with. How much of the knowledge shared on these forums could be considered R&D? ...a good bit. All a manufacturer would have to do would be to read the forums and they would see the areas that thier products are lacking in.
I know that the Crosman forum has a fellow who works for Crosman that stops in from time to time and I think thats great. How awesome would it be for a Gamo representative to stop by the forums and move complaints/concerns/kudos up the chain.
As far as the RWS droop, I have read that they are drooped that way on purpose as a sort of sighting in at approximately 40 yards...I cannot recall where I read that now though.
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The RWS shoots low at any range. It's totally out of whack. Even the iron sights shoot way to the right. It's not like this is rocket science. The tolerances involved here are way within the range of even the most basic "precision" machining. You'd think if they could ge the chamber right they could align the barrel. Bla bla bla made in Germany.
By R&D I mean new developments. Airguns are pretty mature IMHO. Right now it would seem to me that they are just adding or removing features to meet market demand. Nobody is inventing the choke barrle or the trigger sear. They are just deciding if a combination of features will find a market. It's not like cars, for example, where people are making real improvements to valve trains live variable timing.
With a PCP for example, product managers just decide if they want vairiable power and if so source the appropriate valve. That's not R&D that's market research. With a well worn path to market like that I have no idea why I should have to stone my sear, or have Charlie do it for that matter, to get the trigger to function smoothly.
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Bear (sp) with me as I'm not used to this format.
I think the bicycle analogy is a really good one. I've had a couple of semi-mountain bikes since 1985. One of them is still stock & the other one was only modded because I knew a guy that owned a bike shop. They both work just fine.
Conversly, I've had a HW50s since 1982 that I've spent more than the purchase price on since buying it. Now I'm not complaining about the rifle, and I'll freely admit that some of that cost was for a tune, but the rifle wasn't working when I sent it in, & that was the second time. It was a good rifle when I bought it, & a great rifle when I had it tuned, but I'll bet if you talked to the tuner, he would tell you that there are things the factory could have done different/better.
Mike
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I just commented on what I read... I have 3 RWS guns and none have demonstrated what you described. Dont get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you. I would think that if I shell out $500 for an airgun, it should just about shoot itself.
With the airgun forums, you have both R&D AND Market Research available. There are new things cropping up all over on the forums, but sadly the manufactures dont seem to take notice. Case in point, I dont know who it was off the top of my head, but I saw where one talented machinist created a 5 shot multi-shot breech for a Crosman 22/13xx series pistol. You'd think that Crosman would eat that up because I know that we as consumers would. Lots of folks are replacing hammer springs and hammer weights in PCP's to regulate power in some form or another.
In any case, I hear ya screamin.... but at the same time, part of the joy or love/hate relationship for me is to tinker. I think thats why some of the B-3 and B-4 series Chinese guns are so popular. Folks enjoy tweaking them to the max. Thing is a B-3 or B-4 can be had for under $40...
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Sure, the BAM/TF guns are fine for this. For less than $100 I can see it. For something to fiddle with it's fine. The QB7X guns are more or less kits from what I can understand and I do think that that's a big part of the allure.
But as far as other "adult" airguns go one of the things about being an adult is lack of time. I barely have time to shoot let alone ship guns in and out or tinker with them. Also bench space is precious so with the gun in peices for over a week at a time it get's kind hard when I have to repair the water heater or assemble gutters. It gets pushed away. Springs are lost.
Most of the market seems to be at a "good enough" level. People don't seem to demand that much innovation aside from crazy nut that spend time on airgun forums. I've also noticed in firearms in general a pretty high tolerance for shoddyness. Maybe there's some huge overhead cost I am missing.
It would be fun to tinker if I had the time but for me play tinker time goes into bikes. I also just don't have time to develop the feel for the inside of an airgun. Learning means making mistakes. I don't have time to make them/
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novitt - 2006-06-13 9:12 PM
I have been wondering about quality control (QC) in airguns for some time.
I've been wondering about it since the early 80's when I first got into adult airguns.
It's something lacking in all of the brands, and I'm including the 3 mentioned on this thread as being top-range: Theoben, Webley, and Beeman/HW. I've had issues with all of them.
Theoben Crusader with a leaking gas strut......
Webely Omega with premature spring failure.....
Beeman R-1 with a piston seal that was cut on assembly at the HW factory....
AA S-200 with a bolt-knob failure.......
Benjamin 397 with a defective valve from new.......
Benjamin Legacy with too many issues to list.......
This sort of stuff shouldn't "go with the territory" but, alas, it seems to. I can only go back about 25 years in this hobby, but it seems to me as though it went with the territory back then, too.
-JP
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Although I do agree that airgun tolerances and build quality are lacking in most of the guns on the market, I would be willing to bet that there are far more mountain bikes, mowers, etc., sold than airguns. This is a very small industry with small profit, small sales, and small R&D. If it was as lucrative and as big as say, the bike industry, I suspect you would see some pretty big names getting involved.
The fact is that this isn't the case and the only reason that this market continues to exist is because of those people who love the sport. Just look at the tuners that are out there. How many of them tune airguns as their sole income? None. How many live in big houses bought by the tuning they have done? None. Like anything or anyone else associated with this hobby, you don't do it to get rich, you do it for the love of the sport.
Anyhow, that is my take on the whole thing. Just another .02
Russ
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Your right, there were at least a half dozen bike shops in town in '85, there were NO airgun shops. Maybe the odd example in a gun shop, but that's all.
Of course you can't ride an airgun to the store heehee.
Mike
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I would hate to be the one to try LOL!
Russ S.
nmmike - 2006-06-14 9:35 PM
Of course you can't ride an airgun to the store heehee.
Mike
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Good day;
Since every experience is different, I will share mine. Ownership and use of these overlap or are simultaneous.
1 - First - rifle Winchester 800X (Brazilian). This rifle broke spring after (no kidding) somewhere around 20,000 rounds. Very satisfied.
2 - Second - rifle RWS 48 which broke spring within 3,000 shots and after Tuna, broke again after similar count. I have abandoned this rifle.
3 - Third - rifle Crosman CH2000. After (easy) 6,000 rounds, replaced valve once (D.I.Y. $8.00). Very satisfied.
4 - Fourth and Fifth Rifles Crosman 1077 modified for bulk CO2 - still ticking after about 3,000 rounds each. Very satisfied.
5 - Sixth - handgun Benjamin EB17 - month old - 500 rounds - powerful.
6 - Seventh - rifle - Gamo 850 carbine (for field plinking use). - Too new, only about 600 rounds so far. Smooth action, noisy delivery.
Generally, my experience with the (more expensive) RWS soured me on moderately expensive guns. I figure, because I shoot excessively, why spend allot on a piece that will (historically) fail in the same timeframe as a much less costly one?
I have no faith that spending in excess of $300 (let alone $600) will yield me a more dependable piece for the use I expect.
Shucks, I can shoot lesser costly guns (with equal accuracy and fun) for equal lengths of time and throw them out when done.
Basically, I am talking about having cost effective fun, not building a gun trophy case.
Regards;
Mike
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Hmmm..to take your bike analogy,the guns you mentioned are like a huffy or other dept store bike.not usualy trouble free for thousands of miles.(in fact,I've never owned a bike that didn't need some mantainance every few hundred miles,what are you buying!!?) There's about 1000 times more bikes sold in a year than airguns, think what that does to the R&D budgets of the makers.. visble droop will occur with only a couple thousands of extra metal in the breech,and since there are at least 4 places tolerances can stack up to make that happen,(cylinder face,breech face,barrel block hole location and cylinder fork location) it's near imposible to prevent droop on production breakbarrels. Hand fitting will fix it, but you wont find tht on a $300 gun.
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How many parts of that dura ace are unique to that model? 2? How many in a production run? 100,000? Theoben may sell 500 of a model in a year,likely less.Hand assembled and hand finished. Paintball markers have a lot more tech than airguns,mostly because there is a much bigger market,like bikes,cameras,etc.That's realy what it comes down to,the number of units sold in a year.The more you sell, the more you can invest in automatic tooling to make more parts cheaper.
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What I was saying was that indicidual components seem to be a lot better designed and fitted. Cables and brake pads and the like are a seperate issue. Still, even on my bikes that get ridden daily year round as commuters they require remarkable little maintinace. There's so few moving parts in an airgun. I don't have to take apart a shifter and file individual components to make them work. Paul's bicycle components made low production high dollar (maybe $200 for a derailure) components CNC that were tight, reliable and low volume and had as many moving parts as any airgun.
In an age with CNC machining even small operations have access to really good machining compared to even 25 years ago. Detriot is not building passable cars. Do you remember the "mirical mile" when you car flipped the odometer? That's so common now. I think nothing of buying a car with 70K on it.
Airguns remind me of motorcycles in say 1970. You had the Hondas that were Japanese and were reliable if not great performers (like Gamos or whatever) and then you had Ducati and MV, BMW. ( Expensive if tempermental. It's not a great analogy becuse I think basic guns, Daisy Gamo et al could and should be better performers out of the box.) The European bikes were hand fitted, which basically meant the machining off the line was lousy and had to be corrected. Now all motorcycles pretty much are perfect off the line. They come tight and stay tight.
In a world where I have 10 CNC shops within 50 miles of me something isn't adding up in my mind about all of this. Maybe it's like detriot in 1991 where everyone has their old sloppy worn out machinery and it's all paid for on the floor of the shop and the lathes or whatever are all loose and flopping around run by old staff worrying more about pensions than quality control. As long and the old machines will pop out salable guns and nobody else comes into the market with new machines, like Datsun did, everyone just goes on their ciggarette brake and the consumer knows no better.
Hand fitting is an anacronism.
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I was a metal fabricator for decades,things have changed a lot.However,even with cnc 3d mills,there are big setup costs,and often a lot of scrapped parts.I think your point about old machinery is part of it,but mostly its a lack of money.I suspect most of the old makers see the writing on the wall,a shrinking,not expanding market.In combination with the global shortsightedness of corporations (this years bootom line) I don't think there's any money available for inovation.(at least in the under $1000 airguns)
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OK, I take your point. I do agree that a lot of it is bottom line and quarterly profits. I am not a machinist. I am a librarian.
It will be interesting to see what happens with the Chinese and how that effects the market. The BAM 50/51 and the QB guns are still really new but there's something there. I think that as these companies mature were going to see movement as they take market share. Made in Japan used to be an ephitete now it's a mark of quality. I think the chinese are going the same route. They are already doing things diffrently in a way that will have to force people to react.
It's been a sleepy market for a long time. Triumph and BSA were once the peak of the motorcycle markey, hand fitted in England, just like Theoben et al. They were expensive, European and top performers. People thought the market was mature or shrinking. Handa came along first with teh cheap little cubs that worked like a top and didn't leak oil and weren't hand fitted and were alot cheaper. The CB750 sealed the deal.
Suddenly with a product that "normal" people could own reliably the markey became huge. There are thousands of gun nuts in America and elsewhere. Airguns have some real advantages in a world of sprawl, dissapearning paces to shoot and an increasingly regulated market. I think a lot of the future of firearms in genral could rest on airguns if things play out like I think they will. Just like the good product (honda CB750) and other circumsances like the oil embargo made motorcycles a big deal it could happen with airguns.
Your right, with present thinking expensive and or sloppy guns the market will shrink. Make reliable, accurate guns and the whole thing changes. Lot's of guys at my club have bought and sold mid market ($400) guns becuse they didn't shoot well broke or whatever. Something like a good PCP that's in line with somethng like an Anchutz target rifle would be idea. Something that will tack drive match pellets as well as a target gun will shoot $35 a brick target ammo.
Also, I think field target has huge potential. If it didn't cost $1500 to try it out it's got just about everything. Now at a club you have to shoot powder burners at a range. Pretty boring. FT could be big.
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I'm no machinist,either,I've just watched CNC tooling of various types transform metalwork in this country. CNC machines are VERY expensive,so those who own them will make parts very cheap per unit,just to keep the machines working.However,the CAD design work ,programing,testing,redesign,etc,can get very expensive on short run(under 1000) parts. The big co's own thier machines,realy little guys can buy time from specialists,but in the middle,what you pay the CNC shop takes potential profit and gives it to to the cnc shop.I suspect the margins are narrow in airguns.
I think your streetbike analogy is pretty good,brit sportscars another. Many old time makers went under,many more were borderline during the transition to modern bikes. Some types are nearly extinct,because there isn't the market to support new models(500cc kickstart singles,for instance) Modern sportbikes are very good,but over the top IMO,not realy offering much to the average Joe they couldn't get from a vintage ducati (except lack of oil leaks and reliable electrics) How often can you sanely use 150 hp in a 350 lb streetbike?
Another point I think is worth thinking about.Springers are mature tech,and have been pushed about as far as is reasonable,or maybe past that. The Porshce flat four is a good analogy. Based distantly on a 45 hp VW engine,it was made to work,at increasing HP output,for 40+ years.Porsche finaly gave up and went to a watercooled 6.The lotus 4 is another example, replaced with an 8 when lotus finally had money (bought by ford(?) I'm hoping the hi end PCP tech will trickle down to low end guns,but I'm not holding my breath.
The chinese pcps are remarkably good in looks and perfomance,QC still needs work.I think the chinese guns are already haveing an influence,the low end BSA's seem to be a responce to the B-50's.I wonder how much the cheapening trend was to blame for Webly going under?The chinese may very well dominate the market in the next decade,they certainly are a huge presence in the bicycle market.
I'd love to see airguns become even as mainsteam as sportbikes(still not a big market,relative to PC's,for instance),but with worldwide attempts to outlaw personal firearms(UN driven),I don't think it's going to happen.Historically,firearms get registered,then outlawed,then airguns get restricted,then emasculated,then outlawed.
You can have a lot of fun with a $500 ft setup,if you dont plan on competeing nationaly. I think the idea that you need to put serious money into a FT gun is hurting the sport a lot. Remember FT is the "fringe of the fringe" a small part of a very small sport,relative to almost any other hobby I can think of.My local bookstore caries 3 different magazines devoted to paintball, and 2 aimed at scale RC model boats,NONE for airgunners...
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I bought a rws 45 in the mid 80's. had I know I would have to bend the barrel to make it shoot I would have purchased some thing else. It still works, spring is weak. I realise they were trying to optimise it for iron sights but they screwed up shooting with a scope doing that. manufacturers of high power rifles, .22's non that I ever heard of do you have to bend a barrel straight out of the box to make it shoot. every now and then I get tempted to look at another springer but will probably never do it again. John