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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : clip March 31, 2010, 10:42:53 AM
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I mounted a Hawke MapPro 4-16x50 on my TX200 and tried to zero it in today. I couldn't get it to adjust high enough to print at the POA at 10 meters. It stops about 3 inches low and will go no further. It ran out of "UP" clicks before it got to where it should be. I'm using a Leapers one piece mount, by the way. It reminds me of the way some scopes do on an RWS rifle but I hardly think this is a case of barrel droop. This is the first Hawke I've had that did this. I've emailed the Hawke people but haven't heard anything from 'em yet. Has anyone had this problem with Hawkes before? What can you tell me about their warranty work? Is it reliable?
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I had a small problem with getting the wrong scope. They not only emailed me they called me and personally handled the problem, they provided me with great customer service. I think you will have a good outcome, other than that i have a Hawke mounted on a b28 and have had no problems.
peace,
rashid
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Larry, did you try turning the mount around?
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Gene...No, I have not tried that. I've used these mounts before and always put 'em on the gun in the same manner, that is, facing the same way. Thanks for the idea, it's certainly worth a try. I'll let y'all know the results.
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If it's the scope, what rashid said- they have been one of the most responsive suppliers I have ever dealt with. If you believe it's a Hawke problem, they are good for it. Very good company.
The only complaint I have ever had about them is the stiffness of the AO adjustment. I think they were planning to address that in future designs, but you really have to torque the AirMax series to move the AO. My Eclipse SF certainly doesn't have any trouble at all, just the ones on the end of the scope.
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Gene...I have just reversed the mount on the rifle and re-set the scope..... however I haven't fired it yet to see if the POI has changed. I'm a little concerned that by turning the mount around I have now lost the stop-pin's ability to keep the scope from shifting back under recoil. That pin won't engage the arresting holes in the guns' breach because the ring with the pin now sits too far forward. I don't believe this particular gun is rated as a heavy recoil rifle, but over time, don't you think the whole scope mount will slip backward? I guess I'll worry about that when I see how the scope does upon test-firing.
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Larry, if you get the same results with the mount turnned around, put it back to where you started with and try shimming the scope a bit. Just a suggestion, tjk
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Laryy, it was just to see if it was the mount and not the scope..:) You will need the stop pin mount lock..:) Those mounts are cheap enough, and you could just buy another one. I had one here aobut 6 or 8 months ago that did the same thing to me after mounting a new scope.
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Larry,
Are there two layers of tape in the bottom of the scope mount's rear ring ???
Some mounts have two layers in the bottom of the rear ring to help with barrel droup. If so, your gun doesn't need it.
Or. if there is no extra layer of tape, you can compensate by adding a layer of the sticky fabric electricians tape (aka friction tape ) to the bottom of the front ring to bring the POI down. You can get the friction tape anywhere electrical supplies are sold.
Paul
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Right, Gene... I figured that I would need the pin. Funny thing, I had just sent the above email out when I received a note from Mike Kurtz at Hawke advising me to return the scope to him and he'd see what was wrong. So it appears all this writing about mounts and stop-pins was for naught...LOL. All joking aside, I really appreaciate the advice you and everyone here gave me. Thank you all very much!
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Just goes to show that the Hawk folks care..:) I like the Hawk scopes because they are rugged and do out weight the guns I put them on...:) Guess I have been pretty lucky with them so far. I think I am up to aobut 8 Hawk scopes now..:) So far they have fit the bill for what I have needed them for.
Good luck Larry and please let us know what the end result was.
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I returned this scope to the Hawke folks and just got it back. The included letter from Mike Kutrz explained that the scope checked out OK but was at the limit of the elevation travel. That much I knew. He said I needed an adjustable mount with "this rifle to compensate for barrel droop". I wasn't aware that the TX200 had a barrel droop. Is it possible for a fixed barrel rifle to have a droop problem? This 4-16X50 is mounted on a new Leapers one-piece high mount like all my other rifles..I'm not sure if I should order another mount in case the one I'm using is defective or try someting else. I've read that a shim can help with such an adjustment problem but I'm not sure what to use as a shim . Would'nt it go under the scope tube on the REAR ring to RAISE the POI ? As you may know, these have a piece of tape in the rings to prevent the scope from shifting. Should that be removed, another added on top of that one or just left alone? If that's correct, I'd rather try that. I'll buy another mount as a last resort. Advice anyone? Thanks, folks.
Larry
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(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-smile.gif)Larry, What does the Hawke Rep mean by, its ok but at the limit of the elevation adjustment travel? The adjustment should be at the mid point of the elevation knob, this way you have adjustment up or down. I think the scope is not operating correctly if it checks out OK at the limit of the elevation adjustment travel. IMHO the TX200 does not have barrel droop. Check with a four foot level .......Bill(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif)
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Larry, it is common place that some scopes will not give you enough travel to sight your gun in. I have had the same issue myself several times. The easiest and cheapest fix is just put a strip of 35mm film negagtive under scope on rear mount. You can go up to 3 but usually 1 to 2 will be fine. Do not exceed three strips or you may bend the tube.
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Thanks for the replies, guys.
BILL...Sorry I was not very specific. I couldn't adjust the scope to print high enough when trying to zero it in. I had reached the limit of the "up" clicks for elevation adjustment and it still was printing too low on the target.. According to the factory, the scope was OK ( no malfuntions ) except the elevation adjustment was at its highest adjustment. The factory rep...Mike Kurtz..goes on to say that I (meaning me ) had adjusted the scope to 170 clicks up and that it would go no further. At that point its POI was still some 2 to 3 inches low at 10 meters. He reset the scope back to optical center and told me the scope now checks out perfectly for Parallax, Click Adjustment and Tracking then sent it back to me. He says the problem has to be in the mount, base or rings and I need an adjustable mount to compensate for barrel droop. Those are HIS words. When I sent the scope back, I told him what rifle it was on. I know the TX200 has no droop. I remounted it and it still fires a POI that's still low after over 70 "up" clicks. My point of aim was the bullseye and I was hitting 4-5 inches low. After the "up clicks", the pellet would only rise 1 to 2 inches. I stopped trying at that point and ask the forum for scope shimming tips. I wish I were computer-smart enough to scan his entire letter and print it here for you to read.
GENE...Thanks for those points about the 35MM film. I remembered that it was a film negitive, but didn't remember how many I could use. The way I see my options now, I try the film negitive and if that won't do the job...I need to try another mount.
STAY TUNED!
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In order to avoid the droop issues (or barrel bends or anything else) I came up with what I think is the ultimate solution to scope mounting, and it just so happens the hawke mounts are the solution. I use a HM17021 or HM17021s which converts the dovetail to Weaver, but has a vertical adjust. To that I add low Weaver mounts, so the whole acts like a one-piece, even though it is a pair of Weaver rings. You can get a LOT of vertical adjustment, and I've used that setup to solve any vertical issues I've had -- keeping full-range of motion with the turrets so you can use them for what they were intended. The whole thing is about $40, so it is less than the Hawke 1-piece adjustable, and I think it is actually more robust. The same thing made by B-square is at least twice the price...
If you have trouble locating these, I can get them for you as I have a dealer relationship with Hawke. I think they are a great company!
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Rich, I do not quite understand. Where are you adjusting the vertical movement. I am looking at the picture on Hawks site and do not see any up and down adjustment.
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You can't really see it in the shot they have of the 17021 or 17021s, but the whole center piece on these mounts can move up and down and can be regulated with a screw that comes down from the top. I really want to take some pictures of it to have on my web site, so I should do that for you here...I'll do it tomorrow. It is actually a pretty neat design, and the screws are HEAVY DUTY so everything stays right where you put it. There's a hinge on the right of the 17021 and the left of the 17021s in those pictures that you can barely see. Put the hinge in the front, and screw in the back, and you've got plenty of compensation. These also have a reversible pin that make them work well with raised RWS rails... Hard to believe these go for as little as they do. I like em a ton!
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I used a 1 pc. 11mm - Weaver Riser - (BKL 568) adaptor and low weave low mounts on my NPSS and a Hawk 50 mil objective and front of scope sits just over 3/8" above action. A bit to high for my liking. Do you know if your setupwould beany lower?
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Gene: I'm using a Leapers one-piece high mount. The tube is about an inch above the action with the objective bell approximatly 1/8 inch above the loading port of the TX200.
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Clip, the one-piece isn't adjustable vertically, is it?
Gene, the B-square on this page is the same thing as the Hawke -- but the Hawke is way less: http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/B_Square_17021_11mm_to_Weaver_Adapter_Adjustable/601
I'll take some pictures so you can get an idea of the clearance.
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Negitive, Richard. It's just a one piece mount with non-adjustable rings.
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Thanks John and Larry for you input. Will wait for more info..
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clip
I had the same problem with the Leapers high mount and a 4x16x40mm scope shooting at 15 meters. the center line of the scope and the bore of the rifle is app. 1 7/8" and app. 1/4" gap between the action and the front of the scope. I used a piece of plastic milk gallon as a shim under the rear scope mount. I was then shooting high and could adjust the scope down. At 10 meters I don't know if you can adjust it to hit POA because the scope is mounted so high above the action. I hope this helps you, I have gotten a great deal of information from this site.
Dennis
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Dennis: I'll give the milk carton a try. I can't seem to find a section of 35MM film negitive around here. Thanks for the idea.
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It appears that my scope problem has been resolved. I could not find any 35MM film negitave anywhere around the house so I used Dennis's idea about milk carton plastic. I cut a couple of strips from a yogurt container that the wife just finished. It did take two strips before the scope zeroed. It's now hitting the POI where it's supposed to. Thanks to all you fellas for chiming in with a solution...especially to Gene for reminding me of shimming and to Dennis for the milk carton idea. I knew I'd find an answer here.
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This just answered my question about shimming and prevented a duplicate strand. While shooting yesterday I realized I only have 15 clicks of down left. Will set it back to center then shim the front I beleive. But just to make sure I have this right.
If you hit low shim the BACK to get it hitting higher.
If you shoot high shim th FRONT to bring it down.
Makes sense. Thanks for all the info all.
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At 25 how did it do? I have only seen 50+ TX200's and have never seen droop, return the rifle or the scope. or find someone who wants a rare TX WITH droop.
Shimming isnt all that great an idea (and sure I have done it myself), might be a rather poor idea on a springer, time will tell. No better way to bend a scope tube than shim it then really crank down the screws so it doesnt move on the slipperu surface the shim will create. I sure hope it all works out nice for you for many years to come but I have a funny feeling you may end up revisiting this scope issue, please do let us know how things are in a few thousand shots.
John
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Based on your explanations. I would have to say its the gun not the scope. I always try to mount my scopes so that the (up down left right) is about centered to where I am shooting this is done via the mount system mild shimming if need be. In your case I believe you have gun with droop and I would agree with John/spysir not a good Idea if overcoming a severe droop condition... due to possible damaging scope.
I would likely try an RWS droop mount like this http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=348187 or possible even modify a utg n-460 base mount from pyramidair with a dremmel? anyway just some ideas. The TX200 is a great AG, lets know how it goes. Tony.
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Here are some pictures of the mount I suggested. I've got a shot here of a 40mm and 50mm objective. The 50mm leaves maybe 1/8th of an inch. The whole setup is $40 or less and it is tremendously flexible. Better than mounts I have bought for $100 and more.
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Thanks Richard. I am ordering a couple sets.. Appreciate your posting the pics.