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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : ray1377 April 20, 2010, 02:23:29 AM
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I tried a Beeman RS2 once before and the best I could do was maybe hit a half dollar at 20 yds.
Which for me is not acceptable.
Having 2 pcp's and a bunch of 1377 pumpers I'm used to getting dime size groups at 40+ yds.
Is there any need in even trying a springer again?
I saw where an RWS 54 AirKing has a built in slide system to absorb some of the recoil.
But man they are pricey.
What about Gamo?
I've heard some swear by them and some swear at them!!! ha ha ha
Maybe I should just stick to PCP's
Thanks Ray
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Being in pcp's and pumpers that can do dime-sized groups at 40+ yards, you may find equaling that with springers to be very frustrating. Not saying it isn't do-able, just that it's not as easy. Took me the better part of the past year to get past the frustration that my springers can only do at 25-30 yards what I take for granted from some of my rimfires and powder burners at 100 yards.
If you go with a Gamo you'll need to replace the trigger and I'd only consider one with the metal trigger. The newer plastic triggers are not replaceable with a Tuna trigger.
Paul.
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Check into the B26's in ether cal buddy. Great for target or hunting. Ed
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What about the new crosman and benjamin nitro piston guns?
I've heard that they don't have the torque of the spring guns.
Ray
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I came to the same decision. I'm a 22 rimfire benchrest shooter and wanted to do some shooting in my backyard in between going to the range. I believe that the difference in spending $300 and $500 is dramatic. Take a look at the Air Arms TX200 series. I wound up with a ProSport, but am convinced that the TX200 would have worked just as well. In both rifles you can save by going with a beech stock as opposed to a walnut. These both have the same power plant/trigger and are both easily maintained by the user without requiring a spring compressor. Fit and finish on mine was outstanding. They are smooth cocker's/shooters with sweet triggers. They are designed for scope mounting and the 11mm grooves are thick and solid. Anyway, after zeroing my scope it was shooting tiny groups and allowing me to get in some practice in my backyard. I also noticed that if these AA TX200/PS rifles show up in the classified they are gone in minutes. I bought mine from a supplier that will allow me to return it within 30 days and only be out the shipping. Mine is not going anywhere! Have fun with your search! Regards
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How about that "Air Venturi Bronco" that P.A. is selling.... supposed to have a good trigger, good open sights, low recoil, and it was designed with the "new" springer shooter in mind..... I know it's a lower powered rifle but to get started in springers it might be just the ticket. I've been thinking of getting one myself as a lower powered back yard plinker. Just figured I'd throw it out there.
I'd steer away from the GAMO line, unless perhaps it's one of the "older" models that can accepts the GRT trigger.
If you weren't interested in the "Bronco" I'd say go with Eds suggestion and get yourself a B-26 from MM. They are great rifles for both target and hunting and just overall really nice guns.... after all,,,, it's an R-9 clone :)
As for the new Trail and NPSS rifles, you are correct, they do not have any of the torque or vibration that the springers have.... I find them much easier to to shoot accurately.
Jeff
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As was mentioned, the PCP and pumpers have essentially no recoil, whereas the spring rifles will have recoil from the mass of the piston and spring moving. So the rifle will inherently be harder to shoot more accurately.
If the RS2 is "twangy" with a fair amount of vibration and twisting recoil, you might consider getting it tuned. That will make it easier to shoot more accurately.
Also do a search on shooting accurately with a spring rifle. There are many posts on how to hold/shoot a spring rifle for more accuracy. All of them boil down to you learning a technique to shoot the spring rifles, and like any new technique, there will be a learning curve.
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Sorry, but I have since sold the Beeman to another member.
And yes, I read "everything" I could find on how to shoot a springer.
I think I tried just about everything.
Don't get me wrong, I could hit with it.
Just not as well as I would have liked.
I could hit coke cans at say 30+ yds.
But I'd rather be able to put the pellet down the opening on the top of the coke can instead of just hitting the side of it.
I may be asking too much from a springer, but I think not from reading some of the posts here.
I watched an episode of American Airgunner last season and they had a guy who shot shillouette targets out to nearly 50 yds with a NPSS Crosman springer and those targets were "TINY".
And he never missed a one of them.
And all his shots were made with him standing up and not resting the rifle on anything.
If I remember correctly, his gun was painted a really nice shade of blue.
The main reason I would even consider springers again is the simplicity of them.
No pump to keep up with, no shot count to have to worry with, just a good rifle and a tin of pellets is all you need.
Thanks
Ray
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Best springer for a new shooter???? I'd skip the big box stuff and either get a clone from Mike Melick,...or just get a Diana 34 and be done with it!!! Tuned, the 34 has a mild shot cycle with minimal recoil for a springer. I'd opt for .22 cal , tjk
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I second the RWS Mod.34 and with the new TO6 trigger it should be better.
Gary
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I really would have thought I would have more people chime in on the new gas piston guns from crosman and benjamin.
Ray
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There r so many to chose from .This addiction begings with one then another so u have an opportunity to chose wisely like a reminton npss ,accureatcy,level of noise is low ,power,its affordable ,lastly many people here will guild you with any problem u might have with it .I,m into clones and i loved them since i got my b26 in a 177 cal i just love them cause they come close to the original and yes if u get it from mike melick at flying dragons u wont be dissapointed as a matter of fact u will be impressed as i was last week with my b40.22 now im hooked and i have rws german ,spanish,american,but to me there is nothing like getting a airrifle that fits my needs and pocket ,so take some time and think about it but i would pick a b26 like someone mentioned up above or the remington ,ray1377 i know u will make the right decision cause u do have some nice shooters and u r experinced ,the rws 54 r nice no recoil but pricey like u said but very accurate i see u like the american made airrifles ,so a remington npss or benji trail xl1100 woul be nice .my 2 cents worth. God Bless Us All ....jorge lopez....
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I am stalking the Remington NPSS at the moment, so I can't give you firsthand experience. Seems to fit your requirement and presumed budget.
On traditional springers, I will say that I have at least3 that are very easy to shoot. They aren't match grade powder burners or PCPs, but the RWS34, the Cometa Fenix, and the B26 are all very shootable (after minimum prep). Maybe because archery prepared me for some attention to hold and follow-through, I just didn't find shooting this category of springer all that challenging. I might add the BSA Lightning to the list, although she's a little more finicky, I don't know....
Some of my other family members are not as well behaved.
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I would have to say a tuned diana 34 in .22 or .177 up to 40yds is really hard to beat and in addition to that I think a Beeman R-9 is a good contender for you:) I also have a 52 and a 54 both will make a 15 shot dime size hole at 35yds but they are heavy and normally I dont carry them off into the forest for a long trek. I am a springer man at heart, I think because of challenge and really have to learn to hold and know the gun, I find that is part of the fun for me .. even tho my PCP are not really as hold sensitive, more aim, shoot,hit :) I guess I just like the idea of a spring AG and pellets:)
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I just watched the video on PA of Paul Capello doing the Remington NPSS test and it was very nice.
Not as powerful as some, but easy to cock, and quiet.
Ray
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Beeman R7.....can't believe it wasn't mentioned.
This should of been my first springer gun. It sets the bar on how guns should be made and shoot.
Who else shoots Beeman's on this forum?
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(Get the blue one......that's the secret......blue is better.......)
Seriously, I don't think you are going to get anyone to recommend a Crosman gas ram, or any other springer, aside from the 34 fans. You've set some serious specs, coming as you have from PCP's. The guns mentioned so far are pretty much sporters. Yes, most are capable of small groups at forty yards but they also require some tuning to get there. You might consider a 34 with the Vortek drop in kit, although it needs some tweaking on top of that (deburr, maybe screw cups, a large pellet assortment, etc). As to the Bronco, I think - no, I know you will be disappointed. The sights, alone, are very basic, too much so for longer range work, and it is low powered. The R9 has a good trigger to start with. I don't know if the 34's incorporating the T06 triggers are on the racks yet. HW is always another option. Lots of guys shoot the 77's in FT, but they aren't cheap.
Let's back up a bit. Who is the new shooter? Obviously, not you. Is it a kid or an adult? If adult, how demanding will they be? It isn't always about tiny groups. Take archery, for instance. There are target bows and field bows. One is much more accurate than the other, but a good field bow, within its element, is just as enjoyable to many archers. Same thing with springers. Guess we need to know more about who will be shooting and the dollar range. If you want to go with a Gamo, consider one of the CFX's, maybe synthetic stocked, that are going for way less than they used to. A good home tune and $30 trigger and you will have an accurate, easy shooting gun out to fifty yards or more. They don't weigh a ton and are fairly easy to cock for the power level. Plus you can hunt with them, if you so choose.
As to the Blog reviews, I take them with a Siberian salt mine. Those boys never met a gun they didn't like. Half of them read like infomercials. Stick with the guys and gals on this and other forums for real world, in-the-field reporting. If someone blows smoke, there's always two or three who will turn on the fans. :emoticon:
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First off what kinda money are you looking to spend? but for a first gun the 34 is a good one!
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If were going to shoot for best groups at 40 yards with a springer, off-hand or off a front rest, then, hands down: Slavia CZ 634 .177, if you can find one. Hammer forged steel barrel. Low-to-medium power springer. Target-style stock. Locking breech.
TX-200 another worth considering. Highly regarded by field trial shooters, but I have never owned or shot one much. Beeman R7, R9 Goldfinger -- honorable mention.
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Somewhere in the $200 to $300 dollar price range.
And believe it or not, the gun "would" be for me.
I know I'm not a "new" shooter, but might as well be if I have to learn how to shoot a springer.
Maybe I should have worded the question different.
Maybe something like, most forgiving springer for around $250.
Like I said, maybe I'm asking too much from something.
I would like to think that I could get good tight groups with a springer given enough practice.
But I would like to start with a springer thats able to get the job done.
I love to hunt squirrels and such, so a magnum high powered springer would be nice, but if its gonna be
a bear to shoot and master, then it sorta seems pointless doesn't it????
I guess I just get all hyped up when I read in the hunting section where Jeff and all the fellows are taking coons, and varmints with their
springers and I want to be able to do the same.
Hope this makes sense.
Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks
Ray
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I like my springers. They are very accurate after you master the artillary hold. I hit a practice golf ball at 65 yards this last weekend with my 350. I have a gamo hunter with nitro piston and grt trigger. It is pinpoint accurate out to 45 yards. I spent about 375 gatting it to where it is and for that money you can get a a very nice already tuned rws rifle with the pg2 kit installed. My rws is the nicest bone stock shooter. Holds almost the same accuracy as my Gamo hunter with more power. If I had it to do over again I would have went with the Already tuned RWS from vortec. Dont get me wrong, I love that hunter but bang for the buck and if your not in the mood to do any upgrades yourself, go with the pretuned. I have attached the link incase you want to see them
http://www.vortekproducts.com/airgun_packages
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Ray,
I think a little bit of what you ask depends on what you have to spend. In ascending order vis-s-vis the expenditure of funds I would reccomend:
1. a B-26
2. a RWS34 or a B-40
3. a Beeman R-9
4. a TX-200 or RWS-54
5. a Theoben Sirocco or SLR-98
Any one of those guns would be easy to start with and could become hard to part with.
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I bought my first air rifle, a Crosman Quest, just 2 years ago. Having nothing to compare it to I didn't realize what a POS it was until I bought my second air rifle, an RWS 34 Panther in .22 caliber. Excellent right out of the box, extraordinary after a good tune. The stock is synthetic so you don't have to worry about getting dings or scratches and makes it a real work horse of an air rifle. The weight is moderate at 7.75 lbs. and so is the cocking effort. The accuracy is incredibly consistent without being very hold sensitive. At twenty yards 1/4 inch groups are fairly common and I recently shot a couple of 1/8 inch groups for the first time. And I don't consider myself to be a particularly good shot (I'm still trying to master my RWS 350 after over a year). Today was the first day of grackle hunting season for me. Five instant kills at distances of 10-25 yards, 2 from my bench rest and 3 off hand (they were up in the trees). It is an excellent rifle for humanely dispatching small game out to at least 30 yards. For under $300 it can be puchased with enough left over for a decent scope and mount.
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Max accuracy will be out of a low or low-medium powered spring rifle. The lower the power the less spring vibration the better the accuracy. Tuning the AR will reduce vibration of a high or medium powered AR, but the same tuning will have even less vibration on a low powered AR. Given that it is your first spring AR, I would recommend a low or at most medium powered AR, the learning curve will be easier for you. I would save the "power shots" for your PCP/CA rifle or your second spring rifle.
As you said, what good is a "magnum" air rifle...it you can't hit your target.
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Well considering that your budget is around $300, I'd save a few more $$$ and go for a tuned springer with a fixed barrel, meaning not a break barrel. I can shoot my 48 all day long holding it the same way that I hold my Rem.788 in .222 or my CZ in .22hornet. I've never had to use the artillery hold for it ever.
Now my R-1 and my Xocet are completely different. I had to find their preference in order for them to shoot accurately. Another good choice would be, as mentioned, an R7. But make sure to have it tuned, otherwise your looking at problems with it down the line.
Whatever you choose, good luck!
Daniel
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daveshoot - 4/20/2010 2:21 PM
I am stalking the Remington NPSS at the moment,
You and me both, although I am considering a used Crosman Nitro in .22.
Sorry for the Hijack!
Daniel
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Have some patience and look at the classifieds. I was lucky enough to find a fully tuned 34 here for under $200. And I also picked up a tuned B40 for less than that. Not typical, but they are out there. Often times, an owner will have a gun tuned (or do a decent do it yourself from a JM kit) and then get to Jonesing for a PCP. Off goes the springer, usually well under what he has in it. FWIW, you will rarely ever recoup the price of a tune unless it's by someone like Paul Watts. (His add value to the gun because he often does a lot of extra custom work.) I see tuned guns, all very good for a first time shooter, all the time on the Yellow and here. Just don't get a hole burning in your pocket and something will turn up.
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Well darn, you just missed an RWS94 Cometa on the yellow classifieds with new uninstalled JM seal and springs for $150. Now, that would have been a contender.
The R7 would be an excellent choice for some of us, but new they are a little spendy for the power with no optics. If a goal is hunting, they are a little light in power output, even though they can do the job with their marvelous behavior and accuracy. They are a true gentleman's air rifle and can show teeth to small game. I have a Hawke 2x7 on ours and it is a very sweet combination.
I think that 2x7 AirMax is overlooked, and more than enough magnification on a low-medium powered25m hunter. Keeps the weight down and adjustments simple.
For a hunter, witha Beemanbudget, I would go to the R9. Hence, the many B26 recommendations, since it is a really good R9 clone at very considerable savings. You could spend thebalance on glass.
Put the RWS94 on your radar. That one was a reasonably good deal. I have two already,and I'm glad that provocation is gone.
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On the RWS 34 Vortek rifles for light hunting. Birds and small pest animals... .177 or .22 Calibre? To be shot in farm fields but also in a small town for blackbirds around the yard.
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The Beeman R7 is Swwwweeeet. A little spendy....NOT!!! It's a gun you will treasure over a lifetime, then pass it on down to other family members. Don't fall in the trap buying a bunch of clone guns to save a few pennies. Buy right and cry once.
This hobby is CHEAP compared to other hobbies . If not the R7 make it the R9.
Good luck.
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Have you (or anyone else) had any experience with a tuned gun from Vortex ? Just wondering about the quality and thoroughness of the tune. Buying the tuned gun from them would be much cheaper than buying a factory gun then sending it out to a custom tuner -- if the outcome was the same.
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I think starting out with something inexpensive and that has some power and performs is what got me sticking with springers. If you can latch on to a deal like one of these Remington Vantage 1200s for just under $80, you can see what even an inexpensive springer can do:
http://www.airgundepot.com/refurbished-remington-vantage-air-rifle-177-cal-1200-fps-w-scope.html
Not so powerful that it'll be finicky about aim and hold, but powerful enough to be exciting, and light enough to shoot for fun for hours.
If you want something a little nicer, I like the TF89s, which have a little more heft and character. But then the price doubles even to get that 'cheap' chinese rifle.
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ray1377 - 4/20/2010 9:50 PM
Maybe something like, most forgiving springer for around $250.
You can get that Remington Vantage 1200 I suggested for $80 and then have it turbo tuned with a trigger replacement and be at $260! I think mine's great.
I liked the TF87 for smooth shooting out of the box. @ $180 it is just under your range. I never shot one of those tuned, and if it gets better than out of the box, you'd have a real gem.
Daveshoot has his finger on value when he talks about the Cometa Fenix/RWS94 (same gun). I like the Cometa Fusion Star a bit more but you'll be more likely to get a Fenix or RWS 94 for $130-$150, and with a $150 tune you'll have a wonderful gun. I have a Cometa Fusion Star and a Fenix. I think they are the best values I got in my various purchases, and I look for bargains...