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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Crosman-Benjamin Gate => : wahoowad May 08, 2010, 06:09:22 AM

: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 08, 2010, 06:09:22 AM

My first Trail XL had a Nitro piston failure so Crosman quickly replaced the whole gun. It arrived yesterday and I spent a couple hours this morning cleaning it up. I broke it down and wiped off all the mystery oil, cleaned the barrel and shroud, installed my GRT III trigger, polished the cocking foot, then put it all back together. Some things I noticed.... the top of the breach seal looked deformed so I pulled it out and installed it the other way. The bottom was more uniform so looked better when I had it back in. I think the face of the breach is also not machined perfectly flat but am hoping the breech seal provides the necessary sealing to the combustion chamber port. The seal is flatter on one side though. I can see other fit and finish issues different between my first gun and this one, obviously signs of the low cost chinese manufacturing. I think my other gun was finished a better and had a nicer stock but this gun so far looks serviceable. Trigger on this gun was worse than the other so was glad to have the GRT III on hand to swap out.

Rifle Trail XL .22  
Pellet JSB Exact  
Weight 18.1  
Shot # FPS
1 880
2 810
3 824
4 856
5 880
6 877
7 819
8 835
9 838
10 844

Max 880.0
Min 810.0
Average 846.3
Standard Deviation 26.0
Extreme Spread 70.0
Energy 28.8

Rifle Trail XL .22  
Pellet CPHP- (the looser fittings ones)  
Weight 14.3  
Shot # FPS
1 928
2 922
3 892
4 866
5 873
6 875
7 873
8 877
9 876
10 874
Max 928.0
Min 866.0
Average 885.6
Standard Deviation 21.8
Extreme Spread 62.0
Energy 24.9

Rifle Trail XL .22  
Pellet CPHP+ (the tighter fittings ones)  
Weight 14.3  
Shot # FPS
1 899
2 906
3 902
4 908
5 897
Max 908.0
Min 897.0
Average 902.4
Standard Deviation 4.6
Extreme Spread 11.0
Energy 25.9

I'm hoping additional shooting will break in the wide spreads from the first 2 shot groups. I've only put about 30 shots through it so still dieseling. Next is mounting the scope and further break in rounds. I'm hoping to shoot the gun awhile, find out where it stabilizes, then decide whether to go deeper inside to install my Maccari seal and lubes.

                                   

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 08, 2010, 01:27:54 PM

Hmmm, did some more shooting today after mounting my scope. Could not get it consistently under an inch but willing to give the gun another 50 rounds to settle down. After 50 rounds my speed has dropped about 50 fps, which is a little disappointing. Still some smoke but gun not as loud so I guess previous higher numbers were due to deiseling. One thing I noticed is that my arm never, ever felt tired cocking it today despite distinct memories of struggling to finish the cocking movement on the prior gun after cocking it over and over. Has me a little paranoid the piston is weak.

More JSB 18.1 shots:
779
780
784
788
795
792
801
810
799
801
794
801
798
792
794
795
792
799
806
Max   810.0
Min   779.0
Average   794.7
Extreme Spread   31.0
Energy   25.4

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 08, 2010, 02:03:52 PM

Have you tried other pellets besides the JSB 18.1 jumbos?

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 08, 2010, 02:14:10 PM

Perry50 - 5/8/2010  10:03 PM  Have you tried other pellets besides the JSB 18.1 jumbos?

Hi Perry,

Yes, I shot some Crosman Premier Hollowpoints and listed their results in my original post above. I shot them earlier today but did not use them again during my second shoot of the afternoon since I was trying to dial in the scope and wanted to stick to a single brand of pellet while I got it close to zero.

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: airiscool May 08, 2010, 11:43:12 PM

wahoowad - 5/8/2010  9:27 PM

Could not get it consistently under an inch but willing to give the gun another 50 rounds to settle down. After 50 rounds my speed has dropped about 50 fps, which is a little disappointing. Still some smoke but gun not as loud so I guess previous higher numbers were due to deiseling.

Don't give up just because it won't shoot under an inch. You may not have found the pellet it likes best yet. Mine does best with Predators and sprays Superdomes all over. Putting the Pred and Superdome targets next to each other, you wouldn't believe they were shot with the same gun.

I'd say the overly high numbers, extream spread, and still smoking is a sure sign of deiseling. I don't think you have a weak piston, your drop of 50 fps with Jumbo heavies puts it closer to what mine and some other XL's do with that same pellet.  

And, it may take more than just another 50 pellets to settle in.

Shooting, then taking a few days off got my arm more used to the cocking force so it didn't seem quite as bad as at first. Have you tried the bathroom scale to measure and see if it realy is less cocking force needed ??

Hang in there, it may settle down to be a real tack driver once you find it's favorite  pellet .... or you may still need to replace the seal. Kinda early to tell which.

Paul.

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Gene_SC May 09, 2010, 05:52:50 AM

If I may add something to this post. Most all the springers made today come with nylon piston seals. These seals are very hard and do not conform to the small deviations in the combustion chamber very well. Oil will pass by these seals. The JM seals are much more plyable and will conform to most any imperfections in the combustion chamber.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: rocker1 May 09, 2010, 08:08:39 AM

i went out ran my xl100 through the chrony after reading this.  i have not shot it through it  just the xl1500 i only have 2 kinds pellets so here they are............cphp 921  925  918  918  922 927  929  924  924  919  rws pointed 14.5   912  914  896  917  896   914  905  908
910  914             don't know if you compare this to yours or not but here they are. i have probley shot a tin of pellets through it since i replaced the seal.  thanks david

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 09, 2010, 08:36:05 AM

I shot about 125 more rounds today. My comment above not feeling the magnum cocking effort... well it is there today! I had to stop even though I was making some progress with groups. FPS came up some too across the board.

Tighter pellets were best today. Funny, my last Trail was loving the looser CPHP's but this one likes the tight ones. What are some tighter fitting .22 pellets? JSB Exacts (15.9) and Jumbo Heavy (18.1) were fitting about medium.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 09, 2010, 08:55:45 AM

My Trail also likes tight fitting pellets so I ordered some H&N pellets because they come in different size heads and are made with hard skirts. I ordered the FTT in 5.55 mm and some Baracudas in 5.53 mm. These seem to be the largest diameter .22 pellets available. They both shoot very well in my gun, tight groups and good velocity. I'm glad I ordered lots of them.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: airiscool May 09, 2010, 10:01:55 AM

Predators fit the tightest in my XL. They also happen to shoot the best in it.

Got the mic out and measured the Predators to be .218 inch (5.537 mm) at the head and .226 inch at the Skirt ( 5.7404 mm).

Next, I measured Superdomes, Super-H-Points,  Jumbo 15.8, and Jumbo13.3 and they all measure close to .225 inch at the skirts.

Of those four, the Super-H-Points are next best in accuracy to the Preds, then the Jumbo's, and the Superdomes shoot the worst with this gun.

Paul.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 09, 2010, 10:05:07 AM

Perry50 - 5/9/2010  4:55 PM  My Trail also likes tight fitting pellets so I ordered some H&N pellets because they come in different size heads and are made with hard skirts. I ordered the FTT in 5.55 mm and some Baracudas in 5.53 mm. These seem to be the largest diameter .22 pellets available. They both shoot very well in my gun, tight groups and good velocity. I'm glad I ordered lots of them.

How do I order by size? I'm looking at AoA pellet selection for H&N and you just get either the .22 or .20 or whatever caliber. What am I missing? Also do not see Predators at their website.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: airiscool May 09, 2010, 10:17:59 AM

I get the Predators at Pyramyd Air.

There is some pellet sizes info from Straightshooters in the Library, but I noticed they list the Superdome skirts as .221 and the ones I have measure closer to .225.

If the pellet maker has a website you may be able to get size info from there, or through contacting them.  

Paul.

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 09, 2010, 11:55:58 AM

Numbers from today. Like I said, best group and POA concentration came with Crosman Premier HP's that fit tight. Looser ones sucked. A couple nickel sized groups but still trying to get them right on my POA.

JSB Exact 15.9 gr.
Max   873.0
Min   857.0
AVG    863.3
SD   4.7
Spread   16.0
Energy   26.3

Crosman Premier HP 14.3 gr. (loose ones)
Max   896.0
Min   879.0
AVG    887.2
SD   5.3
Spread   17.0
Energy   25.0

Crosman Premier HP 14.3 gr. (tight ones)
Max   917.0
Min   909.0
AVG    913.1
SD   2.8
Spread   8.0
Energy   26.5

JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy 18.1 gr.
Max   821.0
Min   805.0
AVG    811.0
SD   4.7
Spread   16.0
Energy   26.4

My fps/energy came up a bit but gun not getting anywhere near the advertised 30 fpe. Spreads are not too bad, maybe they will continue to improve. I've only put about 150 pellets through it so far. Still smoking a lot though. It did destroy a few of my metal targets I had made!

What kind of velocity or energy are you guys getting with your Baracudas or other heavier pellets (heavier than my 18.1 Jumbo Heavies)???

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: StrawHat May 09, 2010, 12:56:19 PM

-------Gamo Rockets -- --------- H&N Rabbit Mag II------------------- Predator Poly------------------- H&N Barracuda
High--932 ----------------------- 678------------------------------------- 835--------------------------------765
Low---905----------------------- 647------------------------------------- 823--------------------------------757
Avg---916----------------------- 657------------------------------------- 829--------------------------------762
FPE---026.6---------------------023.6-----------------------------------024.4------------------------------027.2
SD---- 8-------------------------- 9.-------------------------------------- 3------------------------------------2.23

This is what  I got during break-in, I will chrony again after a few more tins.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 09, 2010, 01:53:06 PM

This table comes from straightshooters and shows head and skirt diameter of .22 cal pellets. They don't have predators listed but Crow Magnums have the biggestskirts. Pellet .22 Adv. Wt Head Dia Skirt Dia Length Head Type Qty/Tin RWS Hobby (http://"../rws/rphobby.html) 11.90 0.215 0.223 0.250 Wadcutter 500 Beeman Silver Bear (http://"../beeman/bpsilverbear.html) 12.65 0.217 0.228 0.246 HollowPoint 200 Beeman Laser (http://"../beeman/bplaser.html) 13.36 0.216 0.219 0.254 Specialty 250 Beeman H&N Match (http://"../beeman/bphnmatch.html) 13.75 0.215 0.217 0.306 Wadcutter 200 RWS Meisterkugeln (http://"../rws/rpmeisterkugeln.html) 13.90 0.214 0.223 0.250 Wadcutter 500 RWS Super H Point (http://"../rws/rpsuperhpoint.html) 13.90 0.213 0.225 0.273 Pointed 500 Crosman Premier (http://"../crosman/crppremiers.html) 14.30 0.215 0.220 0.266 Round 625 JSB Express (http://"../jsb/jpjsbexpress.html) 14.30 0.214 0.223 0.263 Round 250 Beeman Bearcub (http://"../beeman/bpbearcup.html) 14.44 0.218 0.226 0.240 Wadcutter 200 RWS Superpoint (http://"../rws/rpsuperpoint.html) 14.50 0.214 0.225 0.338 Pointed 500 RWS Superdome (http://"../rws/rpsuperdome.html) 14.50 0.215 0.221 0.281 Round 500 Beeman FTS (http://"../beeman/bpfts.html) 14.60 0.219 0.223 0.251 Round 200 Beeman Ram Jet (http://"../beeman/bpramjet.html) 14.76 0.217 0.228 0.270 Specialty 200 Beeman Silver Ace (http://"../beeman/bpsilverace.html) 15.24 0.214 0.223 0.271 Specialty 250 Napier Power Hunter (http://"../napier/hunterpellets.html) 15.42 0.213 0.227 .0273 Round 500 Beeman Silver Sting (http://"../beeman/bpsilversting.html) 15.74 0.217 0.228 0.327 Pointed 200 JSB Exact (Jumbo) (http://"../jsb/jpjsbexact.html) 15.90 0.215 0.223 0.292 Round 250 Beeman Silver Arrow (http://"../beeman/bpsilverarrow.html) 17.10 0.217 0.227 0.301 Pointed 200 JSB Exact Heavy (http://"../jsb/jpjsbexact.html) 18.00 .0214 0.223 0.300 Round 500 Beeman Crow Magnum (http://"../beeman/bpcrowmagnum.html) 18.20 0.217 0.228 0.305 HollowPoint 200 Beeman Kodiak (http://"../beeman/bpkodiak.html) 21.10 0.217 0.227 0.333 Round 200 JSB Exact Monster (http://"../jsb/jpjsbexact.html) 25.40 0.213 0.222 .0342 Round 200

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 09, 2010, 02:07:20 PM

wahoowad,

I buy my pellets from this place:

http://www.nikkonos.com/H-N-Sport.html

http://stores.ebay.com/olympicmarksmanequipment

You can choose the H&N pellets by size.

I used to buy Beeman FTS pellets for my Trail NP but one on five was loose fitting and were fliers so I started using the same pellets under the H&N brand (FTT) with 5.55 mm heads and now every single pellet fits nice and snug. I also bought a couple tins of the larger 5.53 mm Baracudas, they are accurate in my Trail and they carry a lot of energy downrange. They're the same pellet as the Kodiak.

: Re: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 09, 2010, 11:04:02 PM

Thanks Perry, good info! I am going to try and flare the skirts on my JSB as recommended by another member and see if that makes a difference. Sounds like a good experiment. Now I just need to figure out a way to flare the skirts...

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 10, 2010, 04:44:33 AM

I made my own pellseat out of a piece of stainless steel rod. It's just large enough to not fit in the breech. I rounded off one side and use it to seat the pellet. It ensures the pellet's skirt is flared nicely.

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: airiscool May 10, 2010, 04:55:54 AM

Thanks for posting the H&N info Perry, gonna give those different sizes a try next time I order pellets.

Paul

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: wahoowad May 10, 2010, 06:14:13 AM

Perry50 - 5/10/2010  12:44 PM  I made my own pellseat out of a piece of stainless steel rod. It's just large enough to not fit in the breech. I rounded off one side and use it to seat the pellet. It ensures the pellet's skirt is flared nicely.

I don't see how using this thing to seat a looser fitting pellet will have the opportunity to flare a skirt within the breech? I could see if you were pushing down on the pellet on a work bench or cloth or something, but pushing it into the breech with your rod...wouldn't it just slide in easy and not get any flaring pressure on the skirt?

: RE: Breaking in my replacement Trail XL .22
: Perry50 May 10, 2010, 06:39:39 AM

I guess it depends on what pellets you are using. The pellets I use have 5.55 mm heads and fit tight in the breech. I push (while I twist the pellsat) them the rest of the way in and this flares the skirts.

If you have loose fitting pellets to begin with, you might have to flare them in your hand first but this seems like a waste of time in my opinion. I would just buy tighter fitting pellets to begin with and just load and shoot.