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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Airgun Gate => : raterminator July 08, 2006, 05:11:40 PM

: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: raterminator July 08, 2006, 05:11:40 PM: Why do you lube the pellets with pre-charged pneumatic airguns?
There are several reason. The high pressure air in a PCP tends to contains a small amount of moisture. Lubing pellets increases accuracy, keeps the barrel lubed so it doesn't rust, and also reduces leading in the barrel. NEVER LUBE PELLETS USED IN A SPRING PISTION AIRGUN!

I found this on a website, a day after I lube my pellets with Napier. Do I really need to wash them again and why can’t I do it?
: RE: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: rabbit July 09, 2006, 01:35:36 AM: Hello all...
Why can't you lube pellets for a spring - piston gun ? Does it cause any harm or damage ? I would be interested to know. Thanks...

Rabbit :)
: Re: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: July 09, 2006, 02:02:20 AM: Well if you over lube the pellets they can cause the rifle to diesel which is harmful to the spring, and can cause it to fail.

Other than that I have been lubing pellets on my spring rifles for a long time. The main thing I lube them is because I wash them to get all the leftover junk out of the pellets, and then lube them with Napier.
: RE: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: July 09, 2006, 04:32:11 AM: The potential problems with using lubed pellets in springers include the posibility of the lubes detonating and causing damage(unlikely) or giving inconsistent velocity(more likely).The other major isue is that springers depend on pellet friction in the breach to get the pellet to hang around long enough for the piston to develope peak pressure.Too loose or too slick a pellet will drop the velocity.To add to the confusion,virtualy all pellets are coated with something at the factory to reduce oxidation in storage.If you clean and coat your own,at least you know the pellet is clean and what the lube is.Try some cleaned and lightly lubed,("lightly" seems to be key),and see what you get...
: That statement makes no sense...
: July 09, 2006, 02:25:07 PM: Actually, I regularly use lubed pellets in my springers. I use them, too, in my single-shot PCP's - the TalonSS, and when I use the single pellet tray in the Rapid. But basically, ALL the springers (R9, TX200, Theoben Evolution).

The thing I do NOT use lubed pellets in is the PCP's with a magazine. It is the magazine that is the problem - I don't own springer with a magazine like the SLR98, but if I did, I would avoid lubed pellets there, too. Magazines tend to pick up the lubricant, then attract dust and dirt, and eventually show you problems. Some magazines are easier to clean than others.

I have tried several different products and mixtures of stuff for lubes, and have settled on the "Slick-50 1Lube" in the spray can. You get 12 ounces for less than the price of a 0.42 ounce bottle of Napier. I dump 250 pellets in a baggy after I have spayed the inside with 2 or 3 small sprays of 1Lube, then shake and rub the lube on the pellets, pore them out on a paper towel, and let dry for a half hour. It dries with no film to get on your fingers or barrel, and most important, it actually seems to make some difference.

To test this, I lubed at least 15 different pellets with both Napier and Slick-50 1 lube, and then chronied the unlubed and lubed pellets. It was rare to see any difference with the Napier when compared to the unlubed pellets in either fps or velocity spread. But the 1Lube pellets usually had 30-40 fps more velocity, sometimes more, and the spread reported by the Chrony was much less. I know that velocity is not the most important parameter, but it is one thing where you can demonstrate an objective difference.

It's hard to talk about accuracy, simply because it is so dependent on the gun, the shooter, the wind and weather, and who knows what else. If you are going to make accuracy claims, then PROVE IT.

Since I usually swab the barrels in all my guns with a lightly oiled patch (followed by dry patches until pretty dry) about once every 2 weeks, I rarely ever clean the barrels with barrel cleaning solution (unless the gun is new). My barrels collect only a little lead dust in that time - I think this is mostly from the CP's I often shoot. CP's tend to be very dirty - they are the one pellet I always clean with detergent when I get a new box, but even after cleaning they tend to soil your fingers. Maybe lubing helps with a clean barrel - I'm just not sure because I keep them wiped out anyway.

Some pro shooters I know lube their pellets, some never do. It's up to you, but I think it would be very hard to hurt your gun with a lubed pellet. It would have to be dripping with oil to cause any dieseling. Lubing is supposed to be done very lightly. I've never had a gun diesel when I used lubrication.

Besides, some detonation of the oils is absolutely necessary to get good performance from your gun - but that's a whole nother discussion...
: Sure it makes sense.....
: July 09, 2006, 03:24:50 PM: With a springer, a minute amount of lubricant is discharged every time you shoot the gun. This is more than adequate lubrication for the pellet. The same basic situation holds true with a single stroke or multi stroke pneumatic. Any additional lubrication becomes over-lubrication, with the resultant problems already alluded to elswhere in this thread.

This lubricant discharge is not present with the PCP guns, thus the need to lubricate the pellets.
: Re: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: raterminator July 09, 2006, 03:33:58 PM: Mark, what kind of cleaning solution you use on a new barrel.
: Re: Never Lube Pellets used in a springers
: July 10, 2006, 02:17:43 AM: Garen,

Mostly I use the Beeman Cleaner/Degreaser solution. It supposedly doesn't hurt breech seals which usually get pretty wet with the solution.

I know Charlie has recommended Goo Gone in the past, and I have used it without any apparent problems. Found in any Walmart painting section.
: RE: Sure it makes sense.....
: July 10, 2006, 02:52:35 AM: Nah, still not a helpful statement... This is my thinking on this.

I don't rely on lubed pellets to keep my barrel protected from moisture, that's what something like Beeman Metalophilic rust inhibiting gun barrel oil is for, that's what I swab my barrels with every couple of weeks. I have shot PCP's a long time, and rust is not a problem with proper maintenance. Also, I use a carbon fiber tank, not a pump, so again, moisture is much less. If you do use a pump, you should have a moisture filter/trap and be more disciplined about barrel maintenance. Lubed pellets are a small part of this equation.

Again, with maintenance, leading in the barrel is just not an issue. I'd rather know I swabbed the barrel occasionally than rely on pellets to keep the barrel clean.

I earlier addressed the issue of accuracy claims. Prove it if your going to state that, and also show it isn't some other factor affecting your accuracy. I want accuracy to improve, but I only try to prove it to myself, and can't claim to be able to obtain it for others.

As far as needing a little oil in the barrel for detonation and proper velocity for the pellet, again the issue is solved by barrel cleaning with an oiled patch. Even after then following with dry patches to remove excess oil, you are left with plenty of oil for the gun to work well. It's actually pretty hard to get rid of all the oil and get no detonation in the barrel. A microscopic film in the barrel is plenty. You are probably right that a springer does put a little extra in the barrel from the cylinder oil, but I don't think it adds any help to what should be there from a well maintained and oiled barrel.

I'm lubing pellets to get slippery pellets with more velocity, especially more consistent velocities with each shot, and to hopefully improve accuracy through this (sorry, didn't want to get back to that issue again, but...). Moisture, detonation, rust protection, or leading are not things I try to address with lubing pellets.
: RE: Sure it makes sense.....
: July 10, 2006, 09:33:16 AM: While I cannot quantify my statements with scientific mumbo-jumbo, meant to dazzle or confuse, I can quantify those statements with simple fact. I have been shooting/fixing/experimenting with springers for over 30 years. I have shot quite literally hundreds of thousands of pellets - target shooting, hunting, plinking, etc. I have never lubed a pellet yet for "normal" use - only for experiments. I own springers that are over a hundred years old, that still have shiny bores - not from regular maintenance, but due to the fact that the bore is kept oiled every time it is shot. This microscopic oil film also helps prevent leading. Springer bores do not require that much attention unless exposed to extremely humid or damp conditions. (I have spoken with some "purists" who tell me that over-cleaning can actually damage the bore - although I'm not entirely convinced of that).

The whole pellet lubing excercise came into being with the advent of the modern PCPs, in which there is no lubrication expelled during firing. Thus, lubed pellets and lubrication of the bore between shooting sessions is a must.
: RE: Sure it makes sense.....
: July 10, 2006, 01:38:36 PM: Leonard - If you really feel a need to get in a ****ing contest over lubed pellets, then I'm your huckleberrry.

But, I think I'll just let you be right this time. It just isn't that important.
: Ease up, dude......
: July 10, 2006, 02:38:48 PM: Just trying to give you a little benefit of many years of experience. If thats offensive to you, pardon me.

If you want to try to dispell established practice, and your perception of rebuttal is a "****ing contest", time to grow up and realize that a conflicting point of view can be a source of knowledge. You've obviously not learned that yet.

Do whatever works for ya'.

Why do you lube the pellets with pre-charged pneumatic airguns?
There are several reason. The high pressure air in a PCP tends to contains a small amount of moisture. Lubing pellets increases accuracy, keeps the barrel lubed so it doesn't rust, and also reduces leading in the barrel. NEVER LUBE PELLETS USED IN A SPRING PISTION AIRGUN!
: RE: Ease up, dude......
: raterminator July 10, 2006, 07:06:06 PM: Easy, guys, easy. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
I have a question for you, Leonard. If the pellets come form the factory already with some lube, than if one cleans the pellets and then relubes them, isn’t that basically the same thing? Now it might be another thing if you OVER-lube them. I don’t have your experience in the matter, and I could be wrong, but logically it makes sense.
: Not sure which pellets that you are referring to that.....
: July 11, 2006, 12:42:40 PM: Come lubricated - that could be something new specifically for the PCP shooters.

Most pellets that I have used over the years have not had any form of lubricant on them - H&N match, H&N FT Trophy, Eley match, RWS Meisters, RWS Superpoints, Milbro Caledonian, BSA diabolos, Webley Specials, Crosman Super-Pells, Beatall diabolos, JSB Schack, JSB match, to name a few.

Some of the Crosman pellets, such as their Copperhead pellets, appear to have a lubricant on them, because your hands end up filthy from handling them. There was much discussion of this quite some time ago, and the general consensus was that this "lubricant" was the residue left during the forming of the pellet, and that Crosman, in the interest of cutting costs, chose not to clean the pellets before packaging. (most other manufacturers do). A lot of folks began washing them purely for cleanliness while shooting.

The point I was trying to make is this - using a product to lube the pellets, judiciously, will likely not cause any harm to a springer - but - it's not likely to result in any appreciable benefit either. Over lubing does have the potential to create problems - maybe not catastophic, but sure as heck frustrating. Using a high tech lubricant with a highly flamable carrier could be disastrous in a springer, while totally benign in a PCP. Also, many of these high tech lubes are expensive, so if you don't really need it, you'll have some extra $$ to spend elsewhere - more pellets, another gun, etc.
: RE: Not sure which pellets that you are referring to that.....
: raterminator July 11, 2006, 04:36:14 PM: Thanks, Leonard. It's very enlightening.

Have to admit, I’m not familiar with PCP yet, have only two springers, and pellets I’m referring to are Crosman Premiers, which no doubt need cleaning. The other pellets I have are clean enough. So, if they are not lubed and are dirty for a cost cut, I assume that all they need is just a good wash. Am I right? BTW, I used about 50 Napier lubed pellets today and got very good groups, but the gun got too loud.
: RE: Not sure which pellets that you are referring to that.....
: rabbit July 12, 2006, 07:04:32 AM: Hello...

Did it get " LOUD " because of " DEISELLING " ? If it did , isn't that a bad thing ? I just don't know about lubeing pellets in springers. Thanks...

Rabbit :)
: RE: "the gun got too loud ....."
: July 12, 2006, 12:46:33 PM: While I am totally unfamiliar with Napier, it sounds to me like you were getting some detonation of the lube - meaning that the flash point is much lower than the temperatures reached by the rapidly compressed air in your springer. The rapidly compressing air in a magnum class springer can reach as much as 1200 degrees F - albeit, just for an instant - but that is enough to ignite many oils and synthetic lubes.

If the gun was producing a fairly loud "bang", similar to a rimfire, that is the kind of thing that could very well cause catastophic damage to your springer. The piston seal could become burned, the mainspring could fracture, etc.

What range were you were shooting at for your groups? Were the groups any better or worse than the same pellets unlubed? To try the unlubed pellet grouping, make sure that you fire 20 or 30 unlubed pellets through the gun first, before you do your actual test groups - this way, you will be sure that any trace of the Napier is gone, and the barrel is lubed with lubricant mist from the compression chamber.

Based upon your own observations, I'd say you are correct - just wash the pellets and dry them for use in your springer.
: RE: "the gun got too loud ....."
: raterminator July 12, 2006, 01:45:37 PM: No, it doesn’t sound like a detonation. I think I have a better explanation to what happened in my case. The cause of the sound is pellet’s smoothness and low resistance to the air pressure in the bore. Try to shoot with one or two Beeman’s Cleaning Pellets and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
About groups: actually, they are not just good groups. They all fit in 1/2" diameter circle at 10 yard range (GTX trigger did amazing things with my Hunter 440), regardless of pellets beeing lubed or not.