GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Back Room => : daved August 18, 2007, 10:19:23 AM
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There is a new wrinkle in the whole GTX/GRT trigger saga. Seems Steve in NC has finally found someone to manufacture "his" GTX trigger, and has announced, on the Yellow, that they will be available soon. Here's the link to his post: http://www.network54.com/Forum/479035/message/1187367985/The+Bling+is+Back%21++GTX+replacement+Gamo+trigger+blades+will+be+in+stock...
You'd think that after a year, he'd finally just let it go, but some people seem to thrive on controversy and vendetta. Anyway, I had a little fun at his expense (I HOPE!), but you might want to look fast, I don't think it will last. Later.
Dave
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LMAO off Dave! It's still there with no reply, of course. I too wonder how long it will last. Interesting looking at his "new" GTX how it seems to have some changes it the upper structure and geometry. Still no serrations on the blade face. Anodizing doesn't look that great from the pics on that post. Hmmm.........
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Way to go Dave. It was still there as of 1841 EST. I don't know that he can respond to that. The other thing is if he is so smart and this is his idea where is his store selling something through someone else's store come on. :p :p :p
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Actually, Stephanie, I wouldn't put money on it, but I'm pretty sure those are the same pix that Bob used to have on his site for the GTX trigger. They sure look familiar, maybe Bob will chime in and verify my suspicion. Who knows, it might last awhile, I think the current YP Gamo moderator is a bit hesitant about deleting posts, and the owner, Steve in CT, doesn't check in there that often. A previous post I expected to get deleted is still there. Time will tell. Sure is fun rattling his cage, though, there's just something about the prissy little $hit that sets my teeth on edge. Later.
Dave
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You can betthe post won’t last long…lol… and by the way Dave… that isn’t the pics that I had on the website but they do look similar.
It is interesting that Steve-in NC is selling his GTX for $30.00. He should be selling them for $8.00 allowing $2.00 for S&H. Steve-in-NC does not mention it but according to his own words, he is making a profit of about 700-800%. On the other hand, maybe it is costing $6.00 and he is charging $24.00 for shipping and handling. He sure is a con isn’t he? He’ll get you one way or another.
This was the post where a response was put up by Steve-in-NC and his statement regarding his cost. He posted this on our forum.
http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=217&posts=8&highlight=gtx&highlightmode=1#M970 (http://thread-view.asp?tid=217&posts=8&highlight=gtx&highlightmode=1#M970)
Posted 6/26/2006 3:40 PM (#958 - in reply to #941)
Subject: Why, Bob, that is a very interesting proposition. I'm inclined to accept!
As you know, when we first introduced my (MK-1) GTX, the costs of production (in both money and effort) were high. But over the two intervening two years, costs have dropped precipitously, but our price didn't. Currently, each piece costs only $3 or $4, all tooling has been paid for, and they come finished and ready to drop into the poly bag and mail. That makes the current net markup on the most recent $35 price about 800%!
Therefore, since you gave as the reason for your retirement last week not having enough fun, and since you say that you have the benefit of the airgun community at heart, I'm sure you can have no objection to dropping your markup on the GTX to a more reasonable retail number: say 50%?
So, as soon as you've made a public announcement of intending to reintroduce and sell the GTX for the new (and still generously remunerative) price of 1.5 x $4 = $6, please get back to me. I think we can do business!
To read all of it, go here
http://charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/S&B%20Fallout.doc (http://"http://charliedatuna.com/airgun_docs/S&B%20Fallout.doc)
Based on what the GTX looks like in the posted picture, they have been changed some from his older version but just looking at them a person can see that they are far from being the quality of the GRT. I would also assume from what they look like that they are again being made off shore again and the quality and workmanship is of the same inferior quality as in the past. I think Stephanie is right on the money.
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From what I can see the pics of the original GTX only had 1 adjustment screw,huhm. :o The new GTX has 2 adjustment screws,huhm. :o Kind of makes you wonder who is stealing from who. :p If you look Bob's GRT-III is completely different from the original GTX, except color, but the new GTX, looks just like Bob's GRT-111, without the ridges, so sad. :0
Mike
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No, though similar, it's not like the GRT-III and there are differences. If it were like the GRT-III, it would be quite a bit more expensive to manufacture for sure. What he has there would be pretty cheap to make it looks like and the tolerances you can bet will not be as good. It might work but the workmanship and materials will not be like that built into the GRT. It has to be cheap with a huge markup or Steve wouldn't have done it. That's the way he works and believe me I know cuz learned the hard way. :0 :0
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You're absolutely right, Paul, but somehow, I just can't help myself. If it wasn't SO one sided, it wouldn't bother me so much, but I remember what it was like being a newb. I discovered the Yellow before I found the GTA, the new guys over there don't even get the chance to hear of another alternative. Mention Bob, GTA, or the GRT III over there, and it gets deleted. I've posted responses here for newbies re: trigger mods, and include Bob's trigger and Rich's and Skylers'/Steve in NC's inserts. Never had a post deleted here yet :-)! I know, it's tilting at wind mills, but sometimes you just have to do it. Later.
Dave
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Just went to check in on the Yellow, and 2 recent posts of mine aimed at Steve in NC have disappeared! Last time this happened, I got banned shortly after. Later.
Dave
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Yeh, I looked this morning and your post, along with his responce were gone. I used to have 1 of Rich's inserts, started having problems with it. I emailed him to tell him of the problems and a possible fix for it, his responce was that I had it adjusted wrong. I told him that if it can move inside of the blade, then there is no way to adjust it properly. I told him that he may want to include in the directions, that if it moves to epoxy, or something, in place so that it can not move, then it can be adjusted properly. He replied with I'm a dumbarse and don't know what I'm talking about. So I asked him to kindly remove my review of his insert from his site, as I do not wish to help him promote a potentually dangerous product. I also told him that if it wasn't gone by a certain date, that he would recive a bill for my advertising and it wouldn't be cheap. It's still there so I guess he wants to pay for it, I'll be sending a bill shortly.
Mike
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But he had no choice but to delete them as well as his after he made the last two posts. He opened a can of worms. He was afraid that you would do a little research and find out about the non-existent “tooling and setup “ fee's. He left himself wide open to the truth and that would have caused him problems. Here’s what he didn't want you to find out and post and something that I want everybody to know.
When Steve first set up the manufacturing of the MK-I GTX and the MK-II-GTX triggers, they were ordered here and made off shore and there were no tooling and setup costs at all, period. Not one dime. It was a cost per piece with a minimum order I think of 200 pieces. I would bet that he is using the same process now through the same company and there is no setup or tooling fees. It cost him almost nothing.
Later, when I started manufacturing the GTX-III and the GRT-III here in the US, he did not pay or have any part of the cost of manufacturing. The original manufacturer retained all of the tooling and programming rights for the original GTX-II and GTX-III that he and I designed because he never charged me for the work, and rightfully so. I incurred and paid for all of the tooling and setup fee’s myself when I changed manufactures. Steve never paid for any tooling and/or setup fees ever at any time.
So when you questioned it, that’s what he was afraid would come out and doesn’t/didn’t want anybody to know and he knew that you were going to find out. He couldn’t let the post stand and be answered, but it couldn’t hardly be left unanswered either so he attempted to dump it back on you. Dave… you can’t win with him??? When it appears that you (or anybody) else does , he just snuffs them.
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Thanks, Bob, you answered the question even before I asked it. I know a little about manufacturing, and suspected something along those lines. So your right, of course I had to disappear. That's okay, though, I think it was up long enough to raise some questions in peoples minds. I'm seriously thinking of ordering one of his "new" GTX triggers so I can do a meticulous comparison to the GRT III I got recently for my .22 CFX. Between this and some of the other forums that AREN'T under the thumb of Steve in CT, if there are problems with it, we can get the word out. And if it works, fine, it just gives everyone one more option. Unlike the Steves, I can dislike someone without feeling the need to destroy them. If his product checks out, I don't have a problem saying so.
And Mike, although I think Rich can be a jerk, and I've told him so, you're the only one I've heard of so far that's had a problem with his insert. That said, I still think you have the right to request your review be pulled from his site, and I think he has an obligation to do so. Either that, or include your later negative review. I think the latter would be the smarter business move on his part, no one is perfect, and it would show an admirable sense of balance and integrity. Probably won't happen though, he strikes me as a little too stubborn to admit he's wrong. Wonder if I've been banned from the Yellow again :-)? Later.
Dave
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Dave, I hope that I am the only one that has had that problem. I had posted that I could have had an oversize blade, small insert, or a combination, of the 2. It had alittle movement when new and after 1500-2000 shots later it had alot, which caused a longer 1st stage. I believe what was happening, was the recoil would cause it to move up and every 15-20 shots, it would catch in the up position and would be just like it was over adjusted. That is why I sugested that if it moves to fix it so that it can't, probably a good idea anyway, no worries.
Mike
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Great idea Dave, and I think it is only fair to show both sides of the testing. I do not have a problem with that but also take in account of the tolerances as well. I do not think you will be banned for one simple reason..:) Steve_NC wants the challenge to argue with you. Not many guys stand up to him because of his slipper vocabulary and misguided logic...:) He wants to keep the saga going and he wants it to be a one sided affair. So I would be willing to bet you a buck that he would not ban you..:) As far as Rich is concerned, we parted our ways long before he ever made his last post on the GTA. He is where he should be right now...:)
Just my thoughts
Gene
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I guess it took awhile, but my access to the Yellow is now blocked, again. Truth be told, I just don't care that much. The last time it happened, I didn't expect it, and emailed the forum owner to get un-banned. This time, I'm not going to bother. Now I just need to clear the Yellow stuff off my bookmarks toolbar. Later :-)!
Dave
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I didn't get a chance to read it and just wondered what you said and what he said in reply.
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You are right Dave. And he had to delete not only yours, but his own also, which he did. He realized after the fact the blunder that he made and that it was the only way that he could possibly extricate himself from it. Very cunning.... but realized to late.
As far as trigger differences are concerned, when we parted company, I sent Steve half of the remaining GTX-III's that were still in the inventory and it would have been easy to pull the measurements from them. It would also be very easy to obtain a GRT-III as there has only been one instance where I did not fill an order that was questionable, and it would have been very easy to get measurements from a GTX-III and incorporate them into his trigger to resolve his faulty original trigger designs. It would be a bit difficult and expensive to duplicate the entire GRT-III trigger blade as it is today though.
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Actually, it's more insidious than that. Before I was banned, I was "unpersoned". My responses to a post were deleted, as were the responses to my responses. Classic Gestapo tactics.
However, look for the post that's titled " The bling is back!" or something along those lines. This goes back about a year, but Steve in NC (Bob's former partner) has just announced the re-release of the GTX III trigger. That's what it was before it became the GRT III. If he'd left it at that, I'd probably have stayed out of it. But someone posted a question that let him take a free shot at Bob, so I felt compelled to rattle his cage a bit :-). When he and Bob parted company, one of his parting shots was a whole bunch of moral outrage over the "outrageous" profit being made on the GTX III. Well, his new GTX III is priced slightly less than Bob's GRT III, but still about the same as it was a year ago. I simply quoted his post of a year ago about the "outrageous" mark-up, and asked if those weren't his words. I guess that was the wrong thing to do :-). What's really amazing is that it lasted for several hours, and then it took several more hours before I was finally banned. So regardless of what happens next, I think I did the damage I was hoping for. Too many people had a chance to see it, and at least some of those are going to wonder why it disappeared. If there's any justice in the world at all, I just hammered a nail into the coffin of the Yellow forum as it is today. Don't get me wrong, I KNOW there are a lot of good people there. My issue is with the "gods of the Yellow", and my goal has become doing everything I can to make their lives miserable. And yes, I AM a vindictive SOB when the situation warrants. Speaking of which...
I had a thought. I'm fairly certain that some of you feel the same way I do about how the Yellow is run. Well, there are more than a few of the companies that we all do business with that have banner ads on that forum. Freedom of speech is one of the tenets that this country lives by. How many of those companies do you think would be comfortable with how badly that tenet is trampled by the Yellows owner? Maybe an email campaign making them aware of this would be in order. Whether money is changing hands or not, those ads lend credibility to the Yellow, and I, for one, don't think they deserve it. I need a hand, though. I intend to send an email to every one of those advertisers. I can remember some, but not all. Would someone please compile a list and send it to me? Better yet, post it for all of us, but if you're not comfortable doing that, send it to me and I'll post it. What you do from there is up to you. Stepping off my soapbox, now...
Dave
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Hey Dave,
I agree with you, and here's the list of advertisers:
Airguns Arizona, Airhog, Pyramyd Air, Straight Shooters, Creedmoor Sports, Pomona Airguns, AirForce Airguns, Precision Airguns & Supplies, Compasseco, Sportsman's Warehouse, and FX Airguns..also Joe's Air Tanks (qualityair@hamcontact.com)
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Thanks, Big Bill, the emails will start going out tomorrow. Good night!
Dave