GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Gamo Gate => : November 13, 2007, 10:55:24 AM
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Hi, I'm pretty new to airgunning. My first was a daisy powerline 1000 which was a peice of junk, and about 6 months ago I got a s1k. It was fun for the first 2,000ish shots then the spring broke. I mailed it in for warranty repair and 3 weeks later I got it back. My new spring broke after only about 1,500 shots... This time I am going to try to repair the gun myself. I was quick of thinking and sent a check to Rich in Mich for a 70$ super tune kit. It comes with lubes, top hat and guides, and a JM tarantula spring that has been pre set, and his trigger insert thing.
I have never operated on the internals of any sort of gun before, so it will be a challenge. I assume I don't need a spring compressor for removing the old broken spring, right? Can I get the new spring in without one too? I'm looking for feedback on the kit I purchased and tips or hints on performing the tune. And on a side note, does Rich do good buisness, is he a respectable name? Thanks for any thing you can give me!
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Welcome to GTA Josh. It seems to me that after 1500-2000 shots, the spring should not have broke so quickly. My 1st S1K spring broke well after 10,000 + shots. Might be something else wrong with the gun or it may depend on the weight of pellets you are using. Very light pellets can be a bad thing for springs. You won't need a spring compressor to remove the broken spring, but you will need one to install a new one. I'm sure some others will ring in on your issues. Good luck 8)
Greg
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I recommend you make a compresser. It's much easier with one. And as far as Rich's reputation goes, IMHO I would not hesitate to do business with him...or seek his advice re airguns.
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Welcome to the GTA Forums, Josh,
You will need a spring compressor to install the new spring, as Greg has said.
I checked Rich's web site, and I believe he includes a "Roller bearing Thrust washer" with the kit, if so, I would be cautious of using it. If it falls apart, it could destroy or damage your rifle. And I would not want to use the "Trigger insert ting", I have a GRT-III trigger myself, that has given me great and safe operation. I have never had, or would want a "trigger insert". I hated the feel of the Gamo trigger, and was thankful when I found Charlie the Tuna's outstanding trigger.
Rich also provides "Spring Guide", and I don't know what it is, however Maccari sells Heavy Tar for his springs, and those here have had great success with it. I very well may be the same, I don't know. I have purchased Maccari's lube kit for my rifles. Heavy Tar quiets the spring twang as well as lubricating it against the spring and the inside of the receiver.
I have read many fine reviews of Rich's work and products, and had hopped to purchase a spring compressor from him, just after he discontinued selling it ??
I hope this is of some help, I'm sure others will be by with their information .
Welcome to the GTA,
Bill
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...but I do them all the time without one. It helps if you're not a featherweight, and can accomodate about 65-75lbs of preload with one hand.
The technique I use is to place the rear of the action on a wooden surface close to your body with the barrel pointing straight up. Grab it firmly with one hand and push down, making sure the hole in the spring anchor (for the rear pin) lines up with the receiver. Work the pin in, you may have to tap it gently once you can feel it's lined up. I tend to keep a philips screwdriver handy in case I have trouble getting the pin in... if I can't get the pin lined up easily I can stick the smaller diameter screwdriver in there to keep the whole assembly together while giving my arm a rest.
The big risk is that it'll slip sideways while you're pushing down - which is why I don't do it on a formica surface! On a wood (or particleboard surface) I don't have that problem.
Please understand that I am not recommending this approach, I'm only making the point that it is quite possible. Probably the stoutest gun I've reassembled this way is the Powerline, which took a bit more grunt than a Shadow. Some day, I'll get brave and try my RWS350...
BTW - on that trigger insert - it can be a bit of a bear to install, and you might have to file it down a little (make it thinner) to get it into the stock trigger blade. It's not an easy mod like the CDT trigger... but once it's in there it does work quite well.
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Thanks for the warm welcome and responses. I will update what came with the kit when it gets here. Thanks again!
A while ago I installed a Rich in Mich full barrel shroud, and also a leapers 4-16x50 scope. I removed both the front and rear site, but in place of the rear site is a small metal screw that the elevation knob used to rest on. It doesn't impair my shooting, but asthetically it looks bad. Is there an easy way to remove it other than shearing it off at the base? Thanks
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Hey Josh, Welcome to the forum.:) On my S1K that screw had an allen head,very small, or you can wrap a rag around it and use pliers, it should unscrew. If the trigger insert fits loose inside of the blade be sure to epoxy it in place, so that it can't move, otherwise it can not be adjusted properly.:o
Mike
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Big_Bill - 11/14/2007 1:49 AM
Welcome to the GTA Forums, Josh,
You will need a spring compressor to install the new spring, as Greg has said.
I checked Rich's web site, and I believe he includes a "Roller bearing Thrust washer" with the kit, if so, I would be cautious of using it. If it falls apart, it could destroy or damage your rifle. And I would not want to use the "Trigger insert ting", I have a GRT-III trigger myself, that has given me great and safe operation. I have never had, or would want a "trigger insert". I hated the feel of the Gamo trigger, and was thankful when I found Charlie the Tuna's outstanding trigger.
Rich also provides "Spring Guide", and I don't know what it is, however Maccari sells Heavy Tar for his springs, and those here have had great success with it. I very well may be the same, I don't know. I have purchased Maccari's lube kit for my rifles. Heavy Tar quiets the spring twang as well as lubricating it against the spring and the inside of the receiver.
I have read many fine reviews of Rich's work and products, and had hopped to purchase a spring compressor from him, just after he discontinued selling it ??
I hope this is of some help, I'm sure others will be by with their information .
Welcome to the GTA,
Bill
I've got the Rich from Mich brass top hat, roller thrust bearing and spring guide in my CFX. The difference from original is like night and day. A few people have commented on the roller bearing (what if it breaks up) but as the shock load should be taken directly on the rollers and not the cage, there should not be a problem. Even if a roller did get displaced, it should be retained inside the piston by the top hat. The spring guide fits at the rear of the spring and replaces the slack fitting Gamo part.
The trigger insert is an excellent mod. too, as no doubt is the GRT, from it's reputation.
To answer the question concerning Rich's quality and integrity, they are both A1.
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A Big Welcome Josh.
Be safe and use a spring compressor Josh. Vince was merely pointing out that it could be done without one but for safe disassembly and reassembly use a spring compressor. There are plenty of instructions on how to make one. Do a search on the GTA on spring compressors and you will see plenty of them..:) Do yourself a favor and contact CDT before you purchase any parts from others. CDT specializes in Gamo's and there is no other tuners out there that have the years of experience that he does. I have 13 Gamo's and all have been touched by CDT...:) They all shoot and work fantastic.
Gene
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I've been with Rich at a couple different shoots and he is the first to help with any info and holds nothing back, and has helped me like if I had know him for years............I have the same kit in my bigcat that I did myself with the insert and is night and day from stock............And I have used CDT and Gene's services and glad I have.......I'm up to 6 air guns and there is only 1 that I haven't worked on myself. I just like to do my own work weather its car's, hot rods building mountain bikes................ever since I was a kid my dad said He'd fix it once and after that you tear it up again your on your own so I learned quick, If I wanted a bike to ride.................Troy
As far as a spring compressor I have used the biggest ever on an air gun, a 9000lbs car hoist.................HEHE dont ask
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Hey Great attitude Troy. Hope you are happy with all your toys..:) I know I sure am.. hehe
Gene
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Sure, a proper spring compressor would be nice and convenient, but I'm too lazy to make one and use two 36" Quikgrip clamps instead.
Just squeeze the mainspring with one clamp and squeeze that clamp with the other clamp. Then, you can release each clamp in turn and 'walk' the spring out 1/8" at a time.
I feel that this method is MUCH safer than using your body weight/muscles to compress the spring. Like vinceb says, the BIG risk is having the unit slip out sideways.
I've never had this problem using two clamps.
Hope this helps.
Cheers.
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Thanks Gene....I think that was one of the best things that my dad taught me! Besides I cant stand the thought of paying someone to it when I could do it myself or learn to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I suppose that you might say “here he goes again†and that’s fine with me. That said, my biggest concern is the safety and welfare of both members and guests that read the posts on our forum.
My two biggest safety concerns for our members are the subject of working on a springer without a spring compressor and the use of Slick 50 although Slick 50 has rarely been mentioned here. It was suggested to a person on another forum that advocated and promoted the use of Slick 50 that he refrain from doing so and was told by many of the dangers. He was banned for life after a person was very seriously injured using it. And if it were have happened while the GTA was in existance, he would be banned from here also.
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About the use of or not using a spring compressor. I suggest that you never ever disassemble a springer with few exceptions without using a spring compressor regardless of what other people might say. Many people have been hurt by not using one. It can be very dangerous even if the spring has been preset. You are just asking to get hurt and possibly very seriously. I just shudder every time I see someone post statements like “I never use a spring compressor†or “you can do it without using a spring compressor†or “A spring compressor isn’t really necessaryâ€. Then they might add a “disclaimer†to their statement. It’s like playing Russian Roulette and the first time could be it.
If it were up to me, I would delete every single post that contained comments or statements like that. In my mind, people that make statements like that have no respect or concern for their fellow airgunners safety or health. Its nuts. If they want to do it, let them but please don’t you do it. If you do decide to do it, figure in before you start the cost of eyes, teeth, getting stiched up, emergency services, hospital and doctor costs, possible loss of work to name a few possibilities......just in case.
Simple spring compressors are easy and cheap to make and it’s simply not worth the risk. Please….don’t listen to people that make those suggestions.
Next……………………
The idea of using needle bearing thrust washers in airguns has been around since the dawn of the Springer so it certainly is not new. However, they are seldom or never used and for good reason. First, thrust needle bearings are not usually designed for high pressure impact and usually will not hold up. Needle thrust bearings are usually used where constant and/or consistent rotation is involved and a with a constant light predetermined adjustable preload. Not a constant smashing and crashing impact against it. I have had two guns in over the years where they broke up and literally destroyed the chambers, one in a very expensive gun. And if the bearing breaks up, you can just about bet that the small fragments will get between the piston and the cylinder wall and the tophat will not hold them in. And keep in mind that chances are that you will never even know when it breaks up until your gun begins to act up and fail or the piston is noisy when cocking the gun and the cylinder walls are being chewed up. Besides, if properly done, the difference between night and day can be accomplished not using needle thrust bearing.
Second, they usually are self defeating and although they may help just a bit in making a gun smoother cocking, they can at the same time also increase vibration and oscillation in the spring and have a reduced dampening effect when the gun is fired and cause over rotation as long as they last. In itself, the needle thrust bearing concept could actually be counter productive the guns behavior.
If you stop and think about it, if the needle thrust bearing application were that effective and that good, and with the competition such as it is, airgun manufacturers would use them to improve their products and the cost would be very little for them because of volume, but not so. I wonder why??? Also...I'm not aware of them used in any of the higher end guns. Ever wonder why???
Well known tuners and suppliers of tuning supplies and parts that have been around for years do not offer or suggest them and never use them. I wonder why??? It's pretty well known in the pro tuning industry that a simple grade #8 .25 cent washer that has been polished (that takes a little time) combined with the spring ends being polished is much more preferable, more effective at dampening, while at the same time, greatly reducing rotation and torque, and making for smoother cocking and yet far far less expensive. Makes sense to me!!
I'm sure there might be a couple of people that may argue the point but after I played with it years ago and from the results I've seen by others using them, it’s a very poor choice. I know of only one person selling them for that reason and no experienced pro-tuner that I know of even offers to use them as a part of a tune, and something that I certainly would never ever do as part of a customer tune.
Sorry if I seem to be rambling on or perhaps you get tired of my coming down on some of these things, but it's not for me, it's for you and I just care. I've nothing to gain and I've learned my lessons through out the years.
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CharlieDaTuna - 11/28/2007 5:11 PM
.......I suggest that you never ever disassemble a springer with few exceptions without using a spring compressor regardless of what other people might say. Many people have been hurt by not using one. It can be very dangerous even if the spring has been preset. You are just asking to get hurt and possibly very seriously.
Amen Brother!
1 2x4 from Home Depot $2.98
1 C-clamp cut and mounted to a sturdy 2x4 frame, Harbor Freight $2.00
1 Assorted hardware to assemble it all, Home Depot $3.00
Cost of missing an eye, stitches in chin, busted teeth, and your wife/girlfriend leaving you because you've uglied yourself up and obvously aren't too bright....Priceless!
If spending less than $10 in supplies and a little handiwork is keeping you from building a proper spring compressor, maybe you should save a few more $$$ and let someone else do it. I've taken apart a few small airguns that had very little preload on the spring, and have taken apart big boys like the B30 that have quite a bit more spring, but used a spring compressor for all of them. I think it took me all of an hour to build a sturdy enough spring compressor to take anything apart. I'd just as soon tear into my spring guns without a spring compressor as I would disassemble one of my 3000PSI+ PCP airguns without dumping all of the air. It's just not worth it.
Off soapbox......
The S1K is a pretty good shooter with just a proper lube tune, or at least mine was. Gene will tell ya how they can turn out, he has 4? of them I think, or is it 5? Gene? I grew up as the only boy in a family with 3 much older sisters and a father that passed away when I was real young. I learned early on "If it's broke, you gotta fix it", so I understand the idea of "would rather shoot myself than let someone else do what I can do, or learn to do myself". I actually enjoy working on these things as much, or more than shooting them. It's a great hobby, but you definately have to respect it, things that can go wrong often do go wrong. Dangit, I thought I put my soapbox away for the night......
Take care and be safe!
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I have been convinced that I need a spring compressor to operate on my s1k. But instead of trying to fix up my current one, I bought a used one off of someone. That s1k was listed as with a crown job and lube tune. I still have my super tune kit with lubes/spring/guides and top hat which I might use on the new gun, eventually. Thanks everyone for your imput! And Thanks for looking out for me, I don't want to injure myself as then my parents wouldn't approve of me ever owning any kind of gun again >.<
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Thank you Josh and a wise decision my friend.
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First - Bob, when you say you've seen two guns with destroyed thrust bearings, were these specifically the ones used in the tune kit in question? The reason I'm asking is that needle thrust bearings can indeed be designed for impact loads with intermittent rotation, and Timken specifically states that some of their needle thrust bearings are suitable for shock-loaded applications. Perhaps the most common example is the needle strut bearing used in many front-drive vehicles with McPherson strut suspensions. In this application, they obviously get shock loaded.
If the failed bearings you've seen were not the same ones that are used in the kit, it's possible that those bearings were simply spec'd wrong and that the proper bearings would not have failed. If, on the other hand they were the ones from that kit, then we thank you for bringing this to our attention.
Next...
Bob - when I described a method for servicing a springer without a compressor, I was merely answering a simple question with a straight answer: Can it be done? Yes it can. I am not going to deliberately withhold or falsify information in the hopes that someone will or will not do things a certain way. I gave him the information he seemed to want, and what he does with it is up to him.
Certainly, you are well within your rights to recommend against the procedure. I will not argue the point here except to say that while I have not done several hundred rifles as you have, I've used this procedure probably between 50-100 times and never had anything like a close call. If I had, I certainly would have relayed that information as well. Regardless, you think the procedure is risky and you said so - which is a legitimate purpose of this forum.
Now, as to your statement that "...people that make statements like that have no respect or concern for their fellow airgunners safety or health. Its nuts.", that is a different matter. It is an uncalled for personal attack against myself... and it's the second one from you in a couple of weeks. How you can draw that conclusion from a simple and honest answer to a direct question I cannot understand, especially in light of the fact that we've been acquainted for a few years now.
While your experience with these guns certainly gives credence to your opinion of a mechanical procedure, it does not make you any more fit to judge another man's concerns, motivations, mental condition, or the state of his soul. As I mentioned, this is the second time you said something like this within the past month or two... and frankly, I'm not inclined to wait around for a third.
You are one of the founders of GTA, and in deference to that I'm going to notify Gene that I am to be removed as a moderator of this forum.
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Vince, this is not the first time you have brought up removing compression springs from springers without a spring compressor. One of the biggest concerns that Bob and me have is with safety. Even though you can remove hundreds of air gun springs without a spring compressor does not mean it should be posted as such. You know very well we have many new and young air gunners that join the GTA every day and if they thought you can do it they may try and do it them selves.. This is not good. It is fine that you can remove springs from springers without a compressor. But we ask you and anyone else on the GTA to think of the consequences of some young person or new air gunner that would read your post, and then try it for themselves. Hey what you do is your business but please do not bring this to the GTA. It is not safe. Bob was only doing what was right by posting back to you. I accept your resignation as moderator of the Gamo forum as you have requested.
I personally think that you have made many good contributions to the GTA and your reviews are of great value to many of us.
Gene
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I removed both the front and rear site, but in place of the rear site is a small metal screw that the elevation knob used to rest on. It doesn't impair my shooting, but asthetically it looks bad. Is there an easy way to remove it other than shearing it off at the base? Thanks
You can get 2 nuts that fit on the screw and jam them against each other, and then turn the bottom one and take out the screw.
I gave mines a litle touch with a small liquid butane torch... just a touch, and it came out with a firm, slow turn.
FWIW