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General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : March 25, 2008, 09:52:56 PM

: Swaging pellets
: March 25, 2008, 09:52:56 PM

Hi guys,

 There must be some amongst you who have some experience with bullet swaging, or even pellet swaging. I am starting out in a long trek into terminal ballistics, and have decided thats where I want to specialise....in .177 airgun pellets. The top end of FT AMMO regardsdynamic unbalanceneeds a "kick in the pants" in my opinion. Too much energy loss at the outer limits.

I got some theories that have come from first hand observation of slightly larger air rifle calibre "projectiles", and want to see if it holds true into the smaller .177 cal.

Anyone tried .177 swaging before? Corbin website states they currently have, and havemade .177 "pellet" swaging dies, and the designshave been successful at top competition levels! (did I miss something?....)

Interested to know what knowledge is out there I can assimilate.

regards

GS

: Re: Swaging pellets
: Gene_SC March 25, 2008, 11:05:55 PM

Hi Adam I am pretty sure J, "3n00n (http://../view-profile.asp?action=view&uid=302)" does most of his own bullet swaging on his big bores. He usually has a wealth of information about lead bullets. You might want to PM him and ask some questions. Sure would be great to get a discussion up on this subject. I am sure there are plenty of members who would be interested in the results of your findings. Good luck Gene

: RE: Swaging pellets
: March 26, 2008, 12:48:05 AM

Thanks Gene,

 I did some shooting with the AR6 and also some reading around the subject of airgun accuracy. Terminal Ballistics has taken my fancy. I was lucky enough to get hold of some different types of ammo for the AR6, including the Eun Jin heavies, a handful of Piledrivers and about 80 Daystate varminters. The varminters are to all intents and purposes, 39.5 gr rimfire hollownose slugs pulled off the production line before being assembled in their cases. They are a standard dual diameter bullet, and despite what the current theory says, they were brilliant to say the least. I haven;t had a chance to try out the Piledrivers, just not enough of them until I get a nice opportunity to get some useful data out of them.

The EUN JIN heavies are a heavy traditional design in hard cast lead. Average accuracy is the best I can expect. The lighter JSB offerings perform at lower subsonic velocities as you would expect, with fading energy at long range. This phase of the competition Ar Rifle's trajectory is where I want to concentrate on. And to complicate matters I am going very small bore...... .177 cal.

I just don't know if anyone has been swaging .177 yet, and would like to know. I think there's definite room for a performance leap. I also think (with the exception of the PILEDRIVER in .177 which has been withdrawn for legal concerns there) it hasn't been done yet because in the UK where .177 is so popular, the legal potential problems do not make manufacture viable. Basicallythe rest of the world has tobuy whatthey are sold.

We are also told that the LIGHTWEIGHT waisted Diabolo shape is the most efficient at subsonics for our .177 air rifles. I think everyone has been thinking about the wrong end! A lot happens to the little .177 pellet on its way from the breechto the target and High Muzzle velocities are all fine until you waste all of it due to poor BC and Dynamic instability. Would you try to drive from NY to LA with a parachute tied to you rear fender?

.22 cal is better developed for hunting, and transfer of energy to quarry has been the priority. The better peforming .22 "bullets" I have used have a higher BC.

Target calibre .177 has been stagnating. Mind you the quality of diabolo pellets has improved greatly and it should be mentioned that static imbalance is a thing of the past really. It really is time to progress past Diabolo into more aerodynamic designs. As I said, muzzle energy is now appearing less important to me than retained energy at target, and the whole science that goes along with that.

FT shooters using .177 cal are finding from trial and error which pellet designs work the best for them, and therein lies the key to why, and where to go from here. (slightly cryptic statement here, will clarify later).

SO.......if 300N does stumble upon this thread I will gratefully have a discussion on the subject and if necessary be put right on any misconceptions I might have!!!

I need to get my hands on the dies and tools to try a few designs out. Any recommendations/contacts/suggestions welcomed.

regards

GS

: RE: Swaging pellets
: daved March 26, 2008, 01:11:42 AM

Hey, Adam, this is quick, I know I've seen more on the subject: http://talonairgun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2252  There was quite a discussion awhile back about making pellets, but I'm pretty sure it was all .22 or larger.  Still, there might be some info to be mined there.  

Were the .22 bullets really that good?  I tried pulling some and feeding them to my Talon, but they were too tight for the breech.  Where did you get yours?  Later.

Dave

: RE: Swaging pellets
: March 26, 2008, 01:35:52 AM

Hi Dave,

 yeah any info is good thanks for that link.

 The Daystates I got within New Zealand through a private purchase. Not sure if they are still avaiable, but I am working on a source. The tightness issue seems to be related to lower powered rifles. The AR6 is pushing them out at over 70 ft/lbs. Thats close to rimfire energies, and the bullet just does what it is told. Its exit velocity is down, as is its initial impact point by comparison......but hey downrange it flies as flat to target, if not flatter than anything I have used. Retained energy downrange makes up for reduced muzzle energy.

That issue of friction, is what is concerning most pellet makers, and the Piledriver (which I mistakenly stated was withdrawn from sale in UK,.....and I have just seen them still for sale....DUH!) in both .177 and .22 have splines on the circumference to compensate for that. The rimfire bullets are .223 cal. After a good swish in dishwash liquid and a wax lube, they fly out the barrel fine!

Again my apologies for the mistaken assumtion/bad information on the .177 Piledrivers being withdrawn from sale. they are still available in the UK.

Also another consideration is that the Korean built airguns' barrels seem tolerant of oversize ammo. Partularly in combination with the six shot revolver mag, they make the jump from mag to breech very well.

cheers

Adam

: Friction affects velocity alot.
: 3n00n March 26, 2008, 04:48:59 AM

Bore riders with a good driving band sealgive both accuracy and velocity when they're sized exactly right. In big bore that would be - oh say .001" or so.

`

Bore sizes smaller than about .30" cal,it'd probably be .0005" tolerance, though couldpossibly be evenless.

`

That'd be cost prohibitive,buying swage dies for bothbarrel bore variance and driving band depth. (http://www.airgunhome.com/agforum/images/smiles/ahhhhh.gif)

: RE: Swaging pellets
: Big_Bill March 26, 2008, 05:34:06 PM

Hello Adam,

I had to think way back, to remember those days of bullet swagging. I tried swagging .38 specials, and while I had some success I could not find a supplier to deliver a reliable uniform lead mix of wire. One batch would be soft and the next would be hard, I also found slag and voids in the wire. So I sold my set upand moved on to casting and sizing, which gave me some outstanding results with pistol bullets.

If I were to attempt anything with pellets, I believe attempting to sort and size pellets until Ifound a satisfactory accurate pellet, that groupthe best and run with it...

Bill

: RE: Friction affects velocity alot.
: March 26, 2008, 07:45:53 PM

Thanks for the replies.

Mainly I want to make my own stuff, not going into mass production. I have seen the problems associated with the .177 Piledrivers having to be made in three head sizes, and even then being considered too tight.

I am able to, and quite willing to spend quite a bit setting up something to give a return in results rather than dollars. It is because it is such a difficult calibre to work with that I want to. One particular barrel to shoot out of should cut down variability. And I do believe that swaging, particlularlyrepeat swaging should help with tolerances and consistency right?

BILL: Yeah thats what we do for competitions already. I don't think a 30% acceptably useable return on a tin of the top pellets currently available is good enough. Time will tell if I am wasting time and money. Thanks Bill.

CHEERS

GS

: RE: Swaging pellets
: March 26, 2008, 09:55:20 PM

Dave,

 If you want to try some 40 gr Daystate bullets in .223 (nominal) here's a link to a stateside supplier.

http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/pellets%20daystate.html (http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/pellets%20daystate.html)

good luck with them, I think they are wonderful in my particular .22 air rifle.

GS