GTA

General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : moe1942 June 15, 2008, 03:08:13 AM

: DIY lube
: moe1942 June 15, 2008, 03:08:13 AM

Has anyone mixed moly powder with a high flash point oil to form a paste? The powder I have is pure moly and no graphite. Since my Super Streak turned out to be a non shooter I'm going to use it for experimenting. If I can find a suitable medium to mix with the moly I think it would be ideal for the piston and compression chamber area. I also think a moly dry kote film on the spring would work. I don't like the idea of tar or grease on the spring since that area is open.

: ARH lubes have been used extensively for decades.
: 3n00n June 15, 2008, 05:47:46 AM

There is a reason for that. The reason is that ARH has done the research and testing so the prduct is the most effective available for the price.

`

Spring tar isn't "asphalt", but a blend of adhering lubricant and moly designed to remain on the spring. A one ounce container has lasted me for several dozen springs, and that includes the ones I over did it on, so I had to remove some 'tar' to getthe springto act properly again. Remember that less is better than to much.

`

If you insist on messing with moly, please be careful since molybdenum disulfidehas been known to havesome toxic results.

: RE: ARH lubes have been used extensively for decades.
: SDale June 15, 2008, 08:07:29 AM

I've been making my own Moly paste for a while now. I get my Moly Powder from EBay in 1/4 pound containers in the form of 99.9% pure moly milled to 1-10 micron powder. I mix it with Trinity 25 weight 100% Silicone Shock Oil. I also get that from EBay in 2 ounce bottles.


I usually use Half the container of Moly and add Silicone Oil to it until I get a fairly thick grease. I also add a bit of Powdered Graphite.

I don't measure anything, it's all be feel. But if I were to do it by teaspoon the ratio/recipe would read something like this:

2 tsp. Moly Powder
3/4 tsp. Graphite Powder
3.5 tsp. Silicone Oil
Mix well until blended to a consistent paste
Bake at 350 for....OOPS!!! I got to thinkin of cornbread again!!! hehe

: That'd be some seriously grey cornbread . . .
: 3n00n June 15, 2008, 12:44:01 PM

but it'd shore'nuffbe slicker than a fritter (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif)

: Do I know what spring tar is?
: fisherdude June 15, 2008, 01:41:42 PM

It was my understanding that spring tar was actually a commercial product known as open gear lube. It is a common in heavy industry.   Open gear lube is formulated using a petroleum base grease and asphalt. It is a very stick lubricant designed to stay on gears.   If I am wrong about this, someone please educate me.

: ARH must use a synthetic, if it is gear lube.
: 3n00n June 15, 2008, 04:18:05 PM

I've used alot of gear lube in machine shops I've worked in, and that stuff has slime floating on topwith a very potent 'petrol' smell. The ARH version is rather mild smelling and not slimey at all.

`

It could be a synthetic gear lube, but that stuff is insanely expensive, which might be an evenbetter reason to buy it from ARH in smaller quantities.

: Re: DIY lube
: DanoInTx June 15, 2008, 05:03:02 PM

I dunno what that stuff is, but it sure is tough to brush off your teeth:)

: Yup . . .
: 3n00n June 15, 2008, 05:31:34 PM

but a sammich just shore'nuffain't da same wid'out it (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif)

: RE: ARH lubes have been used extensively for decades.
: moe1942 June 15, 2008, 11:48:37 PM

Well I always have been a maverick. Now that I live on a fixed income and prices are rising faster than the water in Iowa I find that going against the high price of tradition and "how its always been done for decades" is the norm for me..Please excuse me..

I will continue with my research and experimentation now..

: RE: DIY lube
: moe1942 June 15, 2008, 11:59:45 PM

Glad to see others are mavericks also.

I am puzzled by something else though. A friend who is a petroleum engineer says I can use Dow Corning silicone grease as a medium for the moly and only need 1-2% by volume. He said a wee bit of moly goes a long way. I have also seen it said here that silicone in the piston/compression tube area will cause seizeure.

I am a cautious experimentor so I won't rush into this.

 I also read in my research that graphite is not good for what we use it for in air guns. Indicated that it has abrasive properties. The more I read the more confusing it becomes. I have used powdered graphite in doors locks for many years.

I want to calm the fears of one or more here. I plan to use this concoction for my own use and will give it to friends. I do not intend to break decades of tradition or go into competition with those who retail their concoctions..May they live long and prosper.

: RE: DIY lube
: moe1942 June 16, 2008, 01:07:08 AM

Here is the reply from my learned friend. Lubricants are his bread and butter.

Re: Moly mix

-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by moe1942
Ron, I have a sizeable amount of powdered moly. Followed me home when I retired. I would like to make a paste with it to lube air rifle pistons and compression chamber. Can you recommend a suitable medium that withstands high temp and pressure?

I see TS 70 moly but it gets pricey..I'd like to use this free stuff if I can..

Thanks


Moe

I would get a good quality silicone grease, Dow makes several you only need 1-2% of moly in the grease. A little moly goes a very long way.



What I am trying to determine is why the requirement for such a high content moly in air guns other than more is better. As you can see he knows what I intend to use it for. He has always given me good and accurate advice..Maybe I need to ask Paul Harvey..

: RE: Do I know what spring tar is?
: CharlieDaTuna June 20, 2008, 02:18:03 AM

Spring Tar or Heavy Tar is definitely not open gear lube. Not sure where you heard or read that but it is incorrect. Jim spent a long time developing the "Heavy Tar" that is used today in the airgun industry and is the best formula available. I know most of the ingredients and asphalt is not one of them. If the were a better as well as cheaper product, I would know about it and use it. After all these years of working on and tuning airguns, I have found that there is nothing better and if the lubing is done properly with the right lubes in the right places, a springer can go for years without being lubed again and the life of the gun extended dramatically.

Heavy Tar will reduce the velocity but how it is applied and what geographical area of the country it is used in plays a significant part. The colder the climate, the less needed. The normal loss wouldn't be more the 10-15 fps in most cases.

 Also... using a moly blend or silicone oil  blend of lube on a spring is almost useless, and in fact can be detrimental to not only the spring life but also consistency of the velocity. It has no value regarding the spring vibration or the harmonics created and has little or no dampening effect. Silicone oil is of very little use in a springer airgun with the exception of being used as part of a combination lube used in leather seal guns.

Just my opinion based on many years and guns experience.

: RE: DIY lube
: Big_Bill June 20, 2008, 06:25:01 AM

Hey Gerit,

Your friend my know what you are using it on, but does he know the insides of an airgun. The forces in play, the heat that builds up inside the compression chamber ? etc. or how long this percentage will last ?

Bob is the MAN when it comes to airguns, and he has years of practice working on them. If he recommends 70% molly, I'm sure he has a reason for it !

If you wish to "experiment", that's O.K., but until you have some success, like 3 - 4 years of faithful service, I'll stick with the advice Bob has so kindly offered to us. :)

Bill

: RE: DIY lube
: moe1942 June 20, 2008, 06:40:54 AM

Being new to this sport I started this thread in order to dialogue and find out what is used, why and where. It wasn't then and it is not now my intent to upset tradition. Tuning and modifying air guns is well within my capability and I will continue to pick  brains as much as I can.  I will come up with my own concoctions after thorough research into the subject. I have always been a maverick and as things progress technically I feel there is always a way to improve or replace. I'll just keep my recipes to myself since I'm the new guy here and don't want to *_*_*_*_*_* everyone off..

If anyone has their own ideas or  thoughts on the subject please PM me. I'm open to anything.. I'll get back with my engineer friend and tell him what Charlie passed on. Maybe he doesn't understand the nature of the action in an air gun.. I questioned the silicone paste myself..

I appreciate all of the input..My speciall thanks to those who have already pm'd me.

The censored word was four letters beginning wit p and ending in s.. Me thinks I should have lurked a tad longer..

: RE: DIY lube
: Big_Bill June 20, 2008, 07:07:32 AM

My point Gerit, is knowing all the parameters for the use is very important. Improvements happen all the time, that's how we went from leather to synthetic seals ! When CDT responds to a post, he is offering information gained from years of experience and experimentation. I hold that experience dear to me, and would never discount it for someone that is not an experienced Airgun Smith.

You, and anyone are more than welcome to experiment, as I myself and many do ! And your successes will be greatly appreciated. I'm just trying to point out, that he, your friend, may not realise all the crazy parameters that are found in the humble airgun.

I didn't post to put you down, just to point out the variables in the airgun, and how golden Bob's guidance is.

Bill

: Re: DIY lube
: Gene_SC September 16, 2008, 12:19:53 AM

Hey Gerit, many people use different lubes for there tunes but the springer air gun  industries standard lubes are the generally what most of us by from JM. Other's tend to experiment and find there own magic mixture..:) I feel that since the heavy tar and moly has been used by professional tuners for many years why re-invent the wheel.. hehe. Everyone on the GTA has there own opinion whether it be right or wrong, they still have an opinion. :)

How about some pictures or more info on what you have for a collection. Do you hunt or plink or both?...:)

Gene

: Re: DIY lube
: RedFeather September 16, 2008, 12:43:03 AM

Sometimes DYI can be a false economy.  Kind of like what old John Ruskin said:

"It is unwise to pay too much, but it is unwise to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you loose a little money; that is all.
When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything.
Because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot.
It cannot be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

At JM's prices, his proven lube is hard to beat.

: RE: DIY lube
: Bhawanna September 16, 2008, 01:02:57 AM

moe,
have you tried using chainsaw chain lube as a medium?....it has "sticky" characteristics.....just another idea for you to play with....

: RE: DIY lube
: tinbender September 16, 2008, 06:21:39 AM

Moe it might be that some are concerned experimenting might harm your'e gun. It sounds like you have thought through the risks and accepted them.You already know but will say it anyway Be Safe:)

The most important part of any tinkering is that Pass or Fail you come away with a better understanding of what is doing what. I think failed projects in general have taught me as much as sucsessful ones:)

Good Luck on you

Tinbendin' Dave

: RE: DIY lube
: TCups September 16, 2008, 08:40:09 AM

On reading what is out there about air gun lubricants, it is apparent that the lubricants in modern springers serve two purposes:  lubrication and "fuel".  In microscopic amounts, with a properly cross-hatched compression tube, some lubricant will find its way into the compression chamber ahead of the piston.  Limited dieseling improves the power and velocity of a springer.  In excess, though, dieseling to the point of white smoke or even occasional detonation occurs.  A single detonation is potentially capable of snapping even the best spring. Without proper lubrication, velocities drop and metal on metal wear with damage can result in a very short time.  Non-petroleum based, silicone lubricants will not serve the purpose of providing fuel to higher powered springers. When you experiment with lubricants, you must understand that the right lubricants in the wrong amounts or the wrong lubricants can seriously affect the performance of an air rifle and, indeed, even cause serious damage to a springer after even one or two shots.  Further, lubricants are susceptible to age, temperature, and gravity.  Stand a springer on end for too long, for example, and the lubricants may work their way down to the trigger end of the tube and do no good. So, since for less than half the cost of a single replacement spring, I can purchase enough of the time-tested springer lubricants from ARH to last me an airgunning lifetime, I don't feel the need to experiment with new lubricants.  Instead, my time has been spent in learning the techniques of getting the right amounts in the right places.  But if you do experiment with "new" or DIY lubricants, just be careful and realize that you can potentially damage an air rifle, particularly a springer, if you get it wrong. When in doubt, less is probably more.

: RE: DIY lube
: kiwi September 16, 2008, 08:04:36 PM

HI ..Moe  that line of thought is the reason we no longer live in caves.
Most fail but enough don't.
I can't get all these fange dangle  lubs down here I make do
with grease with a few drops of a friction reducing additve mixed in.

: RE: DIY lube
: TCups September 16, 2008, 10:24:03 PM

Yikes!  Garit - no one takes any offense whatsoever at what you may suggest or ask about.  Lots of tinkerers and plenty of experimenters here on the GTA.  Several master craftsmen, too.  We are all somewhere on our own learning curve.  So please don't feel like you have to lurk or else risk having some know-it-all PO'ed with you.  That isn't the case at all.  All new guys and their questions and comments are welcome here.  Folks are just trying to give you the best advice they can.

If you can find a copy of Cardew's "The Airgun from Target to Trigger" it has a wealth of practical and technical information on airguns.  And lubrication is a whole science unto itself that I for one can't pretend to come close to understanding completely.

: Re: DIY lube
: bil601 September 19, 2008, 11:37:32 AM

Figured I would put in my two cents. I am sure at one point there were other lubes that were the best now there is Vel tar. moly, and so on.  Look at it from a historical point there is always something better. One lube fits all? With all the differant designs, seal materials, spring steels, & poweer ranges. What might be great for one gun may not be best for another. I would think mechcanical spring dampening with better guides & spring sleeves are better than a gob of tar. How about a hard rubber & plastic coating on the spring . Tar & grease get stiff when cold. I use rubber dampeners on my bow sting not tar. I know apples & oranges, but its still a twang.

: RE: DIY lube
: moe1942 September 20, 2008, 03:51:43 AM

The owner of a forum I frequent is a petroleum engineer and he has given me some good ideas. I always go against conventional wisdom and prefer to find good lubes that are readily available rather than rely on someone who will take his secret formula to the grave. Seems I have a knack for treading in taboo areas..

Put a big grin after that last sentence..Can't seem to find them...