GTA
PCP - HPA - C02 Gate => PCP DarkSiders Forum => : Remo August 09, 2008, 10:58:23 AM
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Got the bug to upgrade my air rifle shooting after 20 years with a .177 Beeman C1 springer. Did some reading and initially thought I would like to move to a gas ram, but nothing beats a test drive. So, after some lurking and a lot of reading, I gave the guys at Cobra Air Guns a call and spent an afternoon with them trying out different rifles. What an experience!!!
I was right about the C1. A couple of shots over the chronograph showed it was firing in the mid 600 fps range, quite a decrease from its rated power of 800-830 fps ( even after allowing for light pellets). That sealed it, a new rifle is definitely in order. But forget the gas ram. Too hard to cock and too powerful for my 25 ft. basement range. Not interested in more springers. But hmmm, what about those PCP guns I've been reading about? The guys at Cobra set me up with a scoped Talon SS to shoot as well as getting a taste of some BSA rifles and the FX Cyclone. Incredible accuracy, quiet, no recoil, powerful. Also adjustable power in some models. Perfect for the basement target range on low power and higher power for pests as appropriate. What a change from my aging, tempermental, hold-sensitive springer.
So when the dust settles and the smoke clears it looks like PCP is the way to go. So I do some more reading and come across some other models like the Logun S-16 and the Air Arms S400, S410, etc.
Also considering the tradeoff between pumping and scuba. Tried out a pump at Cobra, broke a nice sweat but it wasn't easy to judge effort since there was air leakage somewhere and that pumping effort never filled the gun! But at least I got an idea of how physical the pump can be. Got no idea about scuba tanks, convenience, cost, or how many scuba shops are available for fills & maintenance.
What to do?
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Welcome to the dark side . The pumping in not bad up to 2000 PSI after 2500 psi it gets tough. It depends allot on how much you shoot and the shot count of the rifle as to wither it will bother you much . I pumped my Discovery until I bought my big bore and it was not a issue. The tanks are not too bad unless you get into the 4500 psi range which you might have to with some on the rifles you are looking at . Go to air hog and look at his site . If you click on metal tanks there is a calculator there that will help you see how many rifle fill you will get out of a tank . Check with your local scuba shops mine charged $5 a fill but to get a complete fill you need to drop the tank off and leave it for several hours . I'm sure others will speak about the rifles you are looking at . I have no experience with them .Marvin
http://www.airhog.com/
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I guess the question I would ask is how much do you shoot? If not a lot (kind of like me) a pump would be the cheaper way to go, plus you get the free workout. Also find out about dive shops and their willingness to fill your tank BEFORE you plunk down $400+. That would suck to have a nice 4500 psi carbon fiber tank and no where or no one to fill it. You said you went to Cobra AG. Talk with them. They might be able to direct you to air gunner friendly dive shops in your area within a reasonable drive. Just because they are a dive shop and can fill your tank doesn't mean they will. The Air Arms 400/410 series are great guns. I really like the adjustable power feature, that doesn't require the removal of the stock. I have a AA 410 ERB and it is very accurate and VERY quiet when turned all the way down. Perfect for indoor shooting. Doesn't use the air as fast, and easier on targets, traps and back stops. I thought the Logun S-16 was discontinued? I don't know anything about it or where it's available.
Hope this helps some
Regards
Nathan
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Years ago I used to shoot all the time in the basement range. That slowed, but I've recently rediscovered my air rifle and pistol and am spending a whole lot more time shooting again. I've started heading downstairs to punch paper while the Wife has other important business that doesn't require my oafish assistance. Works out pretty well for both of us!
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Hi HINTS, can you mention a few of those PCP rifles that require the need to remove the stock to adjust the power......I would like to avoid those.
I too have a AA 410S carbine....in .22, a fantastic air rifle. I also have a BSA Scorpion T10....which I like dearly...also in .22. My next purchases would be in .177.....most likely a FX Cyclone and/or a Webley Raider 10. Notice that all my choices for PCP's are repeaters.....my thinking is that if I have a constant air supply....why stop to reload.
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You know your needs better than we do . But if you just want to shoot in the basement you might look at some 10 meter rifles . There are some single pump daisy's out there that would save you a bunch of money .Or some really expensive PCP 10 meter rifles as well . Marvin
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I've owned 2 Talon SS's, still have one. I recently traded the other one on an Air Arms S400E, the older non adjustable power model. This is a .177 and it will launch 16 gr. Eun Jins at almost 900 fps, that's 27 fpe! Much as I like my Talon, I love this 400, it's quiet, powerful, and incredibly accurate. It also has a fantastic trigger. The new ones are supposed to be even quieter, and the adjustment range on the power is crazy, something like 500-1100 fps in .177. I'd highly recommend any of the AA 4XX series, especially for a first PCP. And I wouldn't recommend a Talon for a first PCP. Even though it was my first, and I think they're great little guns, they require a fair amount of tinkering and adjusting to get them dialed in, and you also just about have to have a chronograph to do it. Not familiar with BSA or FX other than by hearsay, but pretty much all I've heard has been good. No experience with the S-16 either, but I've done some research on it, was considering one myself. The consensus is, it's heavy, temperamental, has lots of orings that are prone to leakage, and is pretty expensive for what you get. Nor does it have adjustable power. Unless you just have to have a tactical looking repeater, I'd stay with one of the AA's.
Regarding feeding a PCP, there is another alternative. I fill my guns from an industrial nitrogen cylinder, the one I get is 443 cu. ft. at 4500 psi. I shoot a lot, and I shoot multiple guns, and each cylinder still lasts me 6 months. Cost for gas is about $60 and tank rental is $11 a month. This may not work for everyone, not all gas suppliers handle this particular cylinder, and it may not be the best choice for all guns. Since I started with a Talon, which has a large tank at high pressure, I didn't want to pump. But scuba tanks weren't a good option either. It's a 100 mile round trip to the nearest place I could get one filled, they want $12 a fill, and the Talon would only get 6-8 fills per tank. I've been known to shoot more than that in a day, never mind a weekend or the entire week :-). So the N2 cylinder is the way to go for me. The main down side is lack of portability, but most of my shooting is in my own back yard, and even when I'm away, I pretty much never shoot up an entire tank. I do have a small CF tank, and one of these days I'll set things up so I fill that from the big cylinder, and fill my guns from the CF tank. Just haven't gotten around to it yet. Hope that's some help, and if you have any more questions, you're in the right place :-). Later.
Dave
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A new PCP rifle opens up some chances for some new fun. I'm thinking of giving field target shooting a try too.
Eric
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Well gamo2, going off memory which has been known to fail me... The only ones I'm aware of that adjust with out removing the stock are: some of the FX guns, the AA 400/410 (any older AA pre charged w/ the Pomona Air aftermarket adjustment screw installed), the Theoben Rapid /Beeman Super series (the adjuster screw can be accessed through the cutout in the pistol grip), the Korean guns (Career and Samyang) that have an adjuster wheel in front of the trigger guard, and the Air Force Talon line. I'm sure I missed at least one. Many PCP's adjust the power by changing the tension on the hammer spring, but that usually requires taking off the stock and accessing a/the screw. Most people don't adjust them leaving them at high power.
regards
Nathan
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Thanks for the feedback. I liked the Talon SS when I tried it out, but it also felt like my head was bent over way too far in order to shoot the gun. Maybe the rings that we threw on the gun for test purposes could have been higher, but I sure do prefer a wood stock anyway. I'm leaning towards the AA S400 series. Can't decide yet on whether I want to go multi or single shot, but that's a problem I can live with.
Eric
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Mine have all been single shot to date, but the next will definitely be a repeater. Much as I'd love a 410, I doubt I'll get that lucky twice in a row, so I suspect I'll be trading off my remaining Talon on an S200. Which is one I forgot to mention earlier, but you might want to do some research. The S200 is actually made by CZ for Air Arms, it started life as a 10M match rifle. As a .177, it's basically a 12 fpe or so gun, but in .22 can reach somewhere around 20 fpe. It's compact, light, quiet, and very accurate, and you can purchase a retrofit kit for it that turns it into a 10 shot repeater. Now that I think about it, for your purposes, it might just be perfect. There are a couple of different models, target and sporter, the only real difference is in the stock. The latest model, which isn't out yet, has a one piece stock. The beauty here is, you can buy the single shot S200 for under $600, then down the road if/when you decide you want a repeater, the kit is just under $100.
Regarding the Talon, I have mine set up with a Tri Rail and the tallest rings I can find, some cheap Leupold rimfire rings from Wally World that are even taller than the Accushot high rings. That lets me keep my head up, and I have the added advantage of see through rings. With this setup, my scope height is 3.7", with a Simmons 44 Mag 6.5-20x44. Contrast that with my S400 at 1.9" with a Hawke 4-16x50 in Accushot high rings. That does some weird things to your trajectories :-), but it works with the Talon. Hope that helps.
Dave
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Thanks. Good idea to confirm dive shop access before making the scuba investment. Now that I've actually decided to BUY something, its hard to keep that itchy mouse finger under control and keep doing the necessary homework.
Eric
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All I can say is if you get a repeater.....you'll end up shooting more in each session.(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif) Which is a good thing..... No need to take the gun off your shoulder, reload and aim...just keep the scope on target, cock and fire until the clip's out of ammo.
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Those repeaters sure do tempt me. I'm dialing up the financial courage to spring for an AA S400 or S410. I'm leaning towards the S410 except that I've read a lot of cautions to avoid using flathead pellets, my favorite paper punching kind, in repeaters. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?
Eric
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Might want to check this out, Eric: http://www.straightshooters.com/ourtake/ot400410erb.html Look for the special note toward the bottom of the page. The only repeater I've owned was an IZH 61, and it has a totally different mag system, it would shoot anything. Also, from personal experience, I've yet to find a PCP that shoots wad cutters well. I'm on my fourth, and they all scatter WC's around the target. I suspect that's a velocity/range issue, I'm usually shooting in the 900 fps or higher range, and at 30 yards or more. Not exactly match pellet territory :-). Hope that helps.
Dave
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Yeah, that was one of the cautions that I read earlier. Some indicate that it's a problem with pellet feeding, others express concern that some flathead pellets are damaging to seals/O-rings. Sounds like single shot might be the way to go.
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On the S400/S410 the pellets slide across the breach o-ring because it's in the breach area of the barrel rather than on the bolt. My guess is wadcutters would rub this area in a little harsher way, but then wadcutters aren't going to group all that well at much above 600-700fps, so you're looking at roundnosed pellets from many PCP's anyways. Even my 12fpe S400C will spit them out pretty fast, mostly beyond wadcutter accuracy. There are some heavy wadcutters like the RWS Supermags that may slow the gun down enough to group well, but they'd still drag across that o-ring. JSB Exact roundnose pellets group beautifully in my S400, you only get one hole anyways, why use a wadcutter and make it bigger:)
As for the first PCP debate....I've owned two Chinese PCP's, one FX Black Widow, one TalonSS, one AA S400C, one Korean Career 707 II, one Korean Sumatra Carbine. So far the Air Arms guns are tough to beat. I have shot quite a few others and as far as repeaters go I really like the biathalon cocking on the FX Gladi8tor, Cyclone, etc....... The Air Arms repeaters I've shot I didn't find incredably smooth, but the single shot version I have is really smooth. The new side lever S410's might be pretty smooth and easy to handle, but I haven't shot one....yet!
Pump or bottle depends on a few things like how much you shoot, your general health, etc.... I pump and don't mind it at all, but then I don't shoot 2000 rounds everyday...I'm more like 100 rounds a week at most.
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Thanks guys,,,I didn't knowthat the Wad Cutters could damage the o-rings in the AA 410s. I've almost gone through 500 rounds (.22 Daisy Wadcutters bought at Walmarts) between my BSA Scorpion T10 and Air Arms 410s.....at 10 meters they're pretty accurate. I haven't shot further so I can't say if the flatheaded pellets would stay it's course. When I'm done with the flatheads I'll stay with the domes (Crosman Premiers).
The AA 410S that I got have a very easy cocking side lever.....can cock it with just one finger. The bolt action Scorpion T10 requires abit more strength to cock.
I shoot about 60 to 80 rounds in a session...about every 2nd day.....on the day that I happen to choose a PCP....I need to pump it up twice....75 strokes for a 200 BAR for 40 to 50 shots. Not too much of a hassle....but I do work up abit of sweat. I usually pump 40 strokes and take a small break (30 sec. (recommended by the pump instructions....I think it's to avoid heating up the pump which will heat up the air)) and pump the rest.