GTA

General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Hunting Gate => : raterminator August 18, 2008, 03:02:39 PM

: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 18, 2008, 03:02:39 PM

and everybody else who is interested in permit form. Based on Jonathan’s permit sample, I made my own permit form for your consideration. If it sounds OK, you can just print out this PDF file http://www.visualexpression.com/permit.pdf (http://www.visualexpression.com/permit.pdf) If you have any corrections and/or suggestions, especially in the game kinds, feel free to correct me. Garen

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: longislandhunter August 18, 2008, 04:39:26 PM

Looks like a good form Garen,,,, nice job....

Jeff

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: shadow August 18, 2008, 09:53:06 PM

Present that form to some farmer's and it may open the door for alot of hunting.:) As Jeff said, look's good. Ed

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: only1harry August 19, 2008, 01:51:31 AM

Thanks Garen!

That's a nice straightforward landowner's consent form you prepared. Much appreciated.

In the end though I think it depends more on your personality and how you present yourself to the farmer/landowner, but a good piece of paper to bring along always helps!

thanks!
Harry

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 19, 2008, 03:46:24 AM

Glad you like it guys, but I think it still needs some polishing. Maybe it is not a good idea tospecify the game names and limit other possibilities. What about, let's say, rabbits, raccoons, opossums or gray squirrels? What if it’s not a pest, but small game hunting? Help me to make the first part more “politically correct”. Garen

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: hodgjy August 19, 2008, 05:11:23 AM

I'm coming from the side of the landowner with my opinions here.  If you are the landowner, and agree to let hunters on your land, these recommendations may help.  If you are a hunter looking for land, you definitely don't want to draw up a contract like the one I'm recommending.  Stick with the example listed above.

I also agree that it needs some polishing.  Since it's a contract, you have to be clear about what it includes and also what it excludes.  You say that the hunter assumes all responsibility for damage and injury.  You should also say that the landowner has no responsibility for injuries to the hunters or their equipment.  It's also important to somehow word that the landowner is not responsible for the hunter's actions in case laws would be broken.  You have to somehow waive all your responsibility for anything bad that happens due to the hunters, but at the same time, make the hunters liable for anything bad they do.

You may also want to have a section declaring that the hunter has the required documents demonstrating a hunter's safety course and all needed licenses to hunt.

You may also want to put a section declaring that the hunter will only use legal arms and ammunition.  It's also important to have a section that has the hunters declaring that their arms are in good working condition.  I've seen cases happen where landowners get sued because someone else's equipment failed on their land.

Also put in a point that states the hunters will not climb trees, modify the property, jump over fences, etc, etc, for whatever fits the land description.  It's also important to specify that the landowner will not be present during the hunt and the hunters agree to hunt at their own risk.

Letting people hunt on your land is a sticky subject because many local/county/state ordinances say the landowner is responsible for all actions that take place on the land.  This is actually how a lot of criminals get convicted--not because of hard evidence, but because of circumstantial evidence on something happening on their land.  Just ask Michael Vick about it and his dog fights.

You'd hope that all hunters are good people, are respectful, and obey the laws.  But, you have to cover your butt in case something bad happens.  Contracts are lengthy deals, but they're necessary to outline all responsibilities.   You need to put in everything that you think is important, and it needs to be worded as clearly and specific as possible.  Have you ever read an apartment lease?  Those are about 10 pages long.

Maybe this is overkill, but if you're going to make guest hunters sign a contract, you might as well do it right.  

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: hodgjy August 19, 2008, 05:23:10 AM

Forgot another point:

It's also important to state that the landowner reserves the right to ask hunters to leave at any point, even if that is before the agreement is set to expire.

If you really want to get technical and cover your butt for anything, put in a clause that says the landowner's rights are retroactively protected after the agreement expires.

If you really, really, really, want to get sticky, put in a clause that the hunters agree to pay all legal fees and actual damages if landowner needs to collect compensation for any damage or injury to property or landowner.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: GoodOlRWS45 August 19, 2008, 06:43:32 AM

I like it!  It should make the property owner feel all warm and fuzzy, at least enough to give you permission.   Just make sure you have it in your posession at all times when hunting.  In the area I hunt in I'll wind up half a mile away from my truck and the security patrols don't like to take my word for it, that I have permission, nor the idea of giving me a ride back to my truck to get the proof.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 19, 2008, 08:16:41 AM

Jay, I don't get it!!! Whose friend are you, hunters' or landowners'? Just kidding(http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif)

Indeed, you got some very interesting points. I'll try to fit some of them on one piece of paper. I'm sure you know that most people don't like to read annoying fine prints, I personally don't, unless I have to. And what you're suggesting to put on that paper could have a backfiring effect. Some would read it and some will say they're not interested. We have to keep it readable and as simple as it possible. It's good to cover all ends, but if I put down all you're suggesting, somebody would hold hunters liable for something they didn't even do. This could be very tricky. Don't you think?

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: hodgjy August 19, 2008, 08:38:24 AM

Yes, very tricky.  I'm definitely on the side of the hunters.  When I first read the hunter's agreement, I first thought you were writing it from the position of the landowner, not the hunter.  I thought you were a landowner and were willing to share your land with hunters.  Obviously, this was the opposite, so, I went back and put a disclaimer in my post.  You definitely do not want to put too many things in a contract you are pitching to a landowner, especially if they limit your rights and enjoyment at all.  

As a hunter, I think your agreement is good.  It shows consideration, care, respect, and responsibility.  It will certainly increase success at gaining hunting position.  From the landowner's side--which I admit I was wrong to think that was the angle you were first coming from--you definitely want a water tight agreement.  One of my good buddies leases (that's right, leases) hunting land for hunting deer during both bow and powder burning seasons.  The lease he signs is seriously about 6 pages long--much like an apartment lease.  It stipulates everything from where he can park, the hours he can hunt, blah, blah, blah, he basically has no rights if he gets hurt or dies....blah!!

So, it's a double edged sword.  Many of us airgunners own land and are willing to share it with other hunters, so we have to protect our property and rights.  However, many of us airgunners are looking for land to hunt on.  I'm under the belief that most hunters out there are very respectful, caring, and responsible stewards of the land.  However, a gentleman's handshake doesn't hold much water in court these days.  With frivolous lawsuits popping up all over the place for the dumbest reasons, it's good to protect yourself.  

I was also thinking a little bit--perhaps inspired by my first misinterpretation of this thread-----  Say, you approach a landowner with your hunter's agreement form.  He/she might look over it and then decide (like I did) that there needs to be more clauses in the contract protecting him/him.  Would it be better to not even give the idea to a willing landowner about such a contract when he/she might just let you hunt there anyway?

I'm not sure.

It's an interesting conversation.  I don't know the answer.  But I'm coming from the angle of wanting my cake and eating it, too.  I want to be gain permission from willing landowners to hunt without many stings attached, but if I owned land I would want an ironclad contract protecting me from having my arse sued off in court for something that the hunter did or something that happened to the hunter.

I think in the end, if you're aware of both sides of the situation, you'll have much success in getting permission to hunt in lots of places.  You want to show respect to the landowner, but you also don't want to put too many ideas in the landowner's head about setting up a contract to hunt.  For instance, if a hunter presented me a contract to hunt on my land, I'd probably be inclined to put a few of my own clauses in there since the hunter was already in the mood to have a contract in the first place.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: hodgjy August 19, 2008, 09:06:43 AM

If I were approaching a landowner of some nice acres I wanted to hunt, I'd probably add the following below to your original agreement form.  Like I said before, you want to show initiative, responsibility, and respect, but you don't want to put too many ideas into the landowner's head.

I, the hunter (undersigned), promise to respect the landowner (undersigned) and property by:

1) Only hunting in areas pre-designated by the landowner for me to occupy.

2) Assuming all responsibility for any of my own potential injuries or death that I may suffer while on said property.

3) Assuming responsibility for any damages that I may have unintentionally caused to the property.

4) Making every effort to prevent littering and fire.

5) Declaring my hunting arms are in good working order without defect.

6) Following all published local, state, and federal hunting regulations.

7) Making every effort to humanely harvest all game and to faithfully track all game casualties.

8) Acknowledging that the landowner can revoke this agreement at anytime with prior notification.


I think this is a more clear, concise agreement.  It's more precise about what we can say about "safety" and "sportsmanship."  It also have enough to make the landowner feel pretty good about things, but it also doesn't put a lot of restrictions on yourself that may limit your fun and hunting chances.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: GoodOlRWS45 August 19, 2008, 09:44:58 AM

I think it depends on who the property owner is...What I mean is, the document I drafted was in response to what the property owners i know, wanted.  Since I was using an air rifle, which is a very limited threat to property, and was approaching it from the standpoint of pest control, not for the  purpose of hunting, they felt like I was doing THEM a favor for letting me hunt, not the other way round.  

Whatever the case may be, these days you have to cover your butt.  If I didn't know the property owners I was approaching, I would definetely draft a more detailed document, such as the ones posted, and now, after thinking about it, may redo mine, or even use one of these.

Thanks

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 19, 2008, 11:48:11 AM

OK, I’ll make another draft including some of the suggestions, except the points from 4 to 7 which have nothing to do with landowner, but must be obeyed by every hunter regardless where he is hunting; on public lands or private. I assume that we are talking here about people who carry hunting licenses and are familiar with basic hunting rules and ethics. I don’t want it to sound like an official juridical document, especially when it’s not such and especially that we're talking about an airgun hunting only.
I agree with Jonathan's point too; one thing when it is a pest control and another if it’s small game hunting during the regular hunting season. The form should be more flexible and cover both possibilities. That’s why I asked for suggestions for the first part of my draft about game name limitations. For example, in some cases you can consider the rabbit as a pest, but mostly it's small hunting quarry.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: Big_Bill August 19, 2008, 01:54:42 PM

Hello,

I just looked up Hunting Farmer Hunting Agreements, and came upon this:

http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-0541/ (http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-0541/)

It might help ?

Bill

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: only1harry August 19, 2008, 02:32:29 PM

Good stuff guys.  I like the latest version too outlining things one by one instead of paragraphs..  and I agree we should not throw too much in there and give the landowners more ideas or make it complicated.
 
I was always planning on presenting "them" with a pest control offer using airguns only.  In no way was I thinking of asking them to "hunt" on their property or without making mention of airguns.  They probably get asked that often especially before the hunting season begins.  If pest control with airguns goes well for me and the farmer/land owner and I start getting along and things are looking good, then I was planning on eventually asking if I could do some hunting in the winter (hunting season) and perhaps use a .22LR, etc.  Don't think I 'll have to since I have an 80ft-lb Condor that's close to a .22LR rimfire.

: Re: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 19, 2008, 03:25:50 PM

Thanks Bill, that’s a good link.
See how simple the “Sample Hunting Access Permit” is. I’m going to mix it with mine.

: Re: For Harry and Jonathan,
: GoodOlRWS45 August 19, 2008, 05:19:07 PM

I was reading this book when I came up with the idea for my draft.  While written for Californians, it still offers valuable insight on several aspects of airgun hunting.  I'm sure you've all read it, but I didn't find it until about 6 months ago.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: GoodOlRWS45 August 19, 2008, 05:21:20 PM

Once again, I couldn't upload a file due to limited size requirements...I find the link and post it here  later.

: Re: For Harry and Jonathan,
: GoodOlRWS45 August 19, 2008, 05:25:29 PM

http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/airguns/airgunhunt.pdf

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: hodgjy August 20, 2008, 03:11:51 AM

It's a slippery slope with landowner rights.  I put in points 4-7, which may or may not be needed as you pointed out, because some local/state laws make the landowner liable for all actions that take place on the land.  For example, if the landowner knowingly allows people to hunt illegally, the landowner is also guilty of a crime.  I put those points in to protect the landowner.

: RE: For Harry and Jonathan,
: raterminator August 21, 2008, 03:46:26 PM

I found a couple of other forms and after comparing/adding/changing them came out with this one: http://www.visualexpression.com/permit.pdf (http://www.visualexpression.com/permit.pdf)
It looks good to me.