GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => The Shop => : rojoshb August 26, 2008, 11:14:34 PM
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I have switched this to the shop for technical reasons. Here's the deal. Most of the available info on m/bs is coming from the powder gun world, and there are many designers and manufacturers of thes devices.There is also a great deal of hard data to prove their worth as muzzle flip and recoil reducers as well as some data on improved accuracy. What we don't have as airgunners is enough viable info or data to support whether or not m/bs are that effective. Ther are several people producing m/bs in this country, but I haven't seen any scientific data to support their claims of reduced muzzle flip or recoil. I realize that the most effective recoil reduction is on large caliber or varmint rifles, but we as airgunners need to get the data together for our own benefit. I had gotten some info from the english sites, but lost it due to a bot attack on this p/c and dummy did not back up h/d, so will have to remember at my young age "64" where I got it from. Anyway this could be a major deal for info if everyone will help. I will continue to post data as i gleen it and will attempt to be reasonable with the technicality since all of us ain't engineers. THANX B
Any worthwhile info will help, and data or graphs will do wonders for design and manufacter as I will post all data on same for all users.
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No hard data on muzzle flip, but empirically, this would seem to be a minimal benefit compared to the barrel motion due to spring bounce, at least in springers. Perhaps the PCP crowd shooting at higher velocities with heavier pellet weights and free-floating barrels might have insight. The main benefits I see are aesthetics, better mechanical leverage for brake barrel springers, and protection of the finish on the barrel crown. As for muzzle flip, again empirically, one would think that the extension would need to be ported on the top side only to counteract this. Most of the available products out there I see are not.
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Just like TCups said... Not much of a counteraction for Muzzle Flip.
BUT, a muzzle brake can add weight to a butt heavy rifle and enhance it's accuracy due to the better balance. Also, if a MB was made with an air stripper, it could poteentially strip away any turbulent air from the pellet skirt as it left the barrel in turn enhancing accuracy. If I'm not mistaken, the Umarex compensator for the 850 Air Magnum has an air stripper built in. Once I get mine, I'd be able to report any changes in accuracy once it's installed.
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The id of a MB designed to reduce flip on an airgun would have to be very close to the ID of the barrel, in order to capture and redirect what little pressurized gas comes out the muzzle. Which is usually not the case.
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I agree and there is nada info from the designers. I contacted el gamo and got the blah blah and they swear their brakes are beneficial, but, of course will provide no info. There does seem to be some accuracy effect, albeit minimal and we know a good tune will provide more accuracy and less vibration and twang, but lots of airgunners don't want to put out the over 100 bucks for the tune. I will continue to work it out until I have a viable product with data, as such. THANX B
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The dude I contacted in england said he didn't think it would work on a break barrel, but wished me good luck. THANX B
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I have found two distinct designs that appear to be viable. As you state the m/b id does need to near the barrel o/d for effectiveness, and there is a critical dimension for the exit hole dia. and thickness of the cap. The exit hole should be bout 1 mm to 1.2 mm over projectile size. The cap should also be no more than .250 thick as this will affect accuracy.
The other design states the bore hole should be 1mm to 1.2mm all the way through with several 18 degree angled holes near the muzzle and a bunch of holes on a 2 degree helix to vent gases with a 35 degree exit ramp.
I agree the upper vents will reduce flip, but don't yet have the formula for design and manufacture, so am going to purchase several types of brakes and put on adapters for mounting on my various guns. Most of my stuff shoots 845 to 915 fps consistantly, so I have a good base.
Ther also is a critical distance the brake needs to extend from the end of the muzzle, so will adjust for best accuracy as well. Distance is bout 2.250+/- This will be somewhat adjustable bout .250 +/-
THANX FOR INPUT B will keep at it.
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Oh, by the by. I ain't a quitter and ain't to dumb either so will persist till we have accurate data to make our weapons systems dead on. LIKE THE MAN SAID , ONE SHOT ONE K---> Lessons I learned in S/E asia bros.
THANX B
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Tommy is right on all counts. When it comes to springers they have next to no value other than more cocking leverage and asthetics. As far as muzzle flip is concerned, there to, there is almost no value because by the time the pressure (and pellet) reaches that point of the barrel, the pressure has pretty much expended itself and not much left to correct any flip. The spring and recoil negates nearly all of it anyhow.
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And the effect might just be from a heavier muzzle, but check this out.
http://airgunartisans.com/images/LarrysMBVideo/Muzzle%20Brake.wmv
Larry does some really fine brakes.
Iz
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lo, that vid was Sliiiick!
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I also agree with Tommy and Bob. I believe they add a bit of 'uniqueness' to an airgun. You can add a bit of cocking leverage with one and also protect the crown. I also believe that they may help or hinder with barrel harmonics. My B30's accuracy slightly improved with the addition of a MB. It may have been due to the added weight. If someone had access to high speed photo equipment, they could probably see the shock down the action and barrel during a firing cycle. Browning has the B.O.S.S. system. Is it a gimmick?
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Ya got any data on your findings, or are you only using your own experience. Logged data is considered proof heresay is just that. THANX B
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Appears all info has not produced much data other than the video. Thanx for your input. SEE YA!!! B
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Fist off let me apologize to BOB for my apparent rudness. I respect your word and your work as well.I also respect the input from everyone else on the subject. My rudness and fault comes from being raised in a very highly technical world, where any mistake causes people to be killed. Margin for error was always "0". That work leaves me always looking for scientific data to prove the worth of things. Guns being what they are facinates me, so I am constantly searching for proof of performance for things related to any weapons system whether bb gun or howitzer. Just a techy thing I recon. Since I retired I find my spelling has done a dump, so if I misspell consider the source. Ain't gonna use spell checker cause it would negate my hillbilly written. I haven't read any ,or not many of the blogs, so I will in a litte while and hopefully respond without irritatin too many. Remember not to take anything personal cause there's a lot of people who would like to put us down cause we don't have their high degrees. My personal experience with these types is very few can acctually make the product on a lathe or bridgeport, and those that can understand the requirements necessary, so they don't hack on us. They respect our abilities. That being the case I respect all the input from everyone on any aigun related subject brought up. THANX B
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RJ:
It's not that I don't agree about the value of hard data, but at least in my hands, there would be enough other variables in any critical 10 shot group test that measuring CTC accuracy pre/post MB would likely be meaningless. The pre/post MB recorded velocity data I have on two of my air rifles would vary not only from the addition of the MB but also a tune and spring replacement and would also be meaningless. And critically testing a null hypothesis on performance enhancement with a MB is way down the list of things on which I tend to spend what trigger time I have. I am usually looking more at optics, pellet selection, and shooting technique -- or just smiling and shooting, not worrying about anything technical. Sorry dude.
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I agree with your view point, maybe I'm not seeing the picture clear enough.I also have a great deal of data from my 5 airguns and much data from my powder guns as well. I will continue to collect my own data for my personal knowledge as it is interesting, at least. THANX B
I also tend to do the optics and other things you do, as well. Ain't nothin better than a 100 yard beer can shot. Other than drinkin the cold one first. No offense taken, man.
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The boss system ain't no gimmick as I have shot some of these. Of course it would not be viable on a breakbarrel springer for various reasons, but the english use um on pcp stuff and they work pretty good as I have shot some of these , as well. Man my spelling is nada this morning. arthur has done in me little hands. Lovlely bein over 60. B
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rojo: I find your techinical devotion fascinating. i look forward to your future findings, I am trying to learn as much as possible and things of a mechanical nature fascinate me! Keep up the good working and cant wait to see your data/results on any and All AG gun topics in the future.