GTA
Gateway To Product Reviews => Non-Productive Posts => : September 20, 2008, 03:19:21 AM
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the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion
Lets tax real property owned by all religious organizations. They only cost the rest of us money they should be paying. They use the services taxes of working people pay for yet contribute nothing to the cost. Religion and government should be separate. Some who are religious are OK people but many hide major prejudices and hate under the cloak of 'belief' of one sort or another. Slavery, oppression, murder and all sorts of mental problems and abberant behavior are all excused and even promoted by many religions.
Keep religion separate, private and out of Public life and office and we would be better off worldwide.
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Now that wasn't too hard, was it?
You actually stated your opinion, as controversial as it may be, without directly insulting any member of the forum, and you are to be commended for it.
Admittedly, my bets were on you not being capable of it, but I have to applaud your effort. I was wrong.
Now... I suppose the question is whether or not you can keep this up.
Good luck!
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post deleted due to having lost interest in irritating Mahonri.
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Mahonni you do have a right in this country to voice your opinion but you should show wisdom and researched your beliefs before you speak so boldly .Just because I or you believe something it does not make it the truth . May God give you and you receive from Him the truth that will set you free to enjoy life .Marvin
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Hey Jeremy,
Slavery is first mentioned in 1800 B.C., in Hammurabi's Code, who was the sixth King Of Babylon, pre Muslim. It was compensation for unpaid debts, of the debtors.
Today Slavery is still practiced around the world, and exists in just about every country.
It has never been a black or white thing, just a rich or poor thing. Many of the original settlers from England brought their Indentured Servants along with them, they were debtors, working off their debts. Their debts grew, as they were charged for their food, clothing, lodging and any medical care received,while under this sentence, also any damage that they may have caused as servants.
And America was founded by people that were persecuted in Europe for their religious beliefs, mostly Protestants.
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No longer interested.
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It was precisely because of the religious persecution that some of the protestant settlers of our nation experienced and the long history of religious intollerance and reprehensible behavior pertperated in the name of many religions that the constructors of the U.S constitution saw fit to ensure separation of chuch and state. Religion, of any persuasion has no place in governing a nation.
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You sure have a lot of airguns, PeakChick.
I'm sure glad I don't have y'all's airgun addiction problem. Me, I just want one mo... okay, TWO more and I'll be perfectly fine. All set.
Seeya,
Parks
PS: I can actually think of one more I'd like, so that makes three. So three more but that's all. Then I'll quit. Y'know, unless there's like a really good deal or something...
PPS: So what does this have to do with separation of religion and state? Nothing!
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Mahonri,I am getting a kick out of your posts/responses,I don't know you but what you have to say makes me wonder where your dislike for people comes from,I don't want to rain on your parade by bringing up last nights remarks about crack houses being all over the U.S.,,,,,Unfortunately we live in a society where there is corruption,That does not meam that all people are crooked,Unlike N.Dakota with a population of maybe 11 people,I come from New York with a population of 19-20 million,New York City where I grew-up,population of 8-9 million about 15x more than N.Dakota,,,,,,,,YES, WITH SO MANY PEOPLE,there is more corruption.............the flip-side is that there are also more good honest non-corrupt people,,,,,I am saying this to say,most people that think the whole world is corrupt are usually involved in corruption themselves,Im 45 yrs old,for about 20 of those yrs. I had thoughts/beliefs just as yours,I know why I had tunnel-vision,I lived a life-style much faster than most,unlike what society would consider normal/sane,,,those who weren't in my circle,kept their distance & rightfully so! The way I seen it,there was no good at all,that's what I surrounded myself with....In 1991, I had a rude awakening, after being handcuffed,beat down & thrown through a window,a light in my head went on,not because I needed over 200 stitches to sew my face & head together but because I was doomed for death........did I mention that is was the N.Y.P.D. that threw me through the window.....HOW CORRUPT IS THIS COUNTRY,when police are just as thugged-out as we were,those were my thoughts......I come from an old-fasion Italian family(Roman Catholic)..I had to change my belief,first I started with my faith & converted to Christianity & accepted CHRIST,through him I was able to change my ways,which helped me change the way I thought,within a short-time, I was in school becoming state certified in as a substance abuse counselor,from there I saved many lives & found that most people are good & those that chose not to be,had no faith.............TO SUM THIS BOOK UP,Instead of looking at everthing through negative eyes & looking as though all is corrupt,you should look into your own eyes & ask yourself what you see.........I know it ain't HAPPINESS! :o
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Ahhhhh, now this falls in the arena of my full-undivided expertise...
...which is why I am NOT going to say a single thing.
Aren't you proud of me?
Matt
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If you look up "Good People",,, there you will see a picture of my Buddy Joe. Dont be intimidated because he is such a big ole "bruser". Joe has a heart of gold,, he would not hurt a flea,, well,, unless it bit him!!LOL!! As a certified counselor,, Joe did all he could to help my Family pertaining to my 22 year old sons drug habit,, MANY hours on the phone,, Joe even arainged to bring John to NY for treatment. Well that did not happen,, despite all our efforts,, John is back in jail now. Now,, before some MORON attacks me & my wife blameing us for Johns problems,,, our youngest baby girl (21) is driving a new car she bought on her own,, she works hard & pays for it ,, she just joined the ARMY & ships out Oct. 3. Our oldest baby (23) is newly married,, just graduated,, living in a new 3000 sq. ft. home,, with LOTS of toys!!LOL!! 2 out of 3 aint bad?? :p Joe has become part of our Family,, me & my girls Love him & Tonya. Dam good thing we have free long distance!!He He!! 8) Cant wait to meet them in person,,, I gots some big hugs for em,,, hope Joe dont crack any of my ribs!! Whats this got to do with this thread??? I have NO EARTHLY IDEA!! Like Kimmie Sue said today,,, Dad,,, Ya got the Oldtimers!!LOL!! :o Tim.
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In the dictionary under "good people" you will see Timmy, Joe, Stephanie and the rest of the GTA crew. This might also fall in my arena of expertise but onc again I'm gonna keep my mouth shut.
People put 'themselves' in compromising positions. It has no bearing on how hard as parents we've tried. My own parents are my best friends. Sometimes it takes falling on our own faces before we grow-enough to start thinking on a more personable level. At least in my own case... the prodigal son has come home. Took me a while... but it takes a while somtimes to realize that the person in the mirror is the one responsible for our own actions.
Over and out!
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"the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
Does it help those of you who can't understand very well if I put the statement in quotes?
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Regarding slavery - when almost every other nation in the world was actively practicing slavery or just looking the other way, Americans fought a Civil war, the bloodiest in our history, largely to end slavery. No other nation on earth has done so much. Slavery continued on this continent and in the rest of the world long long after the slave trade was gone forever from the USA. And yet, the "blame America first" crowd always equates "slavery" with the USA in general and with the "South" in particular. A position of absolute ignorance of the economics of slavery and those who brought it to theses shores a few hundred years ago.
Regarding separation of Church and State, it was never meant to infer a Godless government. "In God we trust". It was meant to keep the "Church" from becoming a political power and then practicing state sponsored religious persecution for those of another faith or religion (or for that matter, lack of faith or religion). Examples of the alternative are abundant throughout history (Catholic v. Protestent, Muslim v Christian, Sunni v. Shiite, and on and on and on.
But never forget the absolute basis of American Constitutional rights. These come from "Creationism" - "All men are created equal", and from God as the highest political power: "and are endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights". No logical argument can be made for "all humans are evolved equally, else I misunderstand the basic hypothesis of evolution. And if there is not God in government and there is only moral relativism, then who, relatively speaking shall say what our rights are?
Any government that slips from the true intent of religious freedom and separation of church and state and adopts the position that "God (and religious faith) has no place in government" overlooks, no, denies the very foundation of America's greatness -- her Constitution and Bill of Rights, and opens the door for someone other than God to dictate what our "rights" are. No thanks to that view.
In God we trust. May God bless America. And if God ever ceases to be the highest moral authority our government answers to, then may God help us all. Amen.
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Okay. I guess I'm gonna open my big mouth after-all.
The very words that speak of a separation of "church and state" were put in place for a reason. It is a reverse-psyche attempt at encouraging everyone to believe just that. In truth, this particular election has shown more non-separation of church and state than any other.
When a federal 9th circuit judge in California ruled that "One Nation under God" was unconstitutional it was our very own beloved President Bush that slammed it back down again.
http://www.au.org/site/DocServer/One_Nation_Under_God.pdf?docID=154
Thereby defeating the notion. It was REVERSED.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/14/scotus.pledge/
Religion and Government are indeed ONE. Religion keeps the masses in check thereby alleviating an up-rising. Religion keeps people content. It preaches complacency and acceptance of outside circumstances following an entourage of humility in the name of the Father.
If you want to see what's REALLY going on...
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com
However, I have no opinion on the subject(hahahahaha...).
I don't feel like being the skapegoat for every hyper-religious fanatic who disagree's with te truth that was flushed down the western sewer a long, long time ago.
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Does the belief that all men are created equal and endowed by their creator of inalienable rights mean that I am a hyper religious fanatic?
Wasn't it Joe Stalin that said "religion is the opium of the masses", or was that Karl Marx? I forget.
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Hey ALL,
It is my belief, that Mahonri is only batting us ! He just makes unintelligent statements, then repeats them without any attempt to prove his pitiful assertions.
I refuse to argue with a him, any longer, lest I become one too.
Bill
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With all due respect, the words "separation of church and state" were not put in place, anywhere in the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights. They first occur in a letter from Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. Jefferson, btw, had little or nothing to do with the wording of the US Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
The only use of the word "religion" in the actual Constitution is in Article 6, "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Then there is the more famous reference in the 1st Amendment, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." which goes on to protect the rights of communists, etc.
So that is just the truth of the matter.
I wouldn't want to live in a religious state. But when I look around at the world I actually live in, my rights and lifestyle are more threatened by those who hate religion, than by the religionists. I know it's been different in the past but that is how it stands today. So I am all for keeping the state out of religion, but have no objection to free religionists participating in the state... which is half of what the 1st Amendment was trying to say.
I had 12 years of Catholic school. There were only 2 Catholics involved in framing the Constitution, for the record. It is the product of an 18th century protestant and pan-theist/Deist outlook. It has been a very successful document, despite being written by heretics. :)
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"In God we trust".
And when was this added to the US Currency and government documents?
Indentured servitude and slavery are two different things entirely. One works for a set time and gets the debt paid. The other has no end and is never voluntary.
Interesting that European Protestants settled the US while some of my relatives lived here while coming in the late 1500's and early 1600's, took land from the native populations and had already built good sized towns some time before the English interlopers set foot on the East coast of this continent.
Once again: "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion"... This, by some of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. It is the only statement of religion you will find approved by Congress, George Washington, John Adams and is/was the official US Government view from these early patriots.
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Separation of church and state are not in the constitution. That is a supreme court decision.
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Seriously disinterested now.
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Well I fired the first shot.
But as we all know, Catholic girls are the envy of the whole world, and for every cleric that turned a little boy, that was two less competitors.
I think Scalia's originalism is interesting. I am not sure if I buy into it, but it is an offshoot of the textualist interpretation of the Constitution and for some reason I am comfortable with this. I do not see the Constitution as a living document. I see it and maybe the Bill of Rights, as carved in stone. You can have lots of Federal law without going to the Constitution, which is really a contract about resolving issues at the macro level. Whenever some idiot wants to amend the Constitution, I know they are pushing for another reason for a government to stick a gun in someone's face someday, instead of winning their own battles in lower courts.
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Actually, the verbiage "We hold these rights to be self evident," etc. appear in the Declaration of Independence. But "self evident" rights endowed by our Creator are, none the less at the heart of our national origins and the Constitutional rights enumerated by the founding fathers. They were and are, I believe, the moral and ethical basis of the America's break from imperial rule by Great Britain or any totalitarian threat, foreign or domestic, and were, indeed, at the heart of what the founding fathers of this nation attempted to embody in her Constitution and Bill of Rights on behalf of "We, the People".
The Supreme Court and the history its rulings are another story all together. But this just shows how a bunch of lawyers with an agenda can totally pervert something as sacred as our God-given rights if we let them. And "religion" in the sense you refer to it is not the same as the faith and acknowledgment that God, not the government of man nor any judges they may appoint, endowed us with our freedom and our rights.
Further, I believe the affirmation and protection of these God-given rights and freedoms are at the very heart of what so many brave Americans have fought and died for since the founding of this country, and what, as embodied in the Constitution, they solemnly swear to protect and defend, "so help me God". But maybe, as inferred, I am just full of crap and my beliefs can be dismissed because I am a religious fanatic who wants to press my religious agenda on other Americans, particularly liberal atheists who want no part of God in government because we are better off without Him or these silly notions.
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Jaymo,
Christianity IS a Religion !
And Faith is the belief of something that can't be quantified or seen.
And Christian means: follower of Christ, or Jesus Christ,
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You guys are getting way off the original topic. That was a simple one: "the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion" .
Argue and discuss all you want. This is the belief of the founding fathers codified and stated plainly for the world to see. You can belong to a Church, synagogue or group but the United States Government was founded by men and not on a Religion.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Samuel Adams, John Adams and the rest believed in basic principals that are or are not encompassed in Christian belief, Bhuddist belief, Shamanism or whatever, but the statement stands as is.
Even among "christians", (uncapitalized and in quotes) there is bickering, *_*_*_*_*_*ing and moaning as one group fights with another because they are 'better' or whatever. They even complain that other 'christian' churches are not realy "christian" because they don't believe the bible the same way as another. Bickering, murdering, thievery and the rest stem more from religion than greed of individuals. The US would be better off to keep religion far from lawmaking and tax the hell out of all church property. If they did so they could probably do away with individual income tax completely.
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http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10893&mid=83505#M83505
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The line you are quoting is from an obscure treaty of friendship with a *_*_*_*_*_*ant country that we invaded anyway (and who richly deserved it). It is not the basis of any US law.
As a little refresher for all, I have already cited the only mentions of religion in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These ARE the supreme law of the land.
The Declaration of Independence has several more or less direct references to God. These are sometimes attributed to the Constitution, but that is not correct, and it is an important distinction.
"...to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them..."
"...they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions..."
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."
So you see the slippery slope of dragging other documents into the discussion of the nature of American democracy. This document preceeds the Constitution and was signed by the leaders of the rebellion, including many framers of the later Constitution.
If we are going to deduce meanings from the supposed thoughts of the Founding Fathers, this would be a very significant document. However, in a legal sense, no laws can rest on the Declaration of Independence from Great Britain. They rest on our most excellent Constitution.
The Declaration was signed in 1776.
The Constitution was ratified 1787 (or as they put in writing, the "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven"). I let that reference go as a common figure of speech.
The supposedly damning text you are citing is from the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796.
Here is the whole quote, in context:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, — as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, — and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
When we see its intended purpose, it changes the meaning of the phrase, doesn't it?
But more important is that this treaty and these words are not a legal basis for anything, except friendship with the Pasha of Tripoli. We put said party out of business in 1805 anyway because he was still trying to get us to pay tribute. I guess we weren't willing to render unto so many Caesars...
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Finally someone got to the treaty and its language. It states specifically what I posted. It was drafted while George Washington was President, was enacted when Adams was President and is to be followed as all treaties are.
That the treaty itself is no longer in force does not change that language or meaning. It was a clear statement that the US Government is not founded on a religion even if many held religious leanings.
No one here is attacking their religion. Anyone who sees this as an attack on their religion is paranoid or deranged. I believe the US Government should take away all religious exemption and tax this property at its highest value. Too many use religious as a tax scam and hide income and assets as a result. That Congress and the courts allow this to go on is deplorable. Tax these do nothings to the hilt. Religion is the excuse for murder and wars the world over. Without religious nutcases pushing others we would have fewer wars. From the Crusaders killing Muslims to the Pope entering into treaties with Hitler to ignore the murder of millions to modern Polygamists in Texas being persecuted for what they believe God commanded in marriage religion is an excuse for anything anyone wants to do.
Have at religious freedom, it is supposedly guaranteed by the US Constitution. But *_*_*_*_*_* off the wrong people and you find your religious 'rights' trampled underfoot as in Texas and most areas where one denomination gets power.
The US Government is not founded on the Christian or any other religion and it should stay that way no matter who is in office. (even a snake handling, tongue talking, holy rolling pentecostal a heartbeat away from the Presidency.)
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The power to tax is the power to restrict or destroy. Exempting religions from taxation is a means of ensuring their independence.
Capiche?
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Sorry Chief Rain in the Face but taxing real property should be equitable. Can't pay? Sell it to someone who can. Has nothing to do with independence. It is fundamental fairness. You own real property, you pay taxes if your jurisdiction levys property taxes. Personal Property should be exempt for individuals, taxed only on purchase or sale and apply to individuals as well as corporations.
Too many religious groups are thinly veiled scams supporting societal parasites who produce nothing, do nothing and serve no useful purpose while spreading fairy tales and hate and calling it 'religion'.
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Back to the personal insults, eh?
Man, pity you.
But like I was sayin', nobody's gonna take you seriously like that. Hell, I didn't bother to read past the first sentence.
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Nevermind. Comments removed. Not worth it.
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The reason churches aren't taxed is because they are non-profit organizations. All non-profits can apply for tax exemptions. We can start an airgun club, collect user dues, and even buy property to hold shootouts. We can apply for non-profit status because the user dues go into maintaining the club and not paying profits to the owner/president/leader/etc. The paster of a church gets a salary, and that is taxed, but all the money generated from offerings is considered "maintenance fees" and is not subjected to taxation, even if some of it goes to the pastor's salary. The paster is considered part of the church, so paying him is considered as maintenance.
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Dave, yes you did fire the first shot. That said, I knew that you were kidding just as well as you knew that I was kidding. It seems some here were offended. I like your point on reduced competition. The catholic schoolgirl part was right on the money. Gotta love the Catholic schoolgirl uniform.
And for those of you who were offended by my comments, you should re-read your Roman and Greek history. It's not my fault those 2 empires were rife with sick perverts.
BTW, I'm 1/4 Sicicilian. Sicily has been both Greek and Italian property at one time or another. My dad's Catholic. I've attended the Catholic church, as well as Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, and Lutheran.
My dad and uncles were altar boys.
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Sorry bill. Christianity is a faith not a Religion. A religion is based on the belief that you have to commit a certain number of certain types of deeds in order to hopefully gain the favor of a deity. Christianity is the faith of accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior.
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Mahonri, I see you are infatuated with the word "hate". Just like every other socialist I've ever met. I love the fact that you think I'm racist. Another favorite word of bleeding heart socialists. I'll be sure to tell my best friend who's "half-beaner" (his words, not mine) and my black friends at work.
I guess Bill Cosby was just an "Uncle Tom for the white man" for pointing out the fact that the problems of the black community are the fault of the black community.