GTA
Target Shooting Discussion Forums General => Springer Rifle Target Gate General => : riflejunkie January 27, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
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Everytime I coerce one of my friends or aquaintences to shoot offhand they stand there FOREVER and never pull the trigger. They say, "I can't quit moving." Guess what? Nobody quits moving. I think they also are intimidated by the thought of missing the target.
I consider myself an aspiring position shooter. I have no claim to any fame and post this as an act of sharing with you the training I've received from some freakishly accurate competitors.
Natural Point of Aim. If you will, firstput up a target of some sort. You aren't going to shoot it. It will just be there for this and other exercises. I just put a small dot about the diameter of a wooden pencil on a sheet of paper and tape it to my hutch. I get 8 or 10 feet away and stand facing approximately 90 degrees to the right of my target.(I'm a rightie.)It doesn't have to be exact because you are going to have to tweak your stance to get your NPA to have you efffortlessly pointing at the X ring.
It is important to place the same part of the stock on EXACTLY the same place on your shoulder EVERY time. Bring the rifle to your shoulder and address the target in an offhand position. With your lead hand near the front of the trigger guard it will be easier to rest your leading elbow against your ribs and/or hip so that you aren't supporting the weight of the rifle with your leading deltoid. Now aim at the dot on the paper. Now that you have done that stay ABSOLUTELY STILL AND CLOSE YOUR EYES FOR THE DURATION OF 3 BREATHS. Now open your eyes and find out where your Natural Point of Aim really was. DON'T MOVE YET! Lets say that you found the NPA was too low. Move your rear foot further away from the target WITHOUT moving your lead foot. If your NPA was too high you move your rear foot closer to the target. If your NPA is to the right move your rear foot tothe perpendicular right of your line of sight. If your NPA is left you can move the rear foot to the left perpendicular to the line of sight.
Even if you have the crosshairs of your scope or your front and rear sights lined up perfectly on the x ring, you will hit to the right if your NPA is to the right.
My practice goes like this. Address the target to my left. I look down at my right shoulder and I bring the bottom point of the buttplate of my rifle to that little hollow where my deltoid, pectoral and collarbone come together. The muzzle is pointed upward in the direction of the target and I place my left hand or fist under the stock and let my left upper arm and elbow come to rest against my ribs and hip. I keep my right elbow rather low. The more I would raise my right elbow the further out from my body the elbow would be and my elbow is not weightless. Extending weight outward like that will cause you to sway. I bring the stock to my face and not the other way around. If you bring your face to the stock you will be leaning your head over and your head is heavy. If your head is not directly over your center of gravity it will cause you to sway. Now I have to take the weight of the rifle into consideration in terms of my center of gravity. The rifle is essentially in front of you so you need to arch your back and let your hips come forward a bit. Your lead hip is jutted in the direction of the target to better support the lead arm, the back and hips, head and rear armare positioned to minimize swaying. That is a drill. Just getting the rifle to your shoulder and getting a grasp of your center of gravity. Give yourself some time in position to see if you are swaying on a line perpendicular to your line of sight. When you learn that feel for getting a "no sway" body position you can then do the next drill. Here you address the target and mount the rifle to your shoulder and aim at the target. When you have the sights on the target, close your eyes for a period of 3 complete breaths then open and evaluate and correct your position. Don't point the rifle with your arms and hands. Point the rifle with your body position..
Now add dry fire. Even if your rifle can't be dry fired you can pull the trigger without cocking it. The trick is to get used to pulling the trigger without disturbing the sight picture. If your rifle is capable of being dry fired it's even better because you can see what you are doing when the trigger breaks. After I pull the trigger I hold my position for follow through and then bring the gun down to a rest position for about a minute or so and do it all over again. 10 shots takes 5-10 minutes. At first it is brutally boring. When you do it every day for a week or so you will get a tolerance for spending time at it.
OK, this is a start.
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Very nice tutorial Charlotte. I shoot off-hand 90% of the time, and I really appreciate your generous knowledge and experience. You know, it's taken me a long time to teach myself to shoot springers accurately,... and what I have done has taken alot of trial and error to shoot more proficiently. Alot of what you've stated, has been the way I shoot,...though not near as technical,...or methodical. I wish I could have read this alot sooner and saved myself many hours and pellets to nearly come to the same conclusions about posture and technique. I will re-read this many times for it to soak in, and will practice this method of finding my ideal NPA!!! Of course I shoot 'lefty' so it may take me a while to transcribe everything "backwards"?!?!?!?! LOL's Thanks again! tjk
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Bravo!
Getting strapped into a shooting jacket helps with the wiggles but still doesn't gain you any advantage if you don't practice the same way everytime and learn where your NPA is.
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Ronbeaux, it is a tedious sport. I've gotten more benefit out of the time spent in my kitchen/dining room dryfire range than I have sending lead down range. When the gun goes off in live fire you just can't see the mistakes the way you can with dry fire.
I love my knoblochs, btw.
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Riflejunkie, I've only been shooting for a few months so I know what you mean when you say 'It don't stop moving!' This is the first time I've really thought about how to stand when shooting offhand. I'm not too bad but there is plenty of room for improvment! I find it hard to position my leading elbow on my hip or ribs and seem to be scrunched up in a most uncomfortable manor! I don't suppose you could post a photo of the said stance could you? I only ask this because I have followed your advice and my POA is only about 4 meters infront of me, and to raise it up puts me in a very peculier position with my back bent double and my rear leg...well you get the idea, obviously I've got it a bit wrong or my body shape is a bit out of wack! Any help would be a god send!
Cheers Andy
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Andy
Go to http://www.pilkguns.com and look at the pix section. Lots of pix of competition rifle shooters.
The one thing to remember is the shooters are wearing shooting outfit (jacket, pants and shoes), which help to support the body.
What I use in place of a shooting jacket is a back belt from Home Depot. It also helps to protect my injured back. The back belt is NOT competition legal, but for casual home use it will support and protect your lower back.
A shooting glove will help also. An old ski glove will be a decent substitute for a shooting glove. It just needs enough padding to isolate the gun from your hand (blood pulse) and so the weight of the rifle on your knuckle does not hurt the knuckle (if you support the rifle on your fist like I do).
gud luk
Gary
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I'll get some pics and post them. If your npa is that low bring your lead hand closer to the trigger guard. Also adjust the but in your shoulder to be lower. Also, make your lead hand into a fist and rest the stock on top of your fist.
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I shoot more like Mr. Saddlebags himself (John Wayne!) Those are some strange looking guns Gary! My Gamo Maxima would be more at home in the movies! LOL!!! It looks like I've got alot of work ahead of me! So let me get this right! You rest the gun on your knuckles to bring the barrel up a touch and bring the stock higher in the shoulder until all is level! Looks like it's a case of wearing 2 or 3 jackets at the least! They all seem to have their heads held straight! Is pistol shooting any easier!!! I too, have a bad back now !(I put it down to my shooting style! Maybe Mr. Wayne had simular problems so he just ended up shooting in the general direction and had some crack shot hidden off camera to actually hit the targets! LOL!!!)
Anyway Gary, I will study their shooting positions, maybe drink a few beers and try once again to assume the position! Cheers Bud!
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Cheers Charlotte,
Gary just opened my eyes to resting the gun on the knuckles trick! The link he gave showed the shooters from the side so I have an idea as to where everything is supposed to go but if you could show me looking from the direction of the target so to speak, then I would be able to understand the positioning of the forearm better! I'm not sure if I'm supposed to bring the elbow in under the gun slightly infront of the hip or straight down under the arm! Unfortunatly here in Spain, I seem to be the only one that shoots targets! Everybody else goes hunting with live rounds and trying to get a licence for that is like extracting blood from a stone! They don't want the English shooting on their turf! So I'm sticking to targets and trying to improve myself!
Hey, Congratulations on your new position.
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Wow. Talk about an eye opener. As it turns out, 90deg is the right spot. At over 8lbs, the Viper and Scope are defintely heavy to site. Can't wait for the rest of the tutuorial!
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Hey Charlotte, I've re-read your thread a few times over again, and I think something you could add to it is "how to shoulder" the rifle. For instance,.as you do, I address the target with my right shoulder facing the target with my chest facing 90 degree away from the target (remember, I'm a south-paw!!). Once i get my stance set, I bring the stock up to my chest area and place the butt of the stock between my arm bicept and the frontal deltoid, still looking straight ahead, and placing my fore-stock hand (palm up) just in front of the trigger with my elbow tucked into my rib and hip area. Once I get this position set, I turn to the scope and usually my eye-relief is just about in position with a small amount of adjustment to achieve a clear window of view. Now I will admit that with my stock placement,...I hold my elbow out,..or high, and this seems comfortable to me. Seems to aid in keeping the rifle steady to. Does this sound ok to you,....or am I out in right field on the whole thing?!?!?!?? tjk
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Here is the thing. If we were all shooting free rifles that have infinitely adjustable stocks we could be doing a cookie cutter explanation. Also the type of shooting dictates a different hold. Are you guys familiar with 3 gun action shooting? Well, those guys cannot use the offhand position I've been describing. They are shooting for speed and their elbows are going to be away from their ribs, but for precision position shooting with sporting type rifles we strive to use as much of the olympic technique as we can. Exactly how and where the butt fits on the shoulder depends on the stock, the sight height and your individual body structure. Example, when I shoot seated position the butt of the rifle is OUTSIDE my right arm IF I'm using my CZ 452. The length of pull is just too long for me to shoulder the rifle in anything resembling a normal hold and yet I'm reasonably strong in the seated position. I could not get away with this position with a heavy recoiling rifle like a Garand. As Bruce Lee said, "Do what works for you."
On the lead arm/elbow I bring my elbow toward my navel as I lower it. It doesn't go there but that is the tension I exert. If my upper arm and elbow are too far to the side there is a tendency to slide the arm backwards and out of a position of support.
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So the elbow does not effectively sit 'on' the waist or rib area, it's more like the friction between the tricep and the chest leading down in the direction of the naval? This would account for my scrunched up position! I always thought that the elbow was planted onto of the hip (most uncomfortable) so I went for the typical cowboy pose which was more comfortable but the groups suffer badly.
I've just tried it with the Maxima with the gun on my knuckles and the elbow in said position, it felt good, my head was straight and I didn't need to put my elbow on my hip! I did as you described, brought my elbow across and it felt like a good steady position! Thanks for the help Charlotte, I'll put in some more offhand practice now!
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Truman, you are on the right track I think. To be honest with you about the contact, it depends on the rifle. If I'm shooting my FWB which has to be at least 12 lbs and front heavy there is enough weight to push my elbow and upper arm down, but a lighter rifle puts me just like you in having a friction hold between my rear upper arm and my ribs.
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"Nobody Quits Moving"...........just made my day........I thought I was the only one !!!! Almost gave up drinkin' !!!!
Seriously........Target Gate is a great addition to the site. I'll be spending much time here, learning as much as I can. Thanks to Charlotte for moderating.........and teaching................Raoul
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you know what's funny...it's that to a certain degree the technique for rifles resembles archery shooting (which i train), mostly the position of the body and trigger arm. i guess it's probably the universal posture for keeping good balance.
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we're all dealing with the human body so there is bound to be a great deal of overlap.
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I make a fist and position it like I am punching upward with the back of my hand toward the target, then I rest the rifle on the first 2 knuckles. This raises the rifle higher than if it were resting on the palm of my hand. Because it is resting on the knuckels, a padded glove is important to protect your knuckels. Mine hurt for several weeks, until I got a padded glove. Now this is just how I shoot, and there are other ways.
By raising the rifle, I can keep my head more upright, rather than bent forward.
I also cant the rifle over to the left.
This puts the rear sight to the left of the center-line of the stock.
This allows me to keep my head upright rather than bent over to the right to lean over the stock.
With the head upright, both front/back and left/right, it is easier to keep my balance, and I don't krink my neck.
Oh, in the rules, there is a limit as to how far DOWN you can lower the rear butt plate, to raise the rifle so you don't have to bend you head over. So if you have a long neck, you have no choice but to either bend your neck to lower your head or position the bottom of the butt plate on your shoulder. Putting the butt plate high is a less stable position, because you have less butt plate to pull into your shoulder to get a tight position.
I shoot with a sweat shirt, and if cold with a light down vest inside the sweatshirt.
Pistol shooting is easier only because by the rules you CANNOT use any body supports like the shooting outfit that rifle shooters use, so it is a lot cheaper for the shooter.
Gary
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Andy
Think of a line going STRAIGHT DOWN.
That is how you want the weight of the rifle to go, any deviation to the side requires additional support. This is why the front/rear view (reference the direction of the target as front) of a rifle shooter shows them bending over backwards, to put the rifle over the center of gravity of their body so the weight goes DOWN.
For the support arm.
If you are lucky to have long upper arms, so you can rest your elbow on your hip, good.
If not, like me, what you do is let your left arm go limp and let it rest against your rib cage. In this way, the rifle pulls the arm down in the shoulder socket, there is NO muscle support use to hold the rifle up. It will also help to use a sweatshirt with a lot of friction so the arm does not easily side against the ribs.
Similarly for the rest of the body, let the body go LIMP.
My former coach called is the melting snowman position.
In this way, you remove the muscles from holding the rifle and you up...and you have maximum BONE support.
As for elevation.
Look at the side views of the shooters (the front and back of their body), and notice the angle of their back, hip and legs. This is how the rifle is adjusted in elevation.
WARNING
In these stances and with the 11 pound weight of a match rifle, you MUST be careful to protect your lower back.
Match shooters have the benefit of a shooting jacket, you need to use something similar. I use a back belt that I got from my local home improvement store. The belt is NOT competition legal, but is fine for casual home use.
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Very good, Gary!!!!!!
A Denim jacket that fits a little tight makes a very good shooting jacket.
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Wow....that was a really good read Charlotte. I`ve got to practice that. Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge.
Btw....do you know why in the army....they teach those guys/gals to bring up their elbow (Trigger hand/arm) almost at a right angle while shooting rifles? Or is that only in Hollywood films?
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This has to do with the pistol grip on the rifle.
A VERTICAL pistol grip, as on target rifles and M16/AR15, allows the shooter to lower his right arm and still maintain a good grip on the pistol grip.
A HORIZONTAL pistol grip, as on most sportsters, does not allow the shooter to lower his right arm and still maintain a good grip on the pistol grip. This is most apparent on a really flat pistol grip, as on a lever action rifle, where the pistol grip goes straight into the rear stock w/o any downward form.
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Things have changed. There is a different snap shot position used now and you can see it in 3 gun competition. Jerry Miculek a S&W phenom is the worlds fastest man with a revolver with 12 shots in under 3 seconds and that included a reload, is also a competitor in 3 gun. T There are times whe he intentionally cants his rifle. Some competitors in those events use a very extended lead hand reaching out toward the muzzle.
The military teaches the precision type of offhand I was describing. Lucky for me the US Army Marksmanship Unit is in Columbus, GA about 120 miles from here. They usually send someone up to our club to compete in our matches and, btw, the AMU also shoots pcp. Something that isn't well known about the AMU is that it is the NFL of shooting sports. When some kid is on a collegiate rifle or pistol team and is competing at a very high level they are scouted by the AMU. The AMU was started by Dwight Eisenhower to recruit the best marksmen and gunsmiths and then these elite members train the trainers and also continue to compete on all levels up to and including the Olympics. One of the AMU members took home a gold in Beijing.
Thanks and I'm glad you got something out of the post. Practice that stuff and I promise you will shoot better than any of your shooting buddies. You won't stop moving but your woble will shrink and slowdown.
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Thanks for the responses concerning the raised right elbow thing. Now that ac12basis and riflejunkie have explained it....it makes sense.....the angle of the grip....
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Even for a basic plinker like me, this is some good, useful info.
Thank you, riflejunkie and everyone else for the input!