GTA
General Discussion To Gateway To Airguns => Hunting Gate => : longislandhunter March 05, 2009, 01:27:44 PM
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It seems the NY State Dept. of Environmental Conservation finally officially addressed the issue of small game hunting with air guns. The news is not good unfortunately. The "DEC" has skirted the issue for years but I was informed by friends of mine who work for the DEC that there is now an "official" policy that just went into effect.
Basically it's very simple....... air guns cannot be used to hunt small or large game in the state of NY. The only animals that you can legally hunt with air guns are the "unprotected species" listed in the DEC laws (woodchucks, starlings, rock pigeons, red squirrels, porcupines).
Hopefully this policy may change at some time in the future if enough political pressure is brought to bear, but for now small game are now off limits. I'm very upset about the new change, but at least I can still hunt pests at the duck farm during the summer.
Oh well, what can you do :(
Guess I'll start "thinning the herd" and get rid of a few rifles......
Better yet,,,, hey Gene,,,,, any part of those woods behind your house for sale??? I told Joe there's no way I'm gonna just stop hunting with an air rifle so I guess I'm gonna have to move... South Carolina sounds nice :)
Jeff
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Florida is better!!!!! LOL Szeriously though, are you using a laser sight on any of your springers? I just bought a BSA laser to try on my S1K and the gamo are within an inch but not one holing it. Will try pedators after I break down and buy some. Thanks and sorry to hear about your new laws. Do they apply if you are on private land? John
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Yeah, unfortunately they apply to public and private land, basically the entire state. I'm just happy that I can still spend the summers shooting woodchucks, pigeons and starlings with my air rifles,,,, I can live with the law as long as I have my summer pest hunting.....
JEff
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Im an "Indian" Jeff,,,, makes me own rules here on the "Reservation"?? :p Yup,, thats me,,,,, a 50 year old half bald "Blonde Indian"!! :p 8) Just Funnin Jeff,,,,, I follow ALL the rules Buddy!! :p Besides,,,, we all know "BB Guns" cant take small or medium sized game animals?? :o 8) Sad,,,,,, VERY sad indeed. Get Well Buddy,, we need to talk!! :D Tim.
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Glad to hear you are on the mend Jeff. Very sorry about the airgun hunting situation in NY. I know how much you love to pack your airguns in the woods. Good you still have a few targets to shoot at. Get well soon. Rest up.
Dan L
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Sorry to hear that Jeff. I know you are a law abiding person and it is a great loss to you for them to take away your hunting rights. Come on down south and you can hunt all the nutters etc. that you want..:)
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Jeff,,I guess they were serious about the change in law,,,that hurts,,, :0 What's gonna happen next????? :o They probably will stop me from playing ball because the bats are considered weapons!!!!! :p
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Gene Gene I'll be camping out in your woods out back,, :) Don't worry,I'm a good cook!!!!! :p
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Can't imagine why they would do that? Jeff you can come down to Tucson anytime to hunt. Big 12 pound Jack Rabbits.
Paul
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Can't imagine why they would do that? Jeff you can come down to Tucson anytime to hunt. Big 12 pound Jack Rabbits.
Paul
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What a bummer buddy, to many squirrel lovers over there or what.? Hang on to your shooter's buddy, you can use em for road trip's for hunting in other STATES. I'm happy to hear that your doing better though buddy. :) Ed
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I almost fell off my chair when I read your PM Jeff.
I was actually afraid this day might come because PA has the same law. Maybe some DEC exec. has friends in PA and they convinced him to do the same. I would really like to know the reasoning behind it. They should not be allowed to pass laws unless they explain to the public the reasoning behind them. They probably held public meetings but where was the NRA and other hunter's organizations? I 'm really ticked off at the NRA because I have been a member for many years and they did not let any of us know. Maybe they didn't know themselves and did nothing to stop it. The reason most people own guns is to use them for hunting and pest contorl. What good is it owning guns if we can't use them on game? A PCP gun is no different than a .22 rimfire. Obviously these people don't know anything about airguns or their power. Maybe if they did, they would classify them as firearms and then we couldn't use them at all within 500ft of a building or because of town/city laws.
I 'm going to sell a couple of my PCP's too. I can't see not shooting another coon, possum or squirrel with them.. I 'm better off without them. I 'll keep one just for G-hogs at a distance. This is very bad news indeed..
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I know what you mean Harry,,, I feel the same as you, I"m actually depressed over this....
As for holding public hearings,,, I'm told there weren't any,,, this was just a decision made by the ruling powers at the DEC on their own accord. Technically it's really a "policy procedural change" that was disseminated in the form of an official memo. Apparently the DEC has the power to interpret and implement policy and procedures with respect to hunting and fishing and enforce their decisions. I did quite a bit of research in the NYS Environmental Conservation Law looking for this new "law" but it doesn't exist, at least not yet. My friend said it was in the form of an official "memo" but he said we would probably see something in writing by next hunting season. Very strange way to run a government agency as far as I'm concerned.
As for the "firearms" part that you mentioned,,,,, got some more bad news for ya Harry,,,, and this is really weird....
The NYS Penal Law clearly does NOT consider air guns as firearm,,, but,,,, are you ready for this ?????
The NYS Environmental Conservation Law clearly defines and lists all air guns as FIREARMS with respect to hunting and shooting laws. Amazing right ?? 2 different laws and 2 different definitions, but this fact should cause some concern for the air gun enthusiast in NY. This fact is especially important if a person were to be afield (hunting or target shooting) with an air gun that was made to be "neighborhood friendly" because under the E.C.L. laws you would now be in possession of a "firearm" that is equipped with a "you know what" and you could be in TREMENDOUS TROUBLE !!!!!!
The E.C.L. law also clearly states that it's illegal to hunt any game (key word being ANY) with a firearm (air guns qualify) equipped with a "you know what".
Anyway, I have to end this post,,, I"m getting to depressed.
Harry,, at least we can still shoot starling, pigeons, G-hogs and a couple of other non game species so it's not a total loss.....
Jeff
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JEFF HAPPY TO KNOW THAT YOU R ALRIGHT .JEFF FOR NOW DO JUST WHAT THE DOCTOR ORDER RELAX ,ITS BAD AND WILL GET WORST WE KNEW THIS WAS GOING TO HAPPEN BUT WHAT CAN WE DO ,YOU RIGHT ONE OF TWO THINGS MOVE OUT AND HOPE WHERE YOU MOVE TO IT DOESNT HAPPEN OTHERWISE U WILL BE MOVING ALL THE TIME OR JUST DEAL WITH IT ...IM THINKIN OF GETTIN A LIVE IN CAMPER AND TRAVEL, OR MOVE TO MAINE .GOD BLESS US ALL...JORGE
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Wow... that blows. Kinda makes hunting more stressful doesn't it?!?!
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It's not the hunting that is stressfull,,,it's the fearless leaders that run our country that cause the stress!!!!!!! :p
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All I can say is thank goodness I don't live in the east................. :o
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You should indeed count your blessings Peak.
Here ya go Harry,,,, copied this from the NYS Environmental Conservation Law:
§180.3 Definition of firearms
For the purposes of the Fish and Wildlife Law and this Title:
(a) The word firearm shall mean any gun or other instrument which by force of gunpowder or other explosive, or which by the force of a spring, air or other gas, expels a missile or projectile capable of killing, wounding or otherwise inflicting physical damage upon fish, wildlife or other animals.
Just wonderful, isn't it ??????
I was dead serious about finding a "winter" home down south. I may start my search with a visit down to S.C. where I figure I can kill 2 birds with one stone,,,,,, finally get to visit with Gene in person and look for a home at the same time :)
(I'm still thinking about those woods at the back of Genes property) :)
Jeff
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JEFF THATS A GOOD IDEA WHAT SCARES ME IS IF IT HITS EVERYWHERE A LITTLE AT A TIME HOW ABOUT A TRAVELIN HOME I THOUGHT ABOUT THAT MYSELF SOME DO COME WITH TWO OR THREE BEDROOMS WHICH WILL BE GREAT FOR ME ,I HAVE SEEN SOME REALLY GOOD ONES IN VIRGINA .JUST A THOUGHT U COULD PACK UP AND MOVE OUT WHENEVER U WANT .IM GOING TO CHECK IT OUT SEE WHAT R THE PRO AND CONS ON THIS TYPE OF LIVIN AND THE COST ALSO I KNOW A REALESTATE THAT WILL LEAD ME IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
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Those !%3"g%?$$"!*&, who do they think they are? Just changing the law and/rules without any input from the citizens....and no public hearings. Jeff I think you should organize a "bb" gun group and contest that rule change. It`s just beginning...no pellet gun hunting now.....soon no pellet gun shooting on your own property and then finally no pellet gun ownership. It`s happening all over........
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Stanley,,,, I"d love to do that but to be honest I wouldn't know where to start.
I may write a long letter to the NRA and see if they can be of any help. I've been paying NRA dues all my life,,, maybe it's time to see if they'll do anything for a dues paying member.
A great thing would be if every New York airgun hunter wrote to the D.E.C. and the NRA and complained about this, but I'm a realist and know that that isn't gonna happen....
Jeff
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This whole thing REALLY STINKS Jeff,,,, Im so sorry Buddy. What the he#% is going on?? :0 I guess "change" aint always for the better?? :o At least you can still get after them Ground Hogs,,,, but even though that may still be legal with airguns,,,, they may still consider them "firearms",,,,,, bye bye "thingys" :0 . Take it easy & heal up Buddy. And,, when Ya decide to visit Gene,,,,, let me know,, I can be at his house in 3 1/2 hrs!! 8) 8) 8) Tim.
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Dude that law sucks. But in the place where I am living. In country named Croatia (in Europe close to Italy) it is forbiden to shot at any tipe of animal with a airgun. For every bird I shot I can get penalty like taking my gun away and paying a lot of money. But I feel that hunting is one of urges of human being and because of that I am illegal airgun hunter. Government in my country is so stupid. They dont know what an Air Rifle can do so they dont even think about changing the laws so I dont think of respecting them.
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jEFF Glad your felling better.. welcome back.. the new law sux hu... welcome to texas..... at least i can shoot coons, possums and stuff still... But if its a game animal, its off limits......
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Jeff,,,, my post just,,,, again for some reason,,,, posted way back up the thread,,,,just a lil under my first one. GEEEEZZZEEEE,,,, Tim.
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Guess I'll be doing double time on those night critters this year, just push em my way guy's and I'll drop as many as I can:) Ed
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Well Randall,,,, I will miss squirrel and rabbit hunting with my air rifles :( but at least I can still shoot all the groundhogs, pigeons and starlings I want a the duck farm :) so it's not a total loss (although it kinda feels like a total loss). But, the law is the law and I will abide by it until such time as it changes....
Timmy, South Carolina will no doubt be the first place I visit and I will let you know when I'm headed south.. I would love to hook up with you and Gene and any other GTA members who live nearby. Heck, maybe I can talk Joe into a road trip and the 2 of us can head down together.... hmmm,, something to definitely talk over with my buddy Joe :)
Jeff
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That's what sucks Randall. All animals here are classified "game" animals and are protected with only a limited season for them and that includes racoons, possums, SQUIRREL's, CROW's, etc. (I can't believe that I can't shoot a crow anymore!!). We can only shoot unprotected species like Groundhogs and Starlings.
Anyway, Jeff: yes I know that law. I read it a couple of years ago on their web site. That's just means that airguns are included when they mention the word "firearm" in the DEC laws, rules and regulation. They just include all types of guns under 1 word: FIREARM. That's all that means. They cannot walk up to you if you are on state or private land doing some target shooting, and ticket you for "discharging a firearm". They can't do that because by NY state law and most town laws an airgun is not considered a "firearm". If you look up the definition of a firearm in the penal code, a firearm is defined by a device you can discharge a projectile by explosion only". So that would not hold in court, nor a charge for the thing that silenc***es airguns. There has been a very long conversation about that from lawyers on the TAG forum. There are several Condor owners that are lawyers and visit TAG once in a while. They have cleared all that up. Noone is in danger of having an LDC or shourd, etc. on their airgun. The federal laws states that a sil*****er, shroud, etc. has to be on a "real" firearm and it has to screw on over the barrel, etc. A DEC officer cannot give you such a summons technically. The state and Federal laws say airguns are not firearms. It's possible because the airgun during hunting season is considered a firearm in DEC's eyes, they might try it, but they are not there to ticket you on a silencing device, they would ticket you on shooting the wrong game or with the wrong gun.. And if they ever ticket anyone about discharging a firearm with an airgun I guarantee you it will never hold up in court. My friend lost a case like that when I was on the job. He brought in a couple of teenagers for discharging a firearm. I was in court and remember this well. Discharging of a firearm was a town code violation in the town I worked in. Well all they had was airguns. It took the judge less than 2min. to look up the definition of discharging a firearm, before dismissing the case. The same would happen if they charged you with having a silen**ing device on your airgun - I 'll bet $ on it. Airguns are NOT firearms. The DEC can go kiss my A*SSSS!!!!!!!!! Man they *_*_*_*_*_*ed me off today with their moranic laws..
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I know what you're sayin Harry regarding the "official" classification of airguns as firearms,,, the problem, as you are well aware, lies in the interpretation of these laws by the judge and or district attorney who has the case folder and whatever "case law" exists.
Suffolk County local laws and the NYS Penal Law do not classify airguns as firearms, however about 10 years ago a police officer (and friend of mine) who worked in the same precinct that I did arrested a young man and charged him with having a loaded firearm in his vehicle..... the firearm in question was a loaded and cocked air rifle. My friend charged him under the Environmental Conservation Law definition of a firearm and the section that prohibits having a loaded firearm inside a vehicle. We all made fun of him and gave him a real hard time for making such an arrest,,,however he got the last laugh....
The judge that the case went up in front of found the man guilty of the charge.
As ex law enforcement officers you and I both know that the law, any law, is open to interpretation and that's the scary part. If a DEC cop were to try to enforce such a law then you may be correct when you say the charge would not stand in a court of law,,, but then again it might. Even if you do win it would cost you or I thousands of dollars and much time to clear the record.
I'm not trying to argue any points here,,,, I guess I'm just venting because like you Harry I am really upset over this entire matter and I just feel helpless because there's nothing I can do about it. Matter of fact this will probably be my last post on this cause everytime I think about this stupid law change I start to get a headache and I've already got enough trouble dealing with the pain from the stupid hernia operation.....
Tell ya what Harry,,, when the weather gets nice I'll make a trip up there and you, me and Joe can go ground hog hunting. Me and you can use our Condors and Joe can use whatever he has to bring ,,,hows that ?? Maybe that'll make us feel better. I"ve got a ton of the furry brown buggers on my property up in Margaretville,,, we can always shoot the heck out of them :) At the very least you, me and Joe would have a great time and alot of fun.
Jeff
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COONS, POSSUMS, BOBCATS, ECT. ARE considered game animals there... thats just wierd.. Game animals have a season in texas.. and if it aint got a season or a protected species its legal for me... Do they consider a pests game animals???? Thats just wierd ... I would re-read it closely.. I bet VARMITS are still legal....
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you still have it pretty good, jeff...in pa, you can't shoot anything with an air rifle...for now...some1 is working on that, and is actually getting somewhere with it!!!
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yup,,, raccoons, possums, foxes, etc all have listed seasons here Randall. The only animals that don't have official seasons are the "unprotected" species, which in NY are ... pigeons, starlings, groundhogs, red squirrels, porcupines, English Sparrows. We can still hunt all of those animals we want.
Jeff
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yeah, you are correct David and I keep reminding myself of that.... it helps.... a little :)
Jeff
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I know these latest "Laws" have got you upset,,,,, & rightly so. If I were you,,,, I would certainly not go afield with ANY airgun with a shroud on it now. By the letter of the law ,,, we both know they are perfectly legal. However,, you,,, Jeff,, & I are ex Law Enforcement Officers. You know the drill Buddy,,,,, Ya get a "New Guy" that decides you are wrong,,,, We both know even his Supervisor may back him up (Unknowing). Ya know the drill Buddy. :0 8) Personally,,,, Im just gonna buy a Marauder,,,,,when "Barney" arrests me,, Im gonna PR out & let them go after the "Deep Pockets" of Crosman Corp.!! :p LOL!! This whole thing stinks worse than the smell of them pumping out my septic tank today Harry!! Arent Ya glad to see all this "Change"!! :0 You aint seen nuthin yet!!! Sighned: Did not get to vote on this new BS "Law",, Tim.
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Dave- i thought that it my e-mailing the PA guys about air guns would have them think twice about it, but now since NY also "banned" airguns for hunting, i doubt that they will even reconsider it....
Harry & Jeff- If i was you guys, i would just say that i saw a squirrel, raccoon or what ever it might be destroying your properity/coming out of your house/fighting with pets.... Is there any logical reason why these jack's all of a sudden "banned" airgun hunting? Like did they just have a meeting one day, and say "lets 'ban' airgun hunting?"
Randall- It's the same way in PA, coons possums bobcats and all those other "nuisance"(sp?) critters are considered game, Yeah i was thinking the same
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My latest post is bout mid ways up the thread Harry?? :0 Tim.
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hmmm...well, lets just wait and see what happens...did you get any other responses yet?
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Dave-Nope just the ones that i sent to you,, i think that i'm gona try again sometime soon,,,, but with a different e-mail sent address, just to make it look like a different person
Harry- i wouldnt sell my AG's if i were you to quick... maybe if there's enough people in NY that hunt with them, the people will uprise or really get on their case about it.
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Randall,
the only animals that are NOT protected which we can shoot all year round (with airguns for now..) are the ones that Jeff mentioned. I have never seen half of them like procupine and red squirrel, so I 'm limited basically to Groundhogs (woodchucks) which are seasonal, and hybernate 6-7mos out of the year, and Starlings. I don't even have pigeons here. They only hang out in Mall parking lots. I do get a Sparrow now and then but they 're not even English sparrows. They are the common house or song Sparrow.. So I 'm down to 1 seasonal ground dweller and 1 species of birds!! This really sucks.
Thanks for the encouragemnt Tim. I was basically thinking of what Cody said, but I didn't want to type that here :-) Yeah I 'm too dang upset about this. I get all worked up every time I think about it.. anyone got a Valume? :) I 'm going to figure out how to write the NRA tomorrow and see if get a response. I 'm hoping they have a district or regional manager somewhere in NY or the North East.
Jeff:
You never told me you had Groundhogs on your property in Margaretville!! What 's your address again? Maybe I 'll cut your lawn when you 're not there in exchange for letting me take a couple of your underground beasts!! hehehe. Just give me a key so I can do some sweeping in the house too 8) (I like sniping from a window, you know me.. hehe). I 'm looking forward to heading up there with you and Joe! You can meet me right off the Thruway exit 17 and I 'll follow you up. I 'm sure we 'll need 2 cars for the arsenal we 'll be carrying with us :) Is tomorrow good? 55-60deg! :D They 'll probably come out!
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send me the address...they'll get an email from me too.