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Gateway To Product Reviews => Air Gun Reviews => Topic started by: vinceb on December 23, 2007, 09:13:30 AM

Title: MP513 - in .22
Post by: vinceb on December 23, 2007, 09:13:30 AM
Due to my generally fickle nature, I bought yet another example of a gun that I owned, sold, and subsequently started pining for. However, this time I did it right - and when I ordered another MP513, I got it in .22.

Now, I had already done a review of the MP513 in .177... and in deference to my laziness and the fact that, let's face it, most of those comments still apply, I am going to avoid rehashing all the details I went through before. Suffice it to say that it is a large, surprisingly light, powerful, hard-cocking and harsh-shooting rifle with a very utilitarian look to it.

A while ago I had decided that if I bought any really powerful guns they would be .22's. I couldn't see having to manhandle something as brutish as the '513 just to send a .177 pellet out at 4-digit speeds (which is probably not best for accuracy anyway)... it just seems like overkill in the smaller caliber. Besides, I wanted my "big guns" to be able to take out serious-sized animals if the need ever arose, and .22 is generally acknowledged to be superior in that regard.

But in doing so, I'm sorta shooting myself in the foot, so to speak, it the accuracy department. Being a cheapskate, I am quite reluctant to spend more for .22 pellets than for .22LR cartridges... but that's what's frequently required in order to get good ammo in that caliber. The boxed Crosman Premiers seem to run between $14 and $15 per box... you get 1250 in .177, but only 625 in .22. That rubs my economic sensibilities the wrong way.

As a side note, I thought I had found the perfect compromise in the .22 Premier HP's, $6.00 for a tin of 500. That brings the price down to around what I pay for my boxed Premiers in .177, and in fact I was very happy with the performance of these pellets.

For a while, anyway. And then I got another batch. I don't know what's up with Crosman, but these things are now scattering all over the place. Obviously they had a bad production run... the pellets aren't obviously flawed, but groupings frequently open up by a factor of 5-10.

So I'm back to the usual budget .22's - Crosman Wadcutters, Gamo Match (and sometimes Hunters) and Ruko Impact. Which means, of course, that the rifles I get are gonna have a tough time of it. I understand that, and so I've lowered my expectations rather considerably (compared to my .177's). In addition, I am convinced that the larger caliber is harder to shoot well simply because the slower pellet spends more time in the barrel after the trigger is pulled, giving the shooter more time to screw up the shot.

But the MP513 doesn't seem to give a hoot about all that. This one loves Crosman Copperhead wadcutters, and ably expressed that affection by nailing a best group of .12" group at 10 yards (5 shots). And that was with me (aka Mr. Wobbles)  pulling the trigger. I find it hard to believe that my POA was that consistent even with a scope (let alone my hold technique) - but the holes don't lie. I can't imagine how this thing would be capable of doing any better even with super-expensive pellets, except perhaps at long range (which I didn't test). There was one fly in the ointment here, though - the gun severely needs an adustable mount. As it stands, it shoots a couple inches low at 10 yards with a regular Crosman "C" mount.

Another puzzler is the lack of hold sensitivity. I hadn't done much shooting lately and I tend to "rust up" rather quickly. I did use the normal "artillery hold", but this thing did not demand that hyper-attention be paid to other aspects of hold the way some guns do. Frankly I don't understand it, I always figured that as power-to-weight ratio increases, a gun would get progressively harder to shoot. Ditto for harshness. But certainly not for this thing!

And the gun also acquits itself well in the power department. It's no Webley Patriot (although with 46lbs of cocking force it probably feels like one), but this thing womps the more run-of-the-mill .22's pretty handily. Five shots with Gamo Wadcutters (another pellet it shoots fairly well) showed an average of almost 773fps, which puts this gun close to 19ft-lbs range. Of course, you've got to work for this power - that 46lbs of cocking force ain't nuthin' to sneeze at, and the trigger is no picnic either, not breaking until about 6 1/2 lbs of effort. Shooting my RWS350 is postively relaxing after this thing, with "only" 41lbs of cocking effort and a 3 1/2lb trigger pull for about 15% more energy. My RWS48 is even easier with a 30lb effort, and although I suspect that my example has a weak spring it still outdoes the MP513 in power. The sub-7lb MP513 is certainly the lightest of this bunch, however, and with a buttpad to center of gravity distance of 21", it balances better than the 350.

So the Russians live up to their reputation of finely crafted barrels but less than state-of-the-art engineering. When one considers the cocking effort, the trigger pull, and the jarring discharge cycle... frankly, it's a hard gun to love. But when one sees pellet after pellet going into the same hole, well, it's equally hard to hate! My earlier comparisons to the big  Diana guns might seem to be a bit unfair - after all, those things sell for twice (or more) what the MP513 goes for. And the rifle oughta be compared to others similar in price.

So what's out there in the sub-$200 range - in .22 - that compares in power and accuracy?

Frankly, there ain't much. There's a slew of decent guns in .22 that are a couple of notches down in power (Quest, B26, RWS94, RWS34, etc). The Hammeli Storm is closer - accurate and more civilized, but still not quite as strong... but it has a worse trigger than the MP513. About the only breakbarrel that seems to be a serious threat to it is the slightly heavier AR1000 in .22 (also available as the TF89 or Beeman SS1000). If the power and accuracy of THAT gun lives up to it's billing (and by all accounts it does), its easier cocking, superior trigger, and quieter firing cycle would make it a more pleasant rifle overall than the MP513.

About the only other gun I can think of that would challenge it is the sidelever BAM B30, but others will have to comment on that rifle's overall behavior. One can still get a refurbished RWS48 or 350 for not much more than $200, and these rifles are simply in a different league than the other guns we've been discussing. Of course, buying one of these amounts to buying a used rifle (and UmrexUSA doesn't always check them out too well) with no long-term warranty - although if you get one that's bad out of the box they will replace it for you.

That pretty much lays out my impressions of the .22 cal MP513. Would I counsel anyone NOT to buy this rifle? Absolutely not, as long as he or she understood the tradeoffs. Someone once suggested that shooting this rifle requires a sense of humor, and I'd be inclined to agree. Now, the next question - am I keeping this rifle? At this point I honestly don't know - that (at least partly) depends on how well my .22 cal TF89 works out - it should be here within a week!

Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: Gene_SC on December 23, 2007, 10:14:01 AM
Abosolutly fabulous take on the MP513, Vince. Have to admire your objectiveness and detail on the shooting mechanics of the MP 513. Myself would never buy another one of those kinda air rifles..:) The Gamo 1250 .22 was enough for me with its heavy cocking cycle..:) I had never heard of this particular Russian springer until now. Thanks for sharing with us.

Gene
Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: Big_Bill on December 23, 2007, 12:31:41 PM


Great Review Vince !



As always, I enjoyed reading you take on the MP513.



Do you plan on doing a tune on her ? Perhaps that will help make her a smoother shooter...



Thanks for sharing your opinions with us .



Bill

Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: vinceb on December 23, 2007, 01:55:55 PM
I don't know. Initially I would have said "Probably not", but the more I think about it the more I'm curious to open it up.
Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: Splash on December 23, 2007, 03:16:43 PM


Nice review Vince. I wish that my back could take cocking a Magnum springer. Have you tried the black tin Benji domed pellets, I've been told that they are the same as the boxed CP's and can be had for $4.99 250ct at Academy. That's still $15 for 750, but it beats the $15 for 625 CP price.



Mike

Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: on December 30, 2007, 03:51:10 PM
Very good review. I appreciate your objectiveness. I've had mine since march, using  it as a varmint dispatcher. Not the kind of rifle you can use for paper punching all afternoon. please keep us posted on what you discover inside when you open it up, especially the trigger. I cannot seem to get a scope to work well with mine. I get 4 or 5 shots in a group and then the point of impact moves 4 degrees. Maybe I'm not mounting it correctly, the stock mount certainly doesn't help. Iron sights are crude, but effective, positive, and repeatable. Have yet to chrongraph velocities, will post when done.
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: vinceb on December 31, 2007, 08:03:43 AM
Yeah, I'd be curious as to what sort of velocity figures you get as well.

I only had the scope on long enough to get it in the ballpark and shoot a few groups (maybe 30-40 shots in all), but I had no trouble with POI shift. Didn't use a scope stop, just the 4-screw 1 piece mount and 3-9x40 AO Crosman scope that came with my Sierra Pro.

If I dive into the guts of it, I might remove the cocking ratchet and see what I can do about the trigger pull.
Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: daveshoot on January 11, 2008, 04:13:58 PM
I have been eyeballing this one for a while now. You still shooting it, or the other toys got you distracted?

Lightweight and lack of hold sensitivity seemed a decent trade for some cocking power and other peculiarities. I have never had a Russki springer but I had good luck with their powder burners a ways back

Any updates? I think the .22 is running around $144 these days.
Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: vinceb on January 20, 2008, 10:16:51 AM
I keep going back and forth on it. I just took it apart, and it is a bit funky to get back together. But at least now I'm more familiar with the mechanism.

Found out that the receiver and breach block are aluminum - obviously that's gonna save weight, but I'm wondering if that also plays a part in dampening out vibration that might otherwise help booger up a shot. Obviously, there's some concern about an aluminum compression tube wearing faster - but I suspect moly lubes will go a long way towards mitigating that.

I half expected that my recently acquired TF89 was gonna run roughshod over it, but that doesn't quite seem to be the case. The TF89 is easier to cock, smoother to shoot, and has a much better trigger, and overall it seems to be generating more power (at least initially). However, the MP513 seems to be easier to shoot well and its velocity is a lot more consistent.

In the interim my TF89 seems like it might be losing a bit of steam - whenever I see a wide swing in velocites (as I did in this thing), I immediately suspect that there's a lot of dieseling going on, and that the numbers might not be "real". My TF89 shot 10 Crosman Wadcutters with a spread of over 20fps, while the MP513 had a spread of 7fps with the same pellet.

Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: daveshoot on January 24, 2008, 03:30:52 PM
Thanks for the update. Unfortunately, you are not talking me out of this thing yet. Glad I'm not in a hurry, since I am dyin' to hear about the B28. Any pix of disassembly?
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: on January 28, 2008, 02:03:14 PM
I've had a MP513 since they first came out. With open sights it shoots very well. However I can't find a scope/mount combination that works well with it. I'll post it here when I do. I must agree that you need a sense of humor to have one of these. The cocking effort is heavy, but not that bad. The hammer feature is kinda cool, reminds me of an old .22 rimfire I had as a kid. Sights are crude, but perfectly functional. And it hits hard and straight. Easy to shoot, not very finicky about hold, just use an artillary hold . Trigger could use help.
Title: What happens...
Post by: vinceb on January 31, 2008, 01:51:49 PM
...do the mounts creep? I've tried a 3-9x32 Powerline with 2 piece (4 screw) modified Accushot mounts and a 3-9x40 Centerpoint scope with a Crosman 1-piece mount, both without using stop pins. They held up for several dozen shots, anyway, without noticeable creep.

Do you shoot your '513 a lot? If so, I imagine you can talk about longevity - which there is some question about, given the aluminum compression tube and the hard firing.
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: on February 02, 2008, 03:38:58 PM
I had similar problems with the same scope/ mount combination on my quest 800, untill Bob turbo tuned it. The scope holds zero perfectly now. I may try a one piece mount on the MP 513. I didn't notice any scope creep however. The scope may just be a little recoil sensitive. I might try a  BSA 4x32 w a/o, on this rifle, maybe a fixed power would be a little tougher, and less prone to move. Besides I don't use this rifle for shooting anything smaller than Starlings and even at 40 yds they're pretty big at 4 power. I've got about 1200 rds through it so far( got the biceps ro prove it), The mounts I've been using are B square air rifle with the internal stop screws, but I don't know if they get enough bite, due to the shallow hoes on the internal mount. The scope doesn't seem to move, but I'll get 3 to five shots in a group and then the poi will shift left or right, but not vertically.
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: daveshoot on February 02, 2008, 07:05:05 PM
Well, my russki 513 just got here along with Accushot 1 pc. and a Golden Antler. My "super Sunday" will at least partially consist of putting it all together. Hope it holds up... my gosh, is this a light rifle, especially considering it is very full sized!
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22: Chrony results
Post by: daveshoot on February 03, 2008, 09:04:13 AM
It is a relatively miserable day in Oceanside, raining, cool, and very windy.

Shooting RWS Superdomes from the back door, guessing about 58 degrees ambient. 10 shot string.

Average: 767.5
ES: 16.32
SD: 4.89
Lo: 759.9
Hi: 776.2

My last two were low outliers, dunno why unless it was either cooling with exposure to the outdoors or spring fatigue (I pumped off as fast as this beast would allow).
Outstanding consistency out of the box and a heckuva wallop with a 14.5 gr slug.

It is hard to cock, hardest of anything I own. The ratchety sound during cocking adds to the impression.
It is loud when firing. Damned loud. Might be spring noise transmitted through the cheek or whatever, but I think it is just loud.
The rear sight windage adjustment is weird. Somehow it works, but it seems overly mechanical. I reset the set screw several times to get the blade where it needs to be, fine tuning with the windage knob on the side All the sight adjustments are spring-loaded on this rifle, even the front.
Recoil? Oh, I think so... it is not a twelve gauge or anything but you definitely get the impression of extreme mechanical force.

It is highly accurate in my cursory 10m testing.
I love the hammer. This might change when the scope goes on, but it is cool. As vinceb says, very much like a powder burner in function and effect.
So far it is exactly what I wanted and expected. Light beyond belief for its size, highly accurate and powerful, no obvious hold sensitivity. This seems to be a very good shooter.
I will have to see what can be done about the trigger. It isn't awful but I sure wish it had the B26 trig.

The wood is not that bad, nothing special, although the massive cocking pivot assembly is well forward of the stock. This gives it an ungainly, front heavy appearance, even though it is really very nicely balanced once you point it. I would expect this rifle to be a great hunter unless the ratchet spooks the critters. Whatever it hits is going to go down hard, and I am eager to get some results on other pellets.

I am a little hesitant to put my new scope on, now... with about 60 rounds total through it, I do have some healthy respect for the jolt this could deal out to optics. I have never had a Golden Antler before but the weight and the reviews here prompted me to want to pair it with this Russian bear. The Accushot 1 piece and the scope are laid out ready to go, but I might want to own a new scope for another day or two before trying it.

Any comments on this pairing are welcome!
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: on February 03, 2008, 03:55:22 PM
I had an almost exact same experience with mine. It dieseled loudly the 1st three times I shot it, but really settled down after 500 pellets. I does have some spring noise still, but is alot smoother after 1500 rounds. It is still a beast to cock though. Did you get the spare parts with it? I had some trouble with the BSA scope holding its settings, I'm going to a 4x with a/o, hoping a simpler more rugged scope will hold up to the recoil. Watch out for loose stock screws, mine loosen about every 200-300 rounds, then the gun seems to be all over the place, one good snug up and everything is back to normal. I too love the trigger feature.
Title: Re: MP513 - in .22
Post by: daveshoot on February 04, 2008, 12:33:26 AM
Yes, the spare parts kits is a very nice touch that I wish all would emulate.
I plan to degrease and loctite all screws after some break in. Same with the scope mount. I have heard of using loctite on the dovetails as well. If that doesn't hold, I might need the fancier multiscrew mounts and/or the aftermarket stops.
I was originally going to go with a Bugbuster for size, weight, and simplicity, but I like a 9x for ground squirrels and have read just enough negatives on the Bbuster to skip it this time. Seems to bring out either the love or hate in people...
There was a great blob of preservative on the latching lug and the bore was quite black. Ran quite a bit of GooGone through until it came out clean. This is probably shipping preservative also, but it will be interesting to have a look at the innards and trigger assembly outside of the stock. Probably a good bit of gummy stuff in there.

I am not hurting for air rifles now, but I would consider an MP513 in .177 for the future. The SS1000 is my small-bore velocity star at the moment but it would be nice to have one this light.

Edited to add that it would really be cool to have this in a thumbhole stock. I do not need another project right now but I can't help wondering whether it would fit in a B26-2 stock... if I ever finish the Tyrol project on the one I have, it would be interesting to apply the lessons learned and inlet one for this beast. Looks like it might just fit.
Title: RE: MP513 - in .22
Post by: hodgjy on July 23, 2008, 04:34:09 AM
I received my MP513 in .22 caliber yesterday.  Since Vince did a great job of summing up the rifle, I'll only add a few of my impressions and try my best not to repeat what was already said.

1) The stain of the stock is a lot darker than most of the pictures out there.  It's a dark stain that looks quite sharp.  It looks the same color as the MP513 that was listed in the classified section here some time ago.  The wood has some neat patterns in it with different color gradients.  It's not an unevenness of the stain--it's the wood itself.  I looks quite sharp and visually appealing.  I got the impression that the stock was hand cut and finished, rather than being made by an automatic machine, because there's some unevenness to the cuts.  There was a series of  gradual "waves" along all cut surfaces--straight and curved.  This isn't bad--it gives the impression that the rifle was handmade.  It gives it character.

2) I bought the rifle directly from EAACORP because everyone else on the planet was sold out of the .22 model.  I paid a little extra, but I didn't mind.  I needed the rifle ASAP to take care of some pests and to go on a hunting afternoon excursion with some friends.  The money saved wouldn't have done me any good while I was at home while my friends were out shooting dinner.  EAACORP packaged the rifle extremely well.  There was about zero chance of it getting damaged during shipment.

3) The front sight globe is HUGE!  I ordered a peep sight to put on the rifle, and I'll have to make sure I get a large diameter aperture or a ghost ring.  You can't really tell how huge the globe is from the pictures until you actually see the rifle in your hand.

4) This rifle is not going to win any beauty contests.  You can tell that it is a "workhorse" gun that was made by a military supplier.  There are no frills about it.  I would describe the gun as "rustic", but that has an appeal of its own.  I like it.  It's not too fancy or pretty where I'll be scared to use it out in the brush.  I won't be afraid to put a few scratches in the stock.  

5) The matte finish on the metal parts doesn't seem all that thick.  You can easily scratch it off.  I was scraping off some glue or other gunk that was left on the barrel during manufacturing and I accidently took some matte finish off.  This isn't heart-breaking because, like I said before, this rifle isn't going to win any beauty contests, but don't be surprised that some finish might come off after a hard trek through the woods, especially if you hit something hard like a rock or metal.

6) So far it seems like a great shooter.  Like Vince said before, it's a loud rifle with lots of recoil.  But, it doesn't seem or feel cheap at all.  It feels very authoritative when you shoot it.  It's works like a nicely put together machine.  I didn't find the trigger to be all that bad, but maybe I have low standards.  The first stage is very long, but I found the second stage to be rather predictable and crisp.  I actually prefer a little stiffer of a trigger since I also shoot powder burners.  I fired off about 30 shots last night with the iron sights.  I'm still sighting it in and getting a feel for the rifle (along with breaking it in), but it seems to be quite accurate so far.  I'll have a definitive answer once my peep sight arrives.  

7) All in all, I really like this rifle.  It's very rustic.  It's not fancy.  It reminds me of simpler days before the times of plastic fantastic everything.  It's not the most beautiful rifle in the world, but the combination of it's rustic character and workhorse aesthetics, it sort of makes the rifle very handsome in its own right.  It's actually not as harsh to shoot (at least to me) as others have said.

I think this will become one of my favorites.  I recommend it to anyone.  I would suggest the .22 version for hunting.  I'm sure the .177 is fine, but since I haven't handled it or shot it, I can't comment on that at all.