GTA

Gateway To Product Reviews => Non-Productive Posts => : CharlieDaTuna August 14, 2008, 11:33:37 AM

: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: CharlieDaTuna August 14, 2008, 11:33:37 AM
As many of you “early birds” know, when Gene and I originally built this forum, it was built with the intent of “Of the members, for the members” and all of us were dedicated to making it a forum better than any other forum out there. Our motto is “Ain’t this a great place to be”. It’s funny but I don’t see that motto published like it used to be. Have we forgotten??? I think that we have met with a great deal of success in striving to meet that goal and we continue to grow rapidly. And we still maintain that this is your forum not Gene’s, Peak Chicks or mine. We just administrate it. But it is your forum and we thank you. :D

However, with that said, I have received a few e-mails the last few weeks regarding the forum. As we all know, the forum has grown quite rapidly. With growth comes issues and that is to be expected and unless controlled, it can easily get out of hand. We don’t have a serious problem… well maybe one… but I feel that we need to address them early so that we maintain the integrity that we have enjoyed in the past.

To those of you that have not reviewed the rules and regulations for the GTA, I suggest that you read them. :o

Please be careful with your language and in some cases, phraseology. Most of us do not like derogatory terms. We’re not in church but we’re not in the corner bar either.:)

It seems that many people are posting anything anywhere that they happen to be. It is important that our posts are placed in the category in which it fits or applies to. Then other people can both view it in it proper area and also find it later in a search process. If you have a general discussion item, go to the “Back Room” or a Gamo post, place them in the “Gamo” forum and so on. The “Airgun” forum is a category for all guns and related item for posts that have no category and airgun info in general. Let’s not clutter it up with a bunch of stuff that is not relevant. So Please…. Do your part to make the forum as easy to navigate as possible

We used to take the time to shuffle posts around and place them in their proper forums but it does take time and we shouldn’t need to if you do your part. :o

And finally,,, in the past, it has been the policy of Gene and myself to not delete any posts and never have but rather move them to the “Non-Productive” file. However….. as of today and from this point on… any reference to MuzzleBrakes, whether the word MuzzleBrake is used or any other terminology regarding them and including construction or parts will be deleted in it’s entirety by either Peak Chick or myself along with any post responses. If that is something that you want to discuss with someone then do it outside of this forum via e-mail or what ever source you choose. Just not here. Now I’m sure there will be a couple that are going to jump up and down and cry foul or freedom of speech or whatever but if you don’t like it, I’m sorry and if that bothers you and you can’t or don’t want accept it then you can move on and go somewhere else.

OK… now you can burn my house down…lol… :D






: RE: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: melloroadman August 14, 2008, 12:04:16 PM
Thank you for protecting this forum. Marvin
: RE: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: TexasShooter72 August 14, 2008, 12:44:15 PM
No problem!  I will be paying closer attention to my postings.  Thanks!
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: DanoInTx August 14, 2008, 01:12:23 PM
The "MuzzleBrake" that Bob is referring to is NOT the type that improves accuracy, it's the type that lowers the report of the muzzle blast.  That type of appliance is considered a Class 3 weapon here in the U.S. just like a machine gun.  To own a Class 3 weapon requires a procedure involving a bunch of legal hoopla and a $200 fee. Many people do not go the legal route to purchase these sorts of appliances and in doing so are breaking the law.  To manufacture one of these appliances requires more than just the normal legal hoopla because now you're not just buying a Class 3 weapon, you are manufacturing a Class 3 weapon....again, if you don't go the legal route you are violating the law.  We try not to encourage criminal behavior in the airgun community because it can bring public focus on a sport/hobby that we all truly love.  Add criminal behavior to public focus and you get more legal restrictions and we just don't need that here in our community.  Having said all of that there are loopholes that some manufacturers use to make selling these appliances permanently affixed to the airguns they sell, making it impossible to adapt them for use on a firearm....not sure how that works, I'm no lawyer and have never played one on TV:)  I'm not perfect, don't claim to be, but I don't take pictures of the speedometer on my car when I am speeding then post them on the Internet car forums and say,"Look how fast I can go!", just not good for anyone.
: RE: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: Izzie45895 August 14, 2008, 01:23:12 PM
Well, with this statement in mind.................

Gene, please refund my payment for the MuzzleBrake that I ordered from you(via PayPal) for my R9, which was never received. Thank you for bringing this up, Bob.

Thank You,

Iz
: Question about the "thingie" on the barrel....
: Bhawanna August 14, 2008, 01:48:19 PM
we all enjoy the "bling" we adorn our guns with including the "thingie" on the end of the barrel that assist with the cocking effort on break barrels.  how do we talk about that item?....just curious because that is probably the first mod we all do to our guns....
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: Jaymo August 14, 2008, 01:57:43 PM
I was thinking about making one of those thingies from solid steel rod. That way it acts as a cocking handle AND a muzzle weight. If I ream the hole out a little small, I can shrink fit it to the barrel to act as a choke, also.
: seems like some definitions should be in order
: arathol August 14, 2008, 02:50:10 PM
A muzzle brake is a bit thats attached to the muzzle of a fire arm. Its ported to redirect propellant gases to the side away from the projectile. This improves accuracy and when the exiting gases are directed accordingly they can be used to reduce muzzle rise and recoil (this is where the brake term applies). This is how it looks in action-
 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v375/arathol/m155.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v375/arathol/?action=view¤t=m155.jpg)

As applied to airguns, a "muzzle brake" is mostly cosmetic. It does aid in cocking a spring rifle slightly, and usually protects the barrel crown from damage. On some rifles, target rifles especially, the  "muzzle brake" is actually a barrel weight to help stabilize the gun. There isn't really enough propellant gas to seriously affect recoil or muzzle rise from most airguns except the most powerful CO2 and HPA powered models. Muzzle brakes sold for installation on air rifles are perfectly legal and most on-line dealers have one sort or another in inventory.

 Whats referred to here as   "MuzzleBrake" is a   sound reduction device, referred to by some as an LDC. Any device that lowers the decibel output of a gun, be it fire-arm or air rifle, by a certain degree is by definition a LDC, and as such is not illegal but heavily regulated. It is a fire-arm in itself according to BATF, and you can legally own and use one if you shell out the    $200 for the    tax stamp each device requires. If you didn't pay the fee its illegal, just as an unregistered fire-arm is illegal. Its also just as illegal to build one, or to have in your possession the parts to build one. Technically, a Coke bottle and a roll of duct tape in the same tool box can get you jail time. To be considered an illegal device it must be capable of being removed intact and used for at least one shot from a fire-arm, even if its destroyed when the gun is fired.

Whats not a problem for airguns are shrouded barrels. A shrouded barrel is a barrel with a sound reduction chamber build around it. Its an integral part of the gun and cannot be removed. As such, its completely legal to own a shrouded gun.


: RE: Question about the "thingie" on the barrel....
: Dave1899 August 14, 2008, 03:03:16 PM


Bhawanna - 8/14/2008 9:48 PM

we all enjoy the "bling" we adorn our guns with including the "thingie" on the end of the barrel that assist with the cocking effort on break barrels. how do we talk about that item?....just curious because that is probably the first mod we all do to our guns....


I'm confused about this one...does that mean this Gamo Shadow 1000 MB is an illegal air gun and can't be discussed about here?~~~> http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=1577 (http://www.pyramydair.com/cgi-bin/model.pl?model_id=1577)



Not trying to be a smartbutt here just confused (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-surprised.gif)



David



BTW “Ain’t this a great place to be” I thought was BigBill's saying...I'll have to use it more often (http://../jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-wink.gif)



: RE: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: CharlieDaTuna August 14, 2008, 03:25:37 PM
There is no problem with discussing muzzle brakes as they a a totally different thing and like comparing apples to grapes. Muzzle brakes have nothing to do with sound suppression.
: RE: seems like some definitions should be in order
: daveshoot August 14, 2008, 03:27:32 PM
At least the Germans have learned to be more considerate of the neighbors.

http://talks.guns.ru/forums/icons/forum_pictures/001402/thm/1402075.jpg


sorry in advance...
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: gunsup0331 August 14, 2008, 03:45:26 PM
I going to take a wild guess by assuming that some of my posts are indirectly responsible for this topic and i apologize.  I will regulate the content of my posts more strictly.

Oh off topic but pertinent to a previous post: The registration of firearms is not regulated by the federal govt, its a state thing. Just so no one gets confused. AZ does not require registration for firearms that you aquire privately, dont know about buying one new though.
 Sound reduction devices are Federally regulated  (by the BATFE clowns aka ATF for short)

: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: derekmcminn August 14, 2008, 03:48:15 PM
Now I'm really confused.

It seems that the first post is contradicted by the post above.
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: PeakChick August 14, 2008, 04:04:37 PM
I'll add a bit of clarifcation.  Muzzle Brake, designed to aid accuracy, reduce muzzle flip, act as a barrel weight or as a cocking aid is perfectly legal and fair game to discuss. The spirit of Bob's post is that we want to avoid any discussion of devices, homemade, or professionally produced that act as sound reduction devices. Yes, if one has gone through the proper BATF licensing and payment of appropriate fees, great, good for you. Please discuss your legally obtained and owned sound reduction device on the forum for of owners of said devices (surely there is one... LOL ) . What the spirit of this post is intended is to avoid any discussion of illegally produced or owned devices and the potential bad publicity and legal entanglements it could draw to our sport, our forum and our members.
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: DanoInTx August 14, 2008, 04:09:59 PM
PeakChick - 8/14/2008  11:04 PM
 What the spirit of this post is intended is to avoid any discussion of illegally produced or owned devices and the potential bad publicity and legal entanglements it could draw to our sport, our forum and our members.

Amen Sister!

Oh yea, almost forgot,"Aint this a great place to be!".
: DEREK
: melloroadman August 14, 2008, 04:10:59 PM
It is the conversion of the legal to the illegal that they do not want us talking about . Or the making of the illegal here . And when I say illegal I mean with out the proper certification. And if you have the proper paper work talk about it in private .Marvin
: RE: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: Big_Bill August 14, 2008, 04:24:31 PM


Thanks for the reminder Bob,



We should refresh our knowledge of the Forum Rules, from time-to-time !



But if we all follow the Golden Rule, and do not discuss illegal, against the law topics, this Forum will run as it was intended.



And I know that WE ALL want this Forum to remain " The GREAT PLACE TO BE, THAT IT HAS ALLWAYS BEEN !".

THE GTA FORUMS IS A GREAT PLACE TO BE, AND ALLWAYS WILL BE !

Thanks Bob,

Bill

: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: gunsup0331 August 14, 2008, 04:29:18 PM
Sorry if my post confused you derek, i just noticed a generalization in Arathols post about firearm registration, I did not want anyone to misconstrue that bit as it is unrelated to the main topic at hand.

Ok...back on course.
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: jeep98 August 14, 2008, 05:47:12 PM
As per MuzzleBrakes, if you make one you can be charged with illegal possession and also the manufacturer of.    Ain't this a great place to be! Jeep98
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: howie1a August 15, 2008, 01:23:51 AM
Can you come up with what is a legal muzzel break we can make/ use or buy a description or picture so we will know without question what is ok, a print or picture would be great ,I have a muzzel break off a crosman that has 2 set screws to attach it to the rifle and a exit opening  smaller than barrel dia. but larger than the pellet dia. on the end where the pellet exits is their a problem with this design after all it is made by crosman and any copy  of this style would be what legal or not also if it has side holes does that change it? howie
: Bob,Gene I am truly sorry !!
: bbgunbob August 15, 2008, 01:41:40 AM
I did not mean to cause a problem with/on GTA forum.I admit to using bad judgment when I made my post to Timmy.DUH !! Maybe old age or just a brain fart but at any rate I did not mean to cause such a fuss.
I hope I can be forgiven and continue to be a productive member of this forum.
I will from this time forward THINK_THINK_THINK before any posts are made.


Again I Apoligize for my mistake.
BBGun Bob

Darth Vader Called!! I joined the Dark Side.
: RE: Bob,Gene I am truly sorry !!
: RainDog August 15, 2008, 01:53:48 AM

 I would certainly doubt that you're the only member here who suspects that CDT's message was aimed at them personally.

 Good luck,
 Parks
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: howie1a August 15, 2008, 02:34:51 AM
this has me thinking maybe i should take my rifles with mMB's and cut the MB's flush with the end of the barrel as they are mostly decorative or a little past the barrel end something like a flash hider I think that is legal what do you think howie the only thing is I feel that the MB helps accutacy
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: gunsup0331 August 15, 2008, 03:07:07 AM
howie1a - 8/15/2008  7:34 AM

this has me thinking maybe i should take my rifles with mMB's and cut the MB's flush with the end of the barrel as they are mostly decorative or a little past the barrel end something like a flash hider I think that is legal what do you think howie the only thing is I feel that the MB helps accutacy


 Please dont do this, i am quite sure that unless your MBs were designed (very spefically) to silence, they are perfectly legal and you should continue shooting as accurately and as good-looking as possible!
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: RainDog August 15, 2008, 03:15:54 AM

 Oh geez... no, don't do that.

 I'd just keep the subject out of circulation 'til the dogs get tired, y'know?

 Later!
 Parks
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: PeakChick August 15, 2008, 03:24:43 AM
Wow guys and girls, I think we are beating this one to death. Once again, a muzzle brake, designed to reduce muzzle flip, aid accuracy, act as a barrel weight, or as a cocking aid is perfectly legal. Many air rifles and powder burners come with legal muzzle brakes that are ported in many different configurations, and yes many extend beyond the end of the actual muzzle crown or end. The key here is SOUND REDUCTION, this subject and discussion of devices that are intended for that purpose are forbidden by forum rules.

btw: Ain't this a great place to be?   :D
: WOW! TO ALL SHROUDED AF CONDORS THEN!!!
: tonaka August 15, 2008, 03:54:30 AM
IF that is the case, then what aout all those shrouded AF Condors. As far as I understand many of them made professionally, are not just simple shrouds aka frame extantions. Those are some serious devices with a lot of buffles inside. And they do attach to frames like the "thingy". I suppose they could easily test one of those on fireams and it could work. Or am I totally wrong?  What do you think Condor owners?
: RE: WOW! TO ALL SHROUDED AF CONDORS THEN!!!
: preez August 15, 2008, 04:05:08 AM
Well, this thread started good with message from Bob, but mutated somewhere along the way. I think it's time to put it on ice in the non-productive section...
: RE: WOW! TO ALL SHROUDED AF CONDORS THEN!!!
: RainDog August 15, 2008, 04:25:20 AM

 Heck, preez...

 This thread is throwin' the doors wide open on what the individual members here are made of. You get to see who shows wise restraint, who is impulsive. You see easily who stands up for themselves, and who is content to wander around the forum with brown stuff on their noses. It's easy to see who conforms and who rebels. A little psychological drama, y'know?

 I guess it's easy to see who trivializes, too! haha

 Anyway... I just dropped by to see the show!

 Have a good one!
 Parks
: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: jeep98 August 15, 2008, 05:29:11 AM
Come on you guys. too many running around like democrats with their head cut off. Reread PeakChicks point above. She is giving the valid points. In firearms there are Muzzlebrakes, Flash Suppressors and MuzzleBrakes. MuzzleBrakes are strictly licensed. Flash Suppressors are still verbotten,
I believe,  while Muzzlebrakes are allowed. Muzzlebrakes just redirect gases and noise in any direction , even sometime unbearably toward the shooter. No MuzzleBrakes on any firearm or airgun without the $200.00 license. See some AR-15 rifle forums for confirmation, check the Federal Laws, just quit cackling. Jeep98
: ENOUGH !
: Big_Bill August 15, 2008, 05:50:07 AM


I find it hard to believe that the members of this forum can not comprehend the message Bob has posted.



If the device changes the sound output, and does not come from the factory that way, do not mention it on the forum. It will be deleted.



Read the forum RULES and Please comply with them. The GTA FORUMS ARE A GREAT PLACE TO BE ! So Please keep it that way !



Now Please END this Squabbling.



Bill

: THE RULES
: yourdaddyjoe August 15, 2008, 06:37:44 PM
I searched “Muzzle Brake” across the whole ATF site and found no references.

Here is the Rule that some are quoting and getting mixed up in terminology. A “Muzzle Brake” is not a “$ilent$er”.

(M30) Are Paintball and/or Airgun
S ound Suppressers NFA firearms?
The terms "firearm $ilent$er" and
"firearm muffler" mean any device for
silencing, muffling, or diminishing the
report of a portable firearm, including
any combination of parts, designed or
redesigned, and intended for use in
assembling or fabricating a firearm
$ilent$er or firearm muffler, and any
part intended only for use in such
assembly or fabrication.
Numerous paintball and airgun $ilent$er
tested by ATF’s Firearms
Technology Branch have been determined
to be, by nature of their design
and function, firearm $ilent$er.
Because $ilent$er are NFA weapons,
an individual wishing to manufacture
or transfer such a $ilent$er must receive
prior approval from ATF and
pay the required tax. See Questions
M15 and 16 for application details.
If I have any further questions as
to the classification of a paintball
or airgun $ilent$er, who should I
c ontact?
Please send a written request to
ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch.
[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(24), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a),
27 CFR 479.11]
Page 190

ATF Reference:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/p53004.pdf

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_brake
Please pay attention to the last sentence in “Legality”.
Contents
•   1 Terminology
•   2 Concept
•   3 Construction
•   4 Utility
o   4.1 Advantages of muzzle brakes
o   4.2 Disadvantages of muzzle brakes
•   5 Legality
•   6 See also
•   7 References
•   8 External links
: RE: GTA
: shadow August 16, 2008, 12:11:47 AM
It's about a passion for airgun's , tuning,hunting, target practice and modding em. We take all that and share it with the GTA family freely and it's been that way since the start of this GREAT FORUM. :) I've never got caught up in the politic's and term's of muzzlebrakes and other object's that will not be mentioned on this GREAT FORUM. :) You see when one get's wrapped up in this they could be out shootin oor hunting instead of  testing the water's of GTA's rules. It's very simple really read the rules, please don't gloss over them just to join. This is a ONE OF A KIND PLACE! with alot of GREAT  and helpfull guy's and gal's and we WELCOME all who have the passion for airgun's and want to be part of something special. Family, that's what we are and it's family that really count's . :) GTA is A GREAT PLACE TO BE!!!!!!! and when you join this GREAT PLACE remember your part of something GREAT and we hope that it's treated as such. :) Ok everyone get out and shoot your babies, AIN'T THIS A GREAT PLACE TO BE!!!!!!!!!! :)  :D  8) Ed
: RE: THE RULES
: Big_Bill August 16, 2008, 03:51:17 AM


Hello Joe,



You have posted a partial definition by the ATF. It states that any item that changes, alters, or quiets the report of a weapon. Now many people call these devices by many, many names, some call them MuzzleBreaks, and some, LDC's, while others call them "muzzle breaks". Any item that changes the report of a weapon is not welcome here ! And will be deleted....



Call them what you will, but if they fall into the above category, they are illegal, and are not allowed to be discussed here.



The GTA IS A GREAT PLACE TO BE, LETS MAKE IT BETTER, The GTA Family are GREAT People, and I know want a GREAT FORUM to call home !



It's no imposition of anyone, to watch their language and refrain talking about items that change the report of any weapon or airgun.



Remember, with the law, you can buy an illegal item, and be charged for possession of it. Ignorance of the Law is NO excuse, ever ! So I would watch out for airguns that come with these devices, as they may be illegal, by the LAW ! DO YOU FEEL LUCKY TODAY?



Bill

: Re: ALL MEMBERS PLEASE READ THIS
: yourdaddyjoe August 16, 2008, 04:17:52 AM
Bill,

Again... Terminology... like calling all soft drinks "Cokes"... I posted the definition from Wikipedia to help the family members know there is a difference. Look at Bob's = Charlie's 2nd post in this thread.

I was hoping that other family members here would look at the rules and make an educated decision ending "Ignorance" as you state. The link provided in my former post would help clear things up. It leads to the ATF site which is in PDF format and searchable.

I also found out that if you use the word Silence*. the software to this forum automaticly changes it to muzzlebrak*. Hence causing more confusion. I simply copied and pasted the ATF M30 Question and ruling and the Forum Software changed every instance of "Silence*" to "Muzzlebrak*.  It's like using a online translator... They change the words and sometimes get it wrong and then you loose the full meaning of the phrase and point you were translating.

Again... Apples v. Oranges. + the added confusion of miscommunication via automatic editing software.... = Mass Confusion and bad tempers.

“Ain’t this a great place to be”. and yes... sometimes family members don't see eye to eye.