Author Topic: CFX tune-general tuning questions  (Read 3992 times)

Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
CFX tune-general tuning questions
« on: May 11, 2009, 10:26:44 AM »
My CFX started losing power, and while I do not have a chronograph, based on ballistics graphs from chairgun, I estimate the velocity had dropped to about 500 fps w/ an 8.2g pellet. I looked at the spring after removing the stock, and it looked strange to me, kind of bunched up in places. I decided to disassemble and do a tune. pulling it apart was uneventful, but the first thing I noticed was that the spring was intact, although bent a bit at the trigger end. The power loss culprit was noted to be a 1 mm blow out of the seal at the 9 o'clock position (as if I was looking down the barrel). I do recall one shoot about a month ago that sounded like a 22 going off, and this rifle has never stopped producing a hint of white smoke for at least 1500 rounds. There was a lot of lube inside the gun. I can't tell if there was a catastrophic failure of the seal, or if there was a small crack/scratch, which allowed the venting of hot gases and eventually melted it away.

My questions are:
1. is it normal for the spring to developed a slight kink in it? did this developed because of slop in the guide?

2. Is it  normal for a bit of dieseling to continue to occur for a long as it did?

3. What should a healthy spring look like inside the gun?  I would assume an even, consistent coil pattern.

4. What do you use for deburing and polishing of all the rough metal in the spring chamber, etc

Offline daved

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2093
    • http://
RE: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2009, 12:09:18 PM »
Wow, at only 500 fps I would have expected a busted spring for sure.  I've been there before with a CFX, had one that liked to eat springs every couple thousand pellets.  Fixed that by installing a Theoben gas ram.  I'll answer your questions first, then make more comments :-).

1. Yes and yes.
2. Not typical but not unheard of, either.
3. Your assumption is correct.
4. Small needle files, a Dremel tool with grinding and polishing points, and various grades of wet/dry sandpaper, both freehand and with a custom made pilot for the compression chamber.

Like I said, I've been there, twice.  First, when the factory spring broke after less than 2000 pellets.  Second time was post tune with a Maccarri spring, the second one partially collapsed after less than 1500 pellets.  Then, to add insult to injury, it developed a sealing problem with the rotary breech oring.  It took awhile, but I finally got it sorted out, and came up with a couple of techniques that are specific to the CFX.  And as previously mentioned, I replaced the spring with a gas ram, well before PA was offering the Air Venturi units.

Most of the basics of tuning a springer have been covered very well elsewhere, but there is one item specific to the CFX that needs a little extra attention, and that's the rotary breech.  When I honed my compression chamber, I mostly followed standard practice, but I took it to 400 grit instead of the more typical 320.  Once that was done, I made up a special paper holder that was just slightly longer than the rotary, and polished just the end of the chamber where the rotary rides to 1500 grit.  That was the finest I could find locally, I'd have gone 2000 if I could have found it.  My theory was that an oring seal works best and lasts longest with the finest polish you can get, while the piston seal needs a little "tooth" to work best, just like the rings in a car engine.  Don't know if I was right, but I do know that that rifle ended up incredibly consistent right at 15 fpe, and was a dream to shoot.  I gave that rifle to my little bro a couple of years ago, who then sold it to a friend.  I'm hoping I can talk that friend into trading it back to me for a Diana 48 I got recently.  Need I say more about my opinion of that CFX ;-)?

If you're going to tune it yourself, order the parts from Maccarri.  I'd recommend a spring and piston seal, and here's another place I'm going to fly counter to common practice.  DON'T order the E 3650 or Tarantula that most recommend.  The 3650 is too long and skinny IMO, and likely to kink.  The Tarantula is just too heavy, it might net a little more power but it makes the gun harsh, again IMO.  However, if you do decide to use the Tarantula, get the Tesla seal.  It's a little bigger and stiffer, and might help tame the Tarantula a bit.  Otherwise, I'd suggest the Ultra XLD and the standard Apex piston seal.  That combo, with a good deburr and lube, should net you a very smooth, comfortable shooter that will still put the right pellet down range in the 850-900 fps range.  BTW, the Ultra XLD spring fits the factory guide almost like it was made for it.  If you have the ability to make a new guide, great, but if not, that spring and the stock guide works great.  Worst case, you might need to shrink wrap the guide.  And while you're at it, get a set of JM's "Old school buttons" and button the piston.  That's about the only thing I didn't do to my CFX, and if I get it back, it will be the first thing I do.  Later.

Dave

Offline dnttech

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2009, 12:44:39 PM »
Very, very well written, Dave....Nice job.
Bob


Offline fisherdude

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
    • http://
RE: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2009, 03:05:42 PM »
daved seems to be right on.  I just finished a lube/tune on my CFX.  The hardest part for me was getting the rotary breech and o-ring back inside.  I did a lot of deburring to get the o-ring in without chewing it up.  The CFX is a great rifle well worth the effort.  My spring is bent some but I am still using it.  My seal had been sliced up by burrs when hte rifle was originally manufactured.
NRA Life Member

Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
RE: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2009, 04:28:35 PM »
got parts from rich in mich. His standard tune kit is a cuustom guide, tarantula spring, oem piston seal, and new large o ring for the rotary breach. I deburred with small files and 400 wet dry. wasnt planning on messing with the compression chamber. the oring on the breach is my greatest concern with regards to re seating. It seems so dang tight. Any hints for getting the oring past all those openings in the spring chamber?

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2009, 07:00:53 PM »
I debur slightly diffrent to what everyone easle seems to....I run a lathe deburing tool around the slots...
then use a round flapper wheel in the drill up and down the slot end...being soft it conforms the the slot
and removes the edges as well as smoothing any screw holes etc...real quick and a smooth job..no scrathing
around for god know how long with files & a dremmel..
for the breech O ring I went 1 section larger "section = fatter"  took a bit to get it in..use rubber grease
on it ..its made for the job way better than any other lube for rubber....
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2009, 12:29:08 AM »
kIwi,
by rubber grease, do you mean silicon grease?

what grit flapper wheel? What diameter flapper wheel? do you have some sort of extension mandrel for it to reach all the way forward to the end of the slotted area?


Thanks for the info

Offline daved

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2093
    • http://
RE: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2009, 03:53:01 PM »
I just made sure all those openings were carefully deburred, lubed JUST THE OUTSIDE of the oring with silicone grease (I use dielectric grease from my local NAPA, divers grease would also work), then used a small, dulled screwdriver to help ease it past the end of the slots.  Just go slow, you should be fine.  Later.

Dave

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2009, 06:28:09 PM »
Quote
mthomas - 5/13/2009  12:29 AM

kIwi,
by rubber grease, do you mean silicon grease?

what grit flapper wheel? What diameter flapper wheel? do you have some sort of extension mandrel for it to reach all the way forward to the end of the slotted area?


Thanks for the info


no...rubber grease and silicon grease are diffrent animals...rubber grease is to lube rubber..IE..seals/cup seals/O ring etc...
you will most ligthly fined it at places that sell oil seal / car brake parts etc....I will post a pic..the one
I use is made by PBR who make car brake componets...

flapper wheel is a 80 grit any finer and it starts to polish.... its 32mm 1 1/4" dia... You can spin them in a hand drill against a bench
grinder to reduce the dia....I bored a length of 10mm rod & held it in with a 4mm grub screw "set scew"....

Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline daved

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2093
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 01:19:14 AM »
Gonna disagree with Kiwi here, big time.  80 grit is MUCH too coarse for anything but the most chewed up comp tubes.  And if it's that messed up, you probably can't tune it, anyway.  I usually start around 120 and work up from there.  Check with some tuners, I think you'll find most go with around a 320 grit final hone.  This is still a LONG way from polished, for that, you need to be in the 1500-2000 grit range, and spend a lot of time there.  Also, I think if you check the ingredients on your rubber lube, Kiwi, you'll find it's silicone.  I have a tube of silicone grease in my shop, specifically for brake components :-).  Later.

Dave

Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 07:47:13 AM »
THanks for all the help guys. Easy gun to work on, hardest part is coming up with adequate tools. waiting on seal for final assembly.

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
Daved
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 07:01:03 PM »
Quote
daved - 5/15/2009  1:19 AM

Gonna disagree with Kiwi here, big time.  80 grit is MUCH too coarse for anything but the most chewed up comp tubes.  And if it's that messed up, you probably can't tune it, anyway.  I usually start around 120 and work up from there.  Check with some tuners, I think you'll find most go with around a 320 grit final hone.  This is still a LONG way from polished, for that, you need to be in the 1500-2000 grit range, and spend a lot of time there.  Also, I think if you check the ingredients on your rubber lube, Kiwi, you'll find it's silicone.  I have a tube of silicone grease in my shop, specifically for brake components :-).  Later.

Dave


with in any grit rateing there is a range of finished efects dependent on speed and pressure.....
i can go from dul grey to a polish with 80 grit..fast with a lot of pressure and yer get a polish

the rubber grease I use is a Caster based product....there is also a lanolin based rubber grease also..
90% of greases recomend there product for use on rubber/plastic etc
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2009, 12:59:03 AM »
all put back together last night, took one test shoot outside, very smoothbut sounded like a .22 going off. i doubt it pushed an 8.3gn pellet supersonic, so i'm assuming detonation occured. My neighbors will probably freak if it does this some more, so i will experiment some more  later today out away from everyone.

I dont understand why thiis would occur. I was very carefull with lube placement, and used minimal amounts. Is it common to get  some detonation the first couple rounds? Isit possible a new seal spring combo could push that large a pellet over 1100fps

Offline kiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1410
    • http://www.nzairgunners.com
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »
With the CFX you can get the rimfire sound buy not putting the pellet in all the way and bending the skirt
when closeing the breach..bad seal and loud bang....but it dosen't take much lube to detanate....
Kiwi

Spring guide sets...  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Members/Listings.aspx?
http://www.nzairgunners.com

If guns are outlawed ONLY outlaws will have guns

A tin of Gamo pellets is like a box of chocs U never know what yer going to get.....



Offline mthomas

  • GTA Donations
  • ******
  • Posts: 24
    • http://
Re: CFX tune-general tuning questions
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2009, 06:47:25 PM »
took a while to get back to this. next am found a place with no neighbors. gun was quiet, dead on and smooth. i have never shoot a tuned air rifle before, what a change.  Minimal torque,  a sound like setting a book down hard on a table, and the thwap of the impact. This gun could only be improved by a better shooter being at the  trigger.

As an aside, I do not understand why the mass produced guns are not assembled with a bit more care. With the right tools, and a bit of experience it seems that this result could be had with very little extra time on the part of the factory. add fifty bucks to the price and people would have a great entry level AG.