pellet selection/debate

my freind and I have been taking out squirrels quite well with crossman premier hollow points. he recently swithed to the pellets with a bb tip his reasoning being increased penetration, which is true it goes an inch deeper than the others (we use a 5 lb ball of plumbers putty). the pellets shot about 2 inches high from my gun which I sighted in with premiers. is this from the increased speed?  my thinking is that the bb point is too much penetration and no expantion is either of us correct or is it just preferance? what are your thoughts?

Put it this way if you shoot  two pellets of different design that weigh the same and are shot at the same speed the one that goes the LEAST amount into your putty gave up it's energy the quickest, and that is the pellet with the most hitting power.

[daved]

A similar question came up on the YF in response to a post re: .177 vs. .22.  The concern was overpenetration, and the feeling that .177's are prone to overpenetrate and not transfer energy.  Someone (Jeff, maybe?) came up with what I felt was a definitive answer.  Their position was that every game animal they'd ever taken where the pellet had gone all the way through was invariably a kill.  The discussion on the YF was comparing "1000 fps" .177's to mid-power .22's.  Whoever it was was far less concerned about energy transfer, pellet expansion, etc.  Always keep in mind, we're using a very energy limited weapon when it comes to hunting.  After all, a typical .22 LR produces 100+ fpe, and the best of our spring guns is under 30 fpe.  And the .22 LR is well known for overpenetrating, yet it's probably taken more game, up to and including deer, than all the larger caliber hunting rifles combined.  HTH.

Dave

Just remembered, it was JP Shelton that came up with that answer.

[longislandhunter]

I'll be the first to admit that math is certainly not one of my skills, neither is physics, both of which have to do with fully understanding things such as energy transfer, FPE etc,,,,, so with that said I will simply say I don't mind if the pellet, be it .22 or .177 does happen to do a complete "pass through" as long as it passes through the right area of the animal.  If my pellet passes through the vital organ areas and in the process takes out a lung, liver, or even better the heart, then I will be placing that game animal in my game bag.  

I do an awful lot of bowhunting, my other hunting passion in life, and I know without a doubt the razor sharp broadheads I'm using are about as deadly a weapon as one could ask for,,,,, provided you hit the right area. If I hit a deer in the vital area with that broadhead I know the shot will be lethal, even if it's a complete pass through which happens all the time.  On the other hand, a couple of years ago I hit a buck to high, right in that area between the vital zone and the spine, where there's nothin  but meat and muscle.  The arrow went completely through the animal and buried itself in the dirt on the opposite side of the deer.  I tracked that deers blood trail for over 1 1/2 miles during the rest of the day until the blood dried up and I finally had to give up. Don't you know about 2 weeks later I saw the same buck feeding in a field near my stand.  The wound had healed and he was just fine.  

Anyway, I realize pellets and broadheads are two completely different things, and I'm not saying that a small game animal suffering a bad pass through shot won't die, I'm just saying that I feel that a pass through in the correct area will usually result in placing the animal in your game pouch. A pass through in a non lethal area will usually result in the animal scampering off and the hunter not finding it again.  I think it's simply a matter of shot placement getting the highest priority.  

Anyway, just my opinion.  If I'm wrong it certainly wouldn't be the first time and no doubt won't be the last.  

Jeff

[shadow]

I agree with Jeff, SHOT PLACEMENT is the key. We's hunt with dem airrifles. I'd rather make a extra airhole through my game then knock em out. Check out the HUNTING GATE, proofs in the puddin, mmm rabbit puddin hehehe. Ed

[Black Mamba]

Shot placement is the key.

I've proved it to myself several times over.

Also, on the "BB pellet" issue.   I'd imagine you are refering to Gamo Rockets.   I have used them somewhat extensively and have found that the BB is almost always seperated from the pellet up on impact regardless of the target.  The Rocket rounds are also heavier than the CPHP rounds.   If they are shooting higher out of your gun at X distance I would think it's merely a different trajectory based on pellet shape and weight up to a certain distance (I've found it to be 35 yards) and then they will show the characteristics of their weight by dropping faster.

Thanks for all your help guys I'll continue to try different things. I've been practicing alot and reading alot this site is outstanding. I've been taking my gun to work and shooting during lunch not exactly a bench ( paint bucket, water heater and a sand bag) but its all thats available. p.s. shadow thats a tasty lookin rabbit with the red moustache!! nice work

[shadow]

Thanks guy, practice makes perfect and Im having bunny for dinner tommorrow. Keep shootin and :) hunting. Ed

[Big_Bill]

Hello Men,

I thought about entering into this coversation, as being a new be and all, I hope you don't think that I am pushy.

But the point of any projectile, be it bullet, pellet, or broadhead is to destroy the vital organs of the target.

Here we have two approaches to hunting, accuracy and/or organ distruction. Accuracy requires the shooter to hit the vital organs to destroy the organs.

The other is for the projectile to aid in the destruction of the organs, meaning hollow points, frangible or fragmentary projectiles, or explosive projectiles. These aid in destroying tissue and organs when shot placement is less than desired.

For hollow points to accomplish its design, it must open to a greater diameter and/or fragment, leaving a greater wound channel to damage or destroy the targets tissue and organs. But it must reach the organs or tissues to be destoryed. If it does not reach the organs, it fails in its design.
 

As for the fragmentary or explosive projectiles, the placement of the "bullet" must be at or too the organs, if they pass through, they would not perform their function.
 

 When a prolectile, bullet or pellet, passes through the animal, it fails to transmit all of its energy into the target, causing it to be less benefical in hunting, unless it has passed through the desired organs.

The benifet of a projectile passing through the target, is that it provides a double blood trail, in some cases, for the hunter to follow, hopefully finding the animal dead from loss of blood.

Archery with its razor sharp broad head is made to remain in the animal, cutting everything around it, in and out, back and forth. Cutting vains and arteries as the animal moves. Again when the arrow passes through, it can nolonger help in the destruction of tissue and organs. Unless it has passed through the heart and lungs, or other major organs.
 

Many factors come to play with animals and projectiles, all of these factors must be considered, plus the indvidual animals will to surive.

I have read of great encounters with the big five in Africa since I was a small boy, and have hunted as often as I could, applying these factors to the game that I hunted.

That is why I asked about Possumes with a .177 cal. pellet, I had poor results, and needed to find a better projectile for that job.    

And I must say that I received a great wealth of information and knowledge from our membership, and I truly thank each of you that have helped me.
 

Hope this helps, its a bit more complicated than this though.

Bill
 

I will have to disagree with Big Bill.  I have been an archer and bow hunter since the age of about 6 yrs.  Compound bow hunting with broad heads, you want pass through, cut as many vitals as possible.  If the arrow does not pass through, you hit bone and the animal will suffer.  If you hit vitals with a compound bow or any bow with 35 lb. pull or more with sharp broad heads you will have pass through.

By the way I'm 48 yrs. old.  If a bow hunter has a bow and arrow combination, that will not pass through a whitetail deer.  He needs to buy a bow manufactured by a company other than Fisher Price!!

Good Luck,

Perry

[longislandhunter]

I agree Perry,,, I've been bowhunting for over 30 years and a pass through with a broadhead in the vitals area is the best case scenario, except of course for a spine shot if you are lucky enough to get one.  Anyway, a double lung pass through shot, or any pass through shot in the vital area gives the added benefit of giving you an arrow exit point, hopefully lower than the entry point, to facilitate a good blood trail as blood leaves the animal as it exits the area.  

I have on occassion over the years had an arrow stick in a deer that I've hit, and I've recovered those deer, but most times a hit like that doesn't provided an optimal blood trail.  The other advantage to a pass through is that you get to recover your arrow so you can examine it, which tells you volumes about the location your arrow hit and what kind of internal damage it did.  

I don't normally blood trail small game animals that I've hit with an air gun, although that could come into play in some instances, but I don't mind if a pellet passes through a small game animal as long as it passes through the right area and takes out a vital organ or two in the process.

Jeff

[shadow]

Well I thought about jumping back into this subject but then I realized that I could be out air rifle hunting, putting shot's into KILL zone's and posting hunt pic's hehe. :) hunting guys, Ed

thanks guys I have realized that its not what other guys use or whats popular but its all about accuracy and my gun so far is tellin' me it likes the taste of the crossman hp's !!!!!
oh by the way shadow as soon as I get this thing happy I'll try to post some pics of my own. until then I'll just admire yours.
Thanks again  George

[Big_Bill]

Hello,
I did not enter into this discussion to cause an argument, or to brag.
I will try to answer this the best way that I can.
First, I love my Fisher Price Bow!
Secondly, I have a Jennings Compoung with a 45#-65# range, a Hoyt Pro Hunter that is 67# at my draw length of 32". I shoot Black Diamond Broad heads, 125 gr. for deer and 135 gr. for larger game. I love Black Diamond Broad heads !

As for my comments, I pointed out that "it was a bit more complicated than this though".
I did not wish to go into bow hunting, to deeply, as you pointed out , there are many variables involved.
And this being an Air Gun Forum, I kept mostly to bullets and pellets.

To make this as simple as I can, many factors come into play when hunting with a bow, as I said in my reply to geb2112, accuracy is the most important of these factors. If you can allways place a perfect shot through the heart and lung of your target, you would not need a broad head. But if your like the rest of us, sometimes something goes wrong, the animal moves, is spooked by the sound of the bow or arrow, or some other reason.
I have driven through ribs, with the arrow still in the dear, and collected him within 150 yards, the arrow finished its' job. And I have put arrows straight through the dear, all they did was look for what had stung them. Of these dear, some bolted, and died on the spot, some ran off, looking for what happened, and died 200 yards away.

I have found that every deer is different, and that every animal deals differently in there responses.

Perry, I stand by my statement on broad heads, they are designed to remain within th animal were they do their job.
Accuracy is allways the bigest factor for clean kills, but when shot placement is not achieved, the broad head is better inside the animal, than on the ground. And as for blood trails, I remember a black bear I put an arrow clean through, the guide couldn't find a blood trail and told me I missed. Well I followed his trail looking at almost every leaf that I found turned over, and about 200 yards in I found the first little drop, well about 125 yards further in I found him, and not much blood there either. I seems that animals loose fitting hides don't allways align with the hole in their body, not allowing blood flow from their bodies, leaving little or no blood trail.

I hope that you can agree with this as I instructed the archery course for Penna. Bow hunting licence classes.
That doesn't mean that I can't be wrong, but I'm not, I checked.

Bill

[longislandhunter]

Hi Bill,

Please don't feel that you've caused an argument, I do not believe that to be the case.  You are obviously an accomplished sportsman and hunter and your views, information and offered advise are always welcome, after all, we are all here to become better airgunners and part of that entails learning from one another.  You are correct, this is an airgun forum so I agree with you that we would probably be better off sticking to airgun topics and leave the bowhunting opinions for a bowhunting forum.  

I look forward to your next posts and if you hunt I always enjoy looking at small game pics :)

Take care and good shooting.

Jeff