Author Topic: .22 Cal Gamo's?  (Read 4036 times)

Offline Gene_SC

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.22 Cal Gamo's?
« on: August 16, 2006, 11:36:06 PM »
How many of you have been able to acquire a .22 gamo of any model?  I am sure all of us Gamo lovers know that when the surplus of Gamo .22 run out there will be no more new ones available.

I also have seen posts where people have heard that other Air Guns Company's may stop the sale of .22 in the US also. Has anyone heard of this and if so what do you think?


Gene
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
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Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
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Offline vinceb

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RE: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 05:24:03 AM »
Midsouth and South Summit no longer have the 220 available... I think I'm just gonna keep my B19 in .22 - sure glad I got it running well...

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RE: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 05:25:27 AM »
I just ordered a Shadow .22cal. from airgun supply and it is due in today or tomorrow. I already have a 1250 .22cal. and LOVE IT!!!!!

Offline rabbit

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RE: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2006, 06:00:18 AM »
Gene,

     I have a 2006 model catalog for RWS and Beeman. They both still list .22 cal. rifles in there normal productions. I sure hope they keep marketing them in the U. S.

                                              Rabbit    :)  :)
Rabbit

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RE: I wouldn't be surprised.....
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2006, 08:41:35 AM »
Gene:

I wouldn't be shocked if other airgun companies followed Gamo's lead and only offered stuff in .177.

Most folks who buy this stuff aren't into it as seriously as we are, and many come from a firearms background where the tendency is to equate power with velocity.

At the time that Beeman sold his company to S/R Industries in 1993, .20 had just become their top-selling air rifle caliber.  That makes sense, because Robert Beeman was a staunch advocate of the caliber and remains so today.  He was able to articulate why he believed it was better in the field that .177 or .22 and enough of us believed him enough to be swayed in that direction.  But it took nearly a decade for Beeman's message to stick enough with his customer base to make .20 for a brief moment in history his company's top seller.

The current management at Beeman doesn't push .20 so hard.  They don't do the "education" that Robert Beeman did.  Hardly surprising that he would, given his background in academia.  
I don't think the current company bothers to do much education of jobbers and mass merchants and they certainly don't push .20 as hard with retail customers as Robert Beeman did and still does on his personal website.

Now, 13 years after Beeman sold the company, the bulk of the company's air rifle sales are in .177 again.  We see stuff with the Beeman name on it that very likely wouldn't have the Beeman name on it if Beeman himself still had direct control of what it was used on.  We also see it being sold in places where it wouldn't have been sold before.

The old management relied on knowledgeable specialty stores to educate customers and to adequately explain features, advantages, and benefits.  The current management relys on mass mecrchant retailers where the folks selling the goods often don't know much about them.  Without a voice for the bigger calibers, the casual user of airguns -which is where most of the market is- goes for that "up to 1,000 ft/s" almost every time.

While I am a huge fan of the .20, having been brainwashed by Beeman during my formative years before the age of majority, I do believe that advances in ammo have made the .177 more viable in the field than Robert Beeman and other airgun enthusiasts give it credit for.

The fact of the matter is that the flatter trajectory you get with .177, coupled with pellets with high ballistic coeffecients, result in a spring-piston rifle that is easier to hit with at range and delivers just as much energy, for all practical purposes, as the same rifle in .20 or .22 would.

In my own shooting, when I know the shots are going to be long, I use my .177 R-9 instead of the .20 because it shoots flat enough to have a point-blank range of 50 yards with Copperheads or CPL's, assuming a 1" KZ.  I know it kills jackrabbits very dead because I've killed plenty of them very dead with it, and other species besides.

If .20 wasn't available as an option, I'd be inclined to shoot .177 as my main caliber.  The only thing I'd really need a larger caliber for is turkey hunting, and that is really just to comply with the current regulations in my home state, which prohibit the use of .177 on turkey.  I'm pretty confident that if my .20 R-9 will kill a turkey at 45 yards with a head shot (which it has) that my .177 R-9 could do likewise.

The market has basically spoken.  .177 far outsells the other common smallbore air rifle calibers here in the USA.  Gamo can probably get of rid every .177 air rifle they bring over here.  Dittos for RWS.  I suspect that .22 does a lot of time sitting around and not much time moving through the distribution system to the end user's hands.  If that is the case, why bother with it?

It is cheaper to just give the consumer what he wants than to try to educate him out of it.

I am all for choice, though.  Here's hoping that Gamo decides to import .22 again to this market, and that other companies don't follow their lead in moving toward .177 only.

-JP
http://www.uplandhunter.net

Offline Gene_SC

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RE: I wouldn't be surprised.....
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2006, 02:23:13 PM »
I agree with you about the marketing aspect of the .22 cal rifles. Not just Gamo but you know that other companies will follow suite. Being kinda selfish, own 5 .22 cal air guns and the fact that Gamo will not distribute to the US does not bother me, but allot of new air gun enthusiasts will probably miss out in the future on the new .22 air guns.

The rest of my fleet of air guns are .177 and I have one .25 Co 2. I feel fortunate that I have been able to gather such a selection in such a short time. Learning the pros and cons of each caliber is part of my growing into the air gun sport.

Dr. Beeman had a true vision. The more I read about the .20 caliber air guns the more I am realizing that the .20 caliber air rifles have the best of both worlds in calibers. I do know this that my next purchase will be a .20 caliber air rifle. The R-9 that you speak of is a bit heavy for me. I would like to find a .20 caliber under 8 lbs. or even 7 lbs.

The recent post about changing the Shadow 1000 over to a .20 caliber intrigues me. I really like shooting the Shadow as I understand you and allot of others on our forum. I am giving this some serious consideration. My only problem is that I do not work on the air guns myself and would be afraid to even attempt. Would not want to ruin my Shadow with a blunder..:)

J.P. thanks for another good post my friend.

Gene
THE ONES I SLEEP WITH: BSA Lightning XL, AA TX-200, AA ProSport, BSA Ultra, HW-97K, Crosman NPSS .177, FX Cyclone, HW-30 Nicle Plated, AA-S200, Crosman Marauder, CZ-634, R-9 DG, Webley/Scott UK Tomahawk, Benji Kantana, Benji Marauder, Benji Discovery.....
....

Gene\'s Tunz n Toyz
Springer Tunin

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which of course raises the question
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2006, 03:54:51 PM »
what's the short list of the best .20 cal out there?

There simply aren't many options.

There's the Beemans
R9
R1
R7
RX2
HW97

RWS 48
RWS 34

Eun Jin Sumatra (Carbine too)

Theoben Evolution
Theoben Crusader
Theoben Eliminato
Theoben Crow-Magnum
Theoben Rapid XP
Theoben Rapid MFR
Theoben Rapid MFR XP
Theoben Rapid 12 S-Type

Benjamin Sheridan :
Blue Steak CB9
Silver Streak C9.

Logun MKII Professional Sporter


Maybe some others I am missing.

Other than the Benjamin Sheridans, these all tend to be rather pricey rifles.

The best "bargain" in a .20 springer seem to be the R9 for around $335.

Airgundepot seems to say it very well, so I will quote them:

"There is no doubt that the .20 caliber is a great caliber. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of options out there and price is a factor. You can buy a Benjamin / Sheridan pump style air rifle in a .20 cal for a reasonable price. This rifle is good for close range hunting (25-30 yards) but lacks power for any hunting at longer distances. If you want a pump pellet rifle for target shooting or close range varmint hunting this would be a good choice. If you are in the market for a top of the line air rifle and have the money to spend you might want to seriously consider one of Beeman's .20 cal rifles. They are top notch and backed by a lifetime warranty."

My response? I really want to try a .20 shadow now =D

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RE: I really think the answer is R-9, and here's why
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2006, 01:24:53 PM »
Youkilis:

You ask which of the .20 caliber air rifles is best.  "Best" of course is a highly relative and subjective term.  What is best for me may not be best for you.

Then again, it could be.

First, a little background.  I live in California, where we currently enjoy some of the most progressive regulations pertaining to the use of air guns as serious hunting tools for edible small game.  We can use air rifles to hunt all resident small game species including upland game birds like quail, chukar partridge, and even turkey.

The beauty of this is that as California continues to urbanize, air rifles can still be used in areas where the discharge of, say, a shotgun, might be legal but might not put you in the good graces of your neighbors.  There are also some advantages for upland game bird hunters such as myself who hunt primarily in true wild areas far from the fringe of civilization.  The main one is that game birds shot on the ground with an air rifle are typically killed outright and dropped where they took the hit or missed cleanly.  You don't have the birds that you roll in the air with a shotgun but hit the ground wounded yet very much alive.

If you've got a dog, those rolled cripples aren't such a big deal.  Sure, we'd rather kill clean and not have any animal suffer needlessly, but with with a dog, those that do get crippled are usually found and at least don't become coyote bait.

I'd really like to live in a single family detached house.  The problem is that real estate is so expensive in this state that the only neighborhoods I can afford such a thing in are those no one in their right mind would really want to live in.  So I live in a duplex with zero yard space and I work my butt off to afford it.  So does my wife.  Not only do I not have space to keep a gun dog, I really don't have time to devote to one.

And that is the major reason why I hunt with air rifles.  If you're dogless like me, recovery on shot game birds is as close to 100% as it can get when using air rifles.

Okay, so with that out of the way, I'll add this.........

California is a state with highly varied topography, but most of it that I hunt upon is rugged and steep.  I hunt on the desert slopes of the state's mountain ranges, from the San Bernarinos to the Sierras, to the Warners -from Mexico to the Oregon Border.  Most of this country is very dusty, and dust gets on everything and in everything.  It is, for the most part, high-desert habitat.

But it is typically filled with game birds when you know where to look for them.

The thing is, though, that hunting game birds with an air rifle is best done during very narrow windows of time when they are moving in a covey on the ground from the roosting area to their first water of the morning, or when they are moving from their last water to roost in the evening.

In the middle of the day, they'll disperse in loafing cover after a morning feed.  They'll be spread out in singles and pairs, which is great for shotgunning but not so hot for air rifle shooting.

Early in the morning, right at sunrise or in the grey light just before, temps during the season can drop down well below freezing.  From November through January, I'll be hunting in below freezing temps most of the time.

Okay, so with that background out of the way.................

R-9:  7.3 pounds bare and around 8 scoped.  It isn't too heavy to be a burden on steep country, yet is heavy enough to "hang well" for off-hand shooting.  And in the desert scrub I usually hunt in, there isn't anything to use for a rest, so virtually all of the shooting I do is done standing.  If you don't get silly with muzzle brakes and such, a scoped R-9 will have the kind of between the hands balance that is similar to a shotgun and works to allow you move the rifle so you can "track" a quail or chukar in the scope as it meanders through the scrub.  Yes, you are shooting MOVING game and NO it isn't easy.  It is a lot tougher than it needs be, however, if you use the wrong tool for the job.  An R-9 in .20 typically limits you to exactly ONE pellet.  It will drive Beeman FTS to the 735-750 ft/s range for about 14 ft/lbs of energy and carry about 9 ft/lbs to the target.  That is plenty of thump to cleaninly kill all of the game you'll encounter and the velocity is high enough to allow a reasonably flat trajectory to make kills out to 50 yards. It doesn't have enough power to shoot heavier pellets well, though, so Premiers are out, as are Kodiaks.  The trajectory with these isn't flat enough. It is, of course, a barrel cocker, so it can be quickly reloaded.  This is a good thing for me since upland game birds will travel in groups of 20 to 50 in the case of valley quail, and the shooting can be pretty fast and fruious.  It also uses a convential metallic mainstpring with no seals to fail in cold weather.

R-1:  Great rifle, but the extra weight becomes tiresome and it is not as lively feeling in the hands as the R-9 is.  Those are the two main drawbacks.  Power wise, it doesn't shoot FTS's significantly flatter than the lighter and more compact R-9 does, nor does it offer a huge difference in thump at the 50 yard line.  It just weighs more and is slower to swing.  It does shoot the heavier Premeirs fast enough to give the same trajectory with them that you get by shooting FTS ammo out of an R-9.

R-7:  Sweet little rifles, these are.  But they really don't shoot flat enough in .20 to be useful for potting quail in a windy desert.  Not enough power for the big jacks, and if you decide to shoot a turkey in the spring, you'll need something other than this unit to get the job done.

RX-2:  Do you REALLY want to pack nearly 12 pounds of scoped air rifle around?  You don't if you hunt where I do.  You're going to carry thing across 2000 feet of elevation gain and decline, up steep slopes to rimrock summits, and you might lug it as many as 4 miles or more from where you parked your Jeep.  I've seen the gas struts in these become totally useless in temps below 27 degrees, when the seals of the strut failed to hold the gas that makes the "spring."

HW 97:  Nice rifle, just the thing in .177 for an FT match.  Not the thing for quail hunting.  Too slow to reload.  Oh, and the breeching mechanism doesn't seem to like to get dirty.  It weighs more than an R-9 does.  It puts out roughly the same power.  It feels less dynamic in the hands.

RWS 48:  Slow to reload.  Too heavy.  Yada yada yada.

RWS 34: Old-fashioned ball-detent lock up.  Seperate scope rail.  Drooping barrels requiring special mounts to compensate.  Okay, I reckon, but it ain't an R-9.  I'd rather shoot a GAMO Shadow with a CdT trigger than a 34, personally.

Benjamin-Sheirdan "Streaks":  Even slower to reload than a HW 97 is.  The pumping is noisy and time-consuming.  Getting a 4-12 scope on one is a problem.  I find it hilarious that some of the same people who rip on Gamo for their bad trigger rave about the delightful shooting qualities of these things because as bad as an out-of-the box Gamo trigger is, the trigger on a Streak is far worse.  Accuracy with these things can be actually quite good, but repeatable accuracy still depends on a consistant pumping technique, to a certain degree.

Theoben Evolution / Crusader / Eliminator/ Crow Magnum:  Gas struts are cool.  The problem is that even the lastest HE version of this technology isn't very cold-weather friendly.  Maybe I shouldn't let a brief but bad experience with a Crusader discourage me, but the one that I had briefly really didn't like temps below 20 degrees F.  You simply aren't going to kill many small game animals in this state if you can't be out doing your thing on "brisk" fall mornings.

ALL PCP:  This technology might be the way forward in the U.K.  The problem is that I don't do much hunting in the U.K.  I do most of it in the High Desert of California.  And the terrain I hunt on, the regulations that I hunt under, and even the game that I hunt doesn't really have all that much in common with what goes on in the U.K.

How do I know?  Because I've been there and done that.  My brother in law's parents live on a farm in the U.K.  It is about 300 acres or so.  Their rabbits are communal creatures.  Ours aren't.  Ours are very territorial.  Theirs can be shot at night.  Ours can't.  There is nowhere near the amount of dust to deal with in the U.K. as there is in the California desert.  Yes, it gets cold there, but  they don't need to hunt in the coldest weather.  There rabbits are plenty active during warm summer nights and during cool (but not freezing) fall days.  They aren't all that active in the coldest weather.  Ours are.  They generally seem to be more "domesticated" and less wild.  They don't have the threat of predation from coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, and so on.  And the population density exceeds 1 in every 10 acres, which is what it averages on raw wild land here in California.  It exceeds it by a healthy margin, too, which is why they are pests in the U.K. and are considered game animals here.

I personally don't believe that PCP is really all that reliable.  You can find plenty of problems and tales of woe with PCP if you look for them on the 'Net.

Some of these PCP's are heavy, too.  The Weirauch HW-100 weighs in at nearly 10 pounds.

If you only get 40 shots on a fill, you are going to be re-filling a PCP druing a weekend of quail hunting.  The limit is 10 per day, 20 in possession.  And you aren't going to hit every single one of the birds that you shoot at.  Well, perhaps others would.  I don't.  I normally go 1 for 3.  For every three birds I take a poke at, I miss 2.  They aren't that easy to hit.

I am hardly going to be in the mood to pump the thing manually after a day spent trapsing across the desert slopes at an altitude of 4,200 to 6,500 feet.  The rifle isn't going to like the dust and I doubt if I can really prevent dust from entering into the rifle's reservoir.  I don't really want to lug a scuba tank around in the back of my Jeep on the 4 wheel-drive roads I use to access my hunting areas, either.

I need a self-contained powerplant that is reliable in the harsh environment that I hunt in.  I need a certain level of power -at least 8 ft/lb at 50 yards.  I need reasonably rapid reloading. I need dynamic handling, yet I also need a rifle that hangs well for longer shots.  I need relatively light weight for portability.  I need ease of service and maintenance.

That kind of narrows the field down a bit, for me.  If I hunted in nicer weather, or on flatter ground, or hunted mostly squirrels, or mostly rabbits, or hunted in a less dusty environment, or hunted in a less remote one, then perhaps things would be different.

And believe me, I really wish there was more of a choice, because there are some things about the R-Series guns that are a big turn off to me, with the main one being the safety arrangement.

For me, there really isn't one, and for most of the hunting situations that I encounter, the .20 R-9 is as good as it currently gets.

As good as it is, I think a .20 caliber Shadow with one of Bob Werner's triggers in it and a little attention paid to de-twanging might be an even better deal.

-JP
http://www.uplandhunter.net

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Re: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2006, 02:04:29 PM »
I like your line of reasoning, but I have to wonder about loading and shots.

In my limited hunting experience on my property, I feel that not being ready to shoot the instant I leave the house is holding me back.

and there have been a few cases where there was simply no way I could reload fast enough to get 2 shots off.

(Now I go slightly off topic...but it's related to what I need in a gun.)

But with something PCP with a magazine -- maybe I could be more successful because a) I was already loaded and b) made no sound fumbling with pellets or cocking and c) could rip off more than one shot

Something like an FX Cyclone in .177  weighs 5.5 lbs, it is PCP but it has a removeable 8 shot magazine and it's adjustable down to 12 ft/lbs or or up 27 ft/lbs.

Now granted this is significantly more than a .20 cal R9, but I can't help but thinking having the ability fire multiple shots in succession without having to manually reload would be extremely important in the type of hunting you do.

But you do  have the nuisance of filling it and possibly running out at a bad time.

Being a Jeep Wrangler driver, I can certainly think of some cool places to mount a CF tank, but probably not so many if you have a wife and kids and gear along with it.

I can understand your choice and it makes very good sense.

The more I research the higher end guns and the more experience I get, I see myself forgetting about a .20 and migrating to a high powered adjustable .177 with a magazine like the FXs.

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Re: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2006, 08:17:59 PM »
Youkilis:

The only thing I don't like about my little TJ is that it is, uh, little.  With the wife and kids along for the ride, as they usually are, every iota of space is consumed in the Jeep sometimes.  I do have a USMC M-416 trailer for it, though, so I really could carry a tank if I wanted to.

The main things that I am concerned with regarding PCP are: cost and reliability in subfreezing and dusty conditions.

That said, I have (or am developing) more faith in the reliability of PCP for the conditions that I hunt under than I do for gas strut / piston rifles.  I'd like to see a few more folks be the guinea pig before I jump on board.

For just plain shooting fun, I still like a good spring-piston gun and I don't think that would change.  I like the fact that there is a certain amount of technique involved to shooting one well.  I like the lively feel and the recoil.

If I ever do go PCP, I'm sure I'd still want it in .20.  However, since the .20 R-9 is really all the gun I normally need for most of the hunting that I do, I don't see going PCP happening for me, anytime soon.

You're right about the true repeating capability of magazine PCP's being an asset for the hunting that I do.  I really could have used that feature this past Saturday on my rabbit hunt.  No doubt about that. I could definitely put it to use in quail hunting, too.

Todd Ridenaour, one of the freelancers that is working with me on Uplandhunter.net, seems to think that I'll eventually see the light and move toward PCP.  He seems to have the answer for most of my objections regarding keeping the rifle running in the backcountry.  He tends to hunt in milder climatic conditions of the coastal moutains, though.  If I did as much of that as he does, I suppose I would be into it, because the temperature extremes aren't as vast and it isn't the same sort of dusty environment.

I do think about it, though.  Particularly the true multi-shot capability.  That is VERY appealing.  So it is with the idea that PCP's are capable of handling much heavier pellets than piston rifles can, too.  And it is really tough to argue against the idea that PCP is easier to shoot accurately than a piston rifle is.

I did actually try an Air Arms S200 in .22.  I'm a big fan of CZ firearms, having a CZ 452-2E rimfire, and two CZ 550's with one in .30-'06 and the other in .375 H&H, so I was predisposed to will the thing to work, as it is made by CZ.  I'm sure it would have worked, too, for most people.  It really didn't like the cold temperatures that it got exposed to in my hunting.

I know a fellow who uses a TDR and he hunts in many of the same areas that I do.  He's had a few issues but nothing I could say is directly related to the enviornment he hunts in.  It was more like stuff that wasn't done right at the factory.

I may have to look into this FX Cyclone you mentioned.  If it could survive in the cold and shrug off the dust, it no doubt would work very well for me.

-JP
http://www.uplandhunter.net

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Sounds like it's time...
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2006, 04:09:42 AM »
to trade in the porsche for a a Wrangler Unlimited =D

blasphemy I know

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RE: Sounds like it's time...
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2006, 08:32:11 AM »
Quote
Youkilis - 8/22/2006  9:09 AM

to trade in the porsche for a a Wrangler Unlimited =D

blasphemy I know


Youkilis:

C'mon, man!  As a fellow Wrangler Pilot, you KNOW that true blasphemy would be trading off one's YJ or TJ for ANYTHING!

My Jeep is like a member of the family.  It might get it's feelings hurt if it had to share space in the garage with another one.  The Teutonic Hotrod, on the other hand, is a toy.  It is one I could live without.  I'd have a real tough time living without my TJ.

Back to airguns.......

Your comment in your previous post about repeating-fire capability really hit home with me.  I've been replaying the week-end's rabbit episode over and over again, and I think that with a multi-shot PCP, the bunny I shot on Saturday that I wounded after the pellet was deflected by brush wouldn't have required the extensive following up if I could have got another pellet into him a little more instantly.

-JP
http://www.uplandhunter.net

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Re: .22 Cal Gamo's?
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2006, 08:47:53 AM »
yeah I was just thinking with your shooting experience, the ability to fire a succession of shots with little or no reload time would be truly deadly on the small game you hunt.

Like you said previously though, the real issue is can a given PCP stand up to the environment you'd be shooting it in. That I just don't know. But it sure sounds like a fun experiment to run, doesn't it? =D

As far as the Jeeps go, I know I know.

My YJ is a '93, about 80k on it. I say "about" because at around 17k the speedometer/odometer gauge fried on a skiing trip and I didn't bother to get it fixed for a while. I never planned on reselling it so what do I care?

It has taken me from NY to Boston to Chicago to the Outer Banks of NC to Los Angeles. If I have to replace every hex on it to keep it running then I will.

I recall a trip riding the beach near Hatteras, when I took a dune a little too fast, front end went down, rear end obviously went up. And then of coure it had to come back down.

When it eventually did, I shattered a big (maybe 20 gallon?) plastic water bladder I had in the back.

Holy mother...why is there 3 inches of water in the jeep? It's cool, just pull the drain plugs and keep on rolling =D

Bet your porsche can't do that =D

Of course jeeps have the aerodynamics of a tent covered barn door, and corner about as well as a garden tractor  so maybe I shouldn't be picking on the hotrod =D I'm sure it is a joy to drive on those canyon roads in socal.

It is a part of my family, I completely understand what you mean.