Author Topic: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...  (Read 2857 times)

Offline NMCA_Ron

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Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« on: June 26, 2008, 02:06:26 AM »
Ok, I realize this is not an airgun related topic, but I do know the quality of fabricators and engineering genius on this forum so I figured I would ask...

Does anyone here have experience in building intercoolers for supercharged applications in racing vehicles? Specifically, what I am looking for is information on building an intercooler that would utilize a water-to-air cooling process where the water is chilled with salt/ice mixture to achieve sub-freezing temperatures for the air inlet to the intake manifold. The current configuration being utilized is manufactured from aluminum and the salt is highly corrosive in this environment. Has anyone ever worked with stainless steel in a saltwater environment? I am wondering if it is possible to build an intercooler out of stainless and whether or not the heat transfer properties of stainless steel are similar to that of aluminum.

I know some of you are probably scratching your heads thinking, "WTF?", but I also know there are some guys (and gals!) who like a challenge so I figured I would present one.


Thanks!


Ron
\"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible.\" - Theodore Roethke

Offline Splash

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RE: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2008, 02:28:56 AM »
Ron, stainless steel would last longer than aluminum, but will rust, not sure about heat transfer properties. How about using dry ice instead, of salt/ice?
Mike
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Offline NMCA_Ron

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RE: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2008, 03:02:38 AM »
The problem with dry ice is venting the CO2 as it melts. A pressurized vessel could become a potential explosion hazard as the dry ice evaporates when exposed to the water. We have passed the dry ice idea around for a while, and it just hasn't proved itself, yet.


Ron
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Offline yel01z06

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2008, 03:02:40 AM »
Ron they also make a co2 kit that sprays across the intercooler to chill it you may want to look at that here is a link

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=NEX%2D20000%2D10&N=700+4294821582+115&autoview=sku

Offline howie1a

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2008, 03:05:51 AM »
How about marine grade aluminum alloys  they used to use old ww2 wing tanks for boats years ago but they didn't last and now with the marine grade alloys a aluminum boat is good for years . One other thing is what you are building somthing like a heat exchanger that boats use for a fresh water cooling system you might find one either used or already made for you they are brass and look something like a gattling gun when you take the end plates off to clean the marine build up off them we used to use muriac acid to clean them howie
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Offline NMCA_Ron

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 03:27:26 AM »
Yeah, I have seen that kit. It works great if you can refill the CO2 bottle between runs. This is in a True Street car where you cannot touch the car between passes and there is no cool down period between rounds.

I kind of like the idea of the marine heat exchanger. I will look into that a bit more, thanks!


Ron
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Offline riarcher

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RE: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2008, 04:51:35 AM »
Been awhile,, but if I remember correctly, 300 series stainless  will oxidize very little as in loosing it's shine. 400 series is somewhat magnetic and will rust some on the surface. 300 will polish up nicely, hold a shine better, but is easily scratched (in comparison).
The 300 series is what we used for cold forming / drawing when a lot of stress wouldbe placed on the material (softer and more fluid like). The 400 series would "work harden quickly and crack and tear if stressed overly much. Of course that's all relative. They all have limits to some degree. The 440 stuff is used for knife blades because it can be hardened and hold an edge longer than 300. Over time it will take on a rust patina, but not as bad as some of the other 400's. 416 I believe was bad at rusting in comparison.
300 has more copper/nichol, more pliable, and usually used for better quality pots and pans, etc. for the drawing qualities needed to get the depth.

From my experiences in the comercial fishing industry, generally speaking, above the water line, tanks, etc. that didn't mind minor rusting was 400 series. Below, valves, lines, etc. 300 was preferable.
300 is considerably more expensive than the 400 too.

Hope that helps a little.
Gary

PS; Stainless should transfer the heat / cold better than aluminum because of being more dense. S.S. coolers vs. aluminum & Plastic.


Offline Splash

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RE: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2008, 09:26:07 AM »
Yeah, that would be a problem, but what about a one way pressure valve dumping excess pressure into a scuba tank, or something similar. Should be able to make several runs, before the tank would need to be bled off.
Mike
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Offline SDale

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2008, 12:07:15 PM »
I've been kicking this idea around as wel and I think I finally solved my probleml. I've got a Turbo Hayabusa that I was looking to run higher boost on and without proper charge cooling I've gotten a bit of detonation on warmer days.

. I run an air/water intercooler and added a water reserve tank to the system. I built a hollow probe into the tank that I can put dry ice into. The probe is vented to atmosphere so there's no dangerous pressure build-up. The reserve tank fits inside the rear cowl, but it takes a bit more tubing to pull off!

The water flow was originally from the scavenging pump, through the small radiator out the radiator into the intercooler and looped back from there.

My revised flow pattern is almost the same with the addition of the reserve being fed down stream of the radiator and the scavenging pump on the opposite side of the system to draw chilled water from the reserve tank pushing it into the intercooler, then out to the radiator and back around.

With this set-up I was able to add a few more pounds of boost with no detonation yet (verified with a knock count sensor). Air charge temps were also dropped by 3 degrees and more if I iced the radiator.  


584 WHP on a 2 wheeled vehicle is FUN! teehee

Offline Splash

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2008, 12:36:59 PM »
Sam, I wish my back could handle sitting on a bike, 584 sounds like fun to me. The last time I was on a bike was about 20yrs ago, didn't go to well, the front tire went flat, in the middle of a turn, about 95mph. No shirt, shoes, or helmet it was still fun, since I only got a few scratches, during the 4 flips, before I could kick the bike away. Ahh the good old days, of being young and being able to bounce back,hehe.
Mike
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Offline Machinist

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2008, 06:04:09 PM »
Ron:
The heat transfer properties of aluminum are far superior to stainless steel regardless of series(300, 400). If you are married, ask your wife, if not, ask your mother.
99% of all heat sinks are aluminum.
The turbo Buick GN guys I do work for use BIG intercoolers out of over-the-road diesel trucks. If you go to the turbo Buick/Buick Grand National forums you will find a wealth of intercooler info.
A word of caution - the turbo or superchargers already "pack" in the air and just a hint of a too lean fuel mixture can cause detonation that will blow your mill. Super chilled more dense air may push your injectors beyond their fuel delivery capability...mixture goes lean - burn thru a piston(s) and blow the mill.
Mike
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Offline NMCA_Ron

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 01:24:17 AM »
Mike,

Thanks for the good info. As far as fuel delivery, that has not been much of an issue except on those doggone nitrous setups. When those solenoids kick open, you BETTER have a buttload of fuel available with zero pressure drop or you will go lean instantaneously, resulting in nastiness of all sorts.

Just an FYI, we will be at the Super Bowl of Street Legal Drag Racing at RT 66 Raceway Park in Joliet, Illinois, July 17-20 if anyone wants to come out and play or just watch. I work for the NMCA/NMRA and have been with them since 2001. That is a great bunch of folks to hang out with.

Thanks for all the ideas, guys. The intercooler questions were actually posed to me by one of my racing buddies from Canada who will be in Chicago (God willing and the creek don't rise) with his Mustang. I hope to see you all there!

Ron
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Offline riarcher

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Re: Way off topic for an airgunf forum, but here goes...
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 01:44:19 AM »
Ooops1 you're right. My bad on the heat transfer.
I was thinking eveness of distribution. avoiding hot / cold spots.
Sorry. (Good catch)
Gary