RE: Canada's Health Care system

[whipperwilly]

First, Don't believe every nasty coment you hear about the Canadian health care system being in ruins.....there are ALWAYS those in favor and those against things.....its no different here in Canada.

Second:   EVERY SINGLE CANADIAN.....can go see a doctor, or get medical attention....AT ANY TIME that they deem necessary....WITHOUT worry about the cost of doing so !!!  This is a "RIGHT" of every canadian.....NEVER worry about it !!!

NO Matter what anyone else says about our system......EVERY CANADIAN can get medical attention when needed.

The arguments you may hear have to do with GOVERNMENTS and overall COST of health care in Canada.
Most governments, most politicians have their own agendas.....so they want to do those things instead of coff up the dollars for what the people want in health care.

The problems are with the availability of beds, numbers of doctors -> time it takes to be seen by a doctor, whether NEW Expensive drugs should be covered or not....these are the kinds of arguments going on, and we are SHORT of doctors and nurses and facilities, causing long wait times at some hospitals.....BUT... the bottom line STILL IS: "EVERY SINGLE Canadian gets taken care of "!!!

OUR BIGGEST FAILURE:  When our system was first created.....we did NOT include dental care or eye care as part of the system.....today we WISH WE HAD !!!  These cost us DEARLY out of our own pockets today.....!!!

Canadian Health Care.....YEAH...its DAMN nice to know you can get that care when you are sick, have just broken a leg, arm or been involved in an accident......that you don't have to worry at all....its AUTOMATIC...its THERE FOR US !!  Sure we may have to fork out the cash for a prescription or two....but thats small poatatoes compared to the consequences otherwise.  Yeah..it WORKS JUST FINE !!!!

[TCups]

"Free" health care is not a fundamental human right.

"Free" health care is never free.  Canadians have neither free health care nor the guarantee of a right to medical care.  They have ceded the right to determine what health care they will have and when they will have it to the government.  And in that sense, their "rights" are determined by their government.

Americans have  (or have had) a fundamentally different viewpoint.  Our "Rights" are God-given, not provided by a statist government.  Our constitution limits the power of government.  The fundamental belief in self reliance, responsibility, and a free market have always separated the USA from Canada, US, France, Germany, or any other fundamentally socialist government system.  And there are still, for now, a majority of Americans who feel this way.  So I am happy you like the system you choose to live under -- God save our Queen and all that.  Hope you get your free dental care.  We prefer God bless America and hope to preserve our Republic, if we can.  A government large enough and powerful enough to provide for all your needs is large enough and powerful enough to control the people by doing so.  There is another name for the kind of national socialistic government that leads to: Totalitarian.  The 2010 USA elections will be very revealing.

I am reminded of H. G. Wells' "Time Machine".  In the distant future, Earth's people have degenerated into two societies -- the Eloi and the Morlocks.  The Eloi have it made.  Everything is provided for them.  There is no work.  They are a seemingly happy, carefree, well fed.  But they have no personal responsibility -- not even to save one another from drowning.  And one day, a siren sounds.  They all dutifully march off to the "shelter" until the "all clear" is sounded, as it turns out, to be eaten by the Morlocks.  The Morlocks are, of course the degenerate underworld characters who run the vast machines and infrastructure and those who provide for the Eloi.  The only rub is that the Eloi are, in effect, cattle.  They just don't know it.

If you think a massive, powerful government that takes control of the needs of the people and provides the necessities of life, including medical care, for free is good and desirable, then I fear you will surely soon be devoured by your own ever-hungry government.  Totalitarian governments, you see, need only for the people to be nothing more than the cattle that feeds their great machines.

Interestingly, I read that H. G. Wells was a socialist.  Delicious irony, if you ask me.

[North Pack]

That free stuff also includes something like a freakin' 17% VAT (Value added tax), not to mention more taxes in general to keep it free.

[whipperwilly]

I DID NOT SAY IT WAS FREE !!

Every Canadian that works for a living PAYS TAXES !  Part of those TAXES we pay is for our HEALTHCARE !  It is deducted from your paycheck everytime you get a paycheck, the same as for our pensions, income tax, etc.

This is one case where the taxes you pay DO GO WHERE WE WANT THEM TO GO. We pay taxes JUST AS YOU FOLKS DO TOO, make no mistake about it, we all pay....its just how and when....thats different bewteen Canada and the USA.

Further, here in Canada....we the people are in CONTROL of our politicians. We CAN BOOT THEM OUT at any time...not just every 4 years as you can (elections).....we do have the ability to sign a petition to demand the resignation of any politician in Canada at ANY time, and HAVE done so !

Also, we can sign such petitions to get certain health care thats NOT COVERED at present....COVERED !  This has happened many times recently as NEW drugs or treatments have come up, some too new and too expensive for any individual to pay for. The MORE people that pay...the CHEAPER such drugs/equipment cost.....(manufacturer sells one its costly, sells a dozen the costs come down).

Further, you complain that you are afraid of government telling you what will be......BUT instead you have opted for BIG INSURANCE COMPANIES to do JUST THAT......at least you can replace your government politicians come election time.....can you replace your insurance company CEO's ???? or their RULES ???? I would have thought you folks would have opted for Government control instead of Big Corporations telling you what to do......

As for cost;  Insurance companies will cover you for some drug....the COST of that drug "PLUS A BIT MORE...for their PROFIT" ! With our government its JUST THE COST....NO PROFIT ADDED ! Also, those insurance companies CAN REFUSE YOU coverage.....if you cost TOO MUCH, or TOO OFTEN, or INCREASE your rates to that you can't afford it......then you will have NO COVERAGE.

Sounds to me that the PROBLEM you have is that you DON'T TRUST your GOVERNMENT !
Putting your trust into CORPORATIONS instead.....is NOT a step up....its a step DOWNWARD. (Check out the recent economic BUST)

HAVE YOU REALLY THOUGHT THINGS OUT.....or are you just firing from the hip blindly in response ??

[TCups]

Sorry, I confused "not worrying about paying" for the service with the notion of "free".  My bad.  

Most hard working Americans who want health insurance have it, by the way, and cheaper than the government can provide it.  The problem comes from the growing numbers of people, not necessarily citizens, who don't work for their living and who either pay nothing or much less than the market value for their health care -- the welfare roles, retired senior citizens on Medicare and Medicaid, and a huge population of illegal immigrants who will apparently receive government healthcare benefits.  Hard working Americans not only pay for their own health care, they pay for those "entitled" to but not paying for health care as well.  If only all those who were hard working tax payers, were eligible for health care insurance, then there would hardly be any "crisis", I suspect

Corporate profits and the jobs big, profitable corporations create are good things.  People can choose not to buy insurance or to shop for the most reasonable coverage from a private corporation. We will loose that choice if government takes over the health care system.

Expensive drugs?  Built into the cost of those expensive medicines is the R&D costs and the cost of lost revenues in exporting to countries who don't honor the US patent system.  The large drug companies can either supply those countries at cost, or have their medicines counterfeited and distributed by some third party.  BTW, in that sense, the US subsidizes a substantial part of the drug costs of Canadians.   We could demand to pay the same low price as Canadians do, but the ultimate consequence would be that the profit margin for the R&D of bringing a new drug to market would be too low to continue to discover, develop and distribute new "wonder drugs".  BTW, are there any large drug companies based in Canada (other than the Canadian whisky distillers)?

You are correct that I don't trust the US Government.  Do some research.  It was US government policy that dictated the situation that led to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and the mortgage industry's collapse and all that followed, and government tax and monetary policy that drive the current recession -- not private industry.

You desperately need to read "The Road to Serfdom", "The Constitution of Libetry" and "The Fatal Conceit - Socialism", all  written by Friedrich von Hayek (recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences in 1974).  Or you could just not worry about it and let the government take care of it for you.

Scarce commodities and services will always be "rationed".  The fairest, most efficient way is economic rationing in a free market with the least government controls.  The "Road to Serfdom" is to allow political allocation, central planning, and rationing by a government.  The fundamental arguments will always come down to free market capitalism vs statist socialism, no matter how one dresses up the argument.  Me?  I am an American free market Capitalist and no amount of argument will ever persuade me that the alternative is better.  Socialsts?  Mooooo.

PS:  PERHAPS you should spend a bit more time THINKING, READING, and CONSIDERING some of the actual FACTS of the current situation and the LESSONS OF HISTORY instead of shooting from your CAPS LOCK.  GLAD you are IN CONTROL up there in CANADA, eh?

"(Canadians) have to understand that the system that we have right now - if it keeps on going without change - is not sustainable," said Doig (incoming President of the Canadian Medical Association).  But don't believe everything you read.

[whipperwilly]

Whoa there now.....this notion that only those who work for a living should get to enjoy lifes amenities, I have a bit of a problem with this train of thought......in so much as you could be the NEXT individual who isn't working and can't pay.....very quickly. I'm 60 yrs old, and I have been on both sides at one time or another, life can throw you a curve ball any second.....its kind of nice knowing that even if it does you can go get that medical problem looked after even if your BROKE for the moment !

Also...as for those old seniors that are on medicare/medicaid.......I got news for you....ONE DAY you will be in that group TOO. Oh it sounds too good to be true....that if you work hard all your life you can retire RICH and not need such help when you get old.....well I have news for you....IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE....IT ISN'T TRUE....and this is something that most seniors up here in Canada are learning the HARD WAY !

For one, the costs in this world NEVER STOP GOING UP.....but when you retire, your income DOES ! Thats why they are called FIXED INCOMES.
And YES...it will happen to you TOO. Someday you will retire on what you think is enough income only to find that its FIXED and the costs in the world are NOT, as they go up your level of life goes DOWN.

Also, did you know that the MAJORITY of healthcare costs that you will chalk up.....come about as you get OLD. You are healthy now....but when you get old thats when your body starts needing this, then that, more of this, etc.etc. This is the period of your life that you REALLY start costing the healthcare system BIG BUCKS !! Paying for these yourself will without a doubt degrade your lifestyle a notch or two...like you may just have to live in that little house in back.....you know that one room.... OUTHOUSE !

AND ITS NO DIFFERENT HERE.....I just received a bill for $2600 in the mail today for the healthcare costs for my mom that OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM DOES NOT PAY FOR !  She had a STROKE a few months ago, her BASIC healthcare costs are covered, and have been. BUT now she needs 24 hour care.....LONG TERM CARE until she dies (tomorrow or 20 years ?), but this is NOT COVERED under our healthcare. SO I either get her a NANNY to look after her at her home or put her into a long-term-care facility. PROBLEM is BOTH are in SHORT SUPPLY here. In long-term-care....we DON'T have enough facilities to meet the GROWING need (as baby-boomers get old) and NANNIES are in VERY short supply, AND BOTH would still cost me $1500 per month or more. SO....for now she stays in a hospital bed at $47 per day cost to me. This takes up another of the SHORT SUPPLY of beds.....a growing Problem->the kind that prompted that story you are quoting->something has to be done or our system is doomed to colapse. I didn't say that our system was perfect.....I only said that the basic healthcare system does work, and it does. BUT I also said that we made the mistake of NOT including some costs like Dental or eyecare, ETC. when our system was set up.

AND..this is why I can't understand your arguments. Instead of fighting the idea of your government setting up a similar healthcare system,
you INSTEAD SHOULD BE FIGHTING LIKE MAD.....to Include Every DAMN THING POSSIBLE !!  Include your Dental care, your eyecare, and ESPECIALLY your Seniors LONG-TERM-CARE costs->whether this be the drugs or actual facilities needed, or BOTH ! Don't make our mistake of NOT doing ENOUGH (true 60 years ago they probably didn't realise the forth-coming need for seniors long-term-care). I can tell you now for a FACT that it is hard as nails to get our government to "NOW" include these costs into our system. AND that is the basis of that story you read, we the people WANT these costs outside the system DEALT WITH......our governments don't want to talk about it. In the end, we the people will get something done.....but the waiting is killing us !

Our Healthcare system does work......but it does have a few rough edges that need more polishing. You in the USA do appear to be heading for a NEW system.....fighting it is a waste of your efforts......fighting to get a GOOD SYSTEM is what you should be up too.

Also, I do know of your system there....I have relatives in the USA. Also just for the record, I'm doing without eyecare right now, and I haven't seen a dentist for several years......can't afford more costs out of my pocket right now.

[TCups]

Thank you for your views on socialized medicine.

My opinions have been formed during my 57 years of age from a substantial base of experience and study.  I have and undergraduate BS degree in Chemistry and Mathematics and an additional 8 years of post-graduate training, 5 of them after receiving my Medical Doctorate. I am and have been a Board Certified physician since age 25 and a Board Certified Radiologist since age 29.  I have 27 years of experience as a practicing physician.  During that time, I have practiced with, among others, at least 3 expatriated Canadian physicians.  I have practiced in public, private, and teaching university hospital settings. I now own my own private office and employ a full time nurse, 4 technologists, 2 receptionists, and one full time clerical.  I understand that this hardly gives me the depth of understanding and insight you must have, living in Canada, and perhaps living your entire life knowing no alternative to socialized medicine, which certainly would qualify you to judge American health care and our government.  

I do know that the opinion of the incoming President of the Canadian Medical Association opined that Canada's current health care system is un-sustainable and "imploding.", but she is probably just being reactionary and doesn't have any real idea of the ground truth there, eh?  I also know that Canada's population and GDP represent only a small fraction of the USAs'.  The population of the USA in 2008 was over 300 million versus Canada's 32 million.  And if America has, as is oft quoted, some 40 million uninsured, then we must also have insured and provided for around 260 million souls -- more than 8 times Canada's entire population.  So it isn't like the medical care system here is foundering, no matter what the liberal news media and socialist propagandists say.  I won't bother to contrast or defend our separate systems of elected governments, but I will say that I am dismayed to have lived long enough to see the likes of Barak Obama become America's President.  God help us.

But, I hold to the opinion, and I shall repeatedly, emphatically and as often as necessary respond to any and every damned socialist as long as I live and breath: no government instituted by man, no system of centralized government planning, no system of taxation with redistribution of wealth according to government mandate for the expressed purpose of medical care, or any other service has ever proven more beneficial or sustainable than free market capitalism.  The "Rights" you speak of (including the right to healthcare) are folly and are the means by which you will be controlled by your government, not vice versa, sir.  Human rights are those of life, and liberty, and personal property.  Those rights are inherent to all mankind and come from God, not from governments.

The net effect of socialized medicine (or socialized anything) irrespective of how many people are served, will be a decrease quality of medical care for all.  It can only be sustained by a government with totalitarian powers.  Religion may be the opium of the masses, but socialism is the opium of power hungry, elitist politicians and ivory tower left wing liberals.

As for my old age, I have done the mathematics.  Medicare and Medicaid are already bankrupt Ponzi schemes and can never be sustained to take care of me for the next 20 years.  I have planned from an early age to take care of myself, my family, and our own needs from the day I first started working, and none of my plans included the belief that Medicare and Social Security would be anything other than a stone around my neck for my entire working life.   And as for my children and their children, I fear much worse may come.

God, please spare me and the country I love from Socialism and the pervasive, pernicious socialist mentality that threatens personal freedom everywhere.

BTW, I really like Rita Chianelli and Canadian whisky.  Have a great day.

[North Pack]

Now this may be bs, - but somehow I tend to doubt that. For quite a number of years I've read of Canadians coming to this country for medical procedures, but not very many Americans heading to Canada for better or more prompt treatment.
.
.
Thousands of surgeries may be cut in Metro Vancouver due to government underfunding, leaked paper
.
By Darah Hansen, Vancouver SunAugust 18, 2009
.
St. Paul's Hospital cardiologists peform a heart procedure.
.
VANCOUVER — Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures can expect to wait longer for care, NDP health critic Adrian Dix said Monday.

Dix said a Vancouver Coastal Health Authority document shows it is considering chopping more than 6,000 surgeries in an effort to make up for a dramatic budgetary shortfall that could reach $200 million.

“This hasn’t been announced by the health authority … but these cuts are coming,” Dix said, citing figures gleaned from a leaked executive summary of “proposed VCH surgical reductions.”

The health authority confirmed the document is genuine, but said it represents ideas only.

“It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented,” said spokeswoman Anna Marie D’Angelo.

Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts “a nightmare.”

“Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery? I just can’t think of a worse place,” Brodie said.

According to the leaked document, Vancouver Coastal — which oversees the budget for Vancouver General and St. Paul’s hospitals, among other health-care facilities — is looking to close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms starting in September and to cut 6,250 surgeries, including 24 per cent of cases scheduled from September to March and 10 per cent of all medically necessary elective procedures this fiscal year.

The plan proposes cutbacks to neurosurgery, ophthalmology, vascular surgery, and 11 other specialized areas.

As many of 112 full-time jobs — including 13 anesthesiologist positions — would be affected by the reductions, the document says.

“Clearly this will impact the capacity of the health-care system to provide care, not just now but in the future,” Dix said.

Further reductions in surgeries are scheduled during the Olympics, when the health authority plans to close approximately a third of its operating rooms.

Two weeks ago, Dix released a Fraser Health Authority draft communications plan listing proposed clinical care cuts, including a 10-per-cent cut in elective surgeries and longer waits for MRI scans.

The move comes after the province acknowledged all health authorities together will be forced to cut staff, limit some services and increase fees to find $360 million in savings during the current fiscal year.

In all, Fraser Health is looking at a $160-million funding shortfall.

D’Angelo said Vancouver Coastal’s deficit is closer to $90 million — almost a third of which ($23 million) has already been absorbed through reductions in non-clinical administration efficiencies.

Vancouver Coastal performed 67,000 surgeries last year, an increase of 6,500 surgeries over 2007.

“What has now happened is that now our wait times are about 25 per cent lower than the provincial average,” D’Angelo said. “We have put a dent in that wait list.”

Brodie acknowledged surgical waiting times have dropped significantly in recent years, particularly for patients needing hip and joint replacements.

He said the proposed cuts threaten those advancements.

“It sounds like we are going backwards here,” he said.

Total health spending in British Columbia was $15.7 billion this year, up about four per cent over last year’s total of 15.1 billion, according to figures provided by the ministry of health.

Health Minister Kevin Falcon was unavailable for comment Monday on the proposed health-care cuts. A ministry spokesman said Falcon is away on his honeymoon until the end of August.

Elsewhere in British Columbia, the province will look to replace the head of the Interior Health Authority, Murray Ramsden, after he announced he will step down at the end of the year.

Ramsden has said his decision to retire is not related to financial problems faced by the authority.

[whipperwilly]

Hi North Pack:
                        You are right, cutbacks have occured in the name of saving money by governments. I do admit that some of this is due to politicians wanting to spend money elsewhere, and some is due the the fact that more money thrown at that aspect won't change anything either. Also some truth to the fact that government revenues have not kept up to the costs ever increasing.

But lets face facts too.....a mere 200 million is pocket change to a government whose overall budget is in the TRILLIONS. So what is the REAL reason they made those cut-backs ??? I also have noticed that when it comes election time there many promises to SPEND a 100 million here, a 100 million there...ad infinitum ! AND when it comes to other projects the government FAVORS.....they can come up the the cash...NO PROBLEM. Its no different here in Alberta either. Here in ALBERTA our government just started another TRUST FUND worth some 35 BILLION, on top of the HERITAGE TRUST FUND last valued at some 40-50 BILLION. This summer you couldn't go 20 miles in any direction without running into some road construction of some sort.......they DO have the money, they just don't want to spend in on healthcare !

I started this discussion....NOT to put down the USA and its healthcare system, nor to badger anyone in the USA over their choices. I did however want to suggest to you folks to make the MOST of your new found opportunity - the making of a NEW healthcare system, you don't get that kind of chance very often.....I wish we COULD.

The fact is our healthcare system....what there is of it does WORK, and it is NICE to have. But when it was created, those times were hard, most folks were dying of diseases such a polio, diptheria, etc., and no system existed to ensure anything could be done. So a system had to be invented and put in place in a hurry, to ensure that every person was covered, and that everything that could be done ...was done. In that haste however, we neglected to include eye care and Dental care....whose costs today are the BANE of every canadian. At the time no one thought about long-term-care of seniors...it just wasn't on the radar screen in those times.

The second fact is that since then the world has changed A LOT.  Our problems today centre around 3 things, shortage of doctors/nurses and shortage of facilities to meet the demands today of an aging population, and because of those shortages the third problem is that beds are being used by that aging popluation in increasing numbers.....hence LESS beds are available for other surgeries etc......hence the cut-backs in these areas and the wait times to get such surgery. Governments are banking on the baby-boomers coming and going.....then we will have SURPLUS of healthcare services.

Now having said all this...ask any canadian that does get the healthcare service.....none have fault with it...we DO get GOOD Healthcare. The system DOES work nicely...but services are being presured from outside our healthcare system...IE Not enough long-term-care facilities to meet the growing demand by our aging polulation.  One note here.....our governments are without fanfare....quietly building MORE such facilities, question is...will they ever catch up to the increasing need for them.

My purpose in this discussion with you USA folks was to let you know of the problems here.....that you have the OPPORTUNITY to avoid in your new system......My suggestion is to get the system complete with ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES to meet all your healthcare needs today and into the FAR FUTURE (where we failed). Get your dental and eye care as part of the system and add long-term-care and any other need that may come to pass in the future. You folks have the chance.....to make a damn good healthcare system !

Instead I see more REBELLION, than I see future building of anything in the USA today. SHAME !!

This has NOTHING AT ALL to do with socialism, being a liberal or anything else......it has a LOT to do with what is right for EVERYONE, not just one persons opinion, or anti-establishment-tarism. We are NOT socialists up here in Canada......we are CANADIANS....SENSIBLE democratic and CARING persons......Oh Yeah - FRIENDLY TOO, once you get to know us.

As for that gent from Carolina.....he is SCARY !

[TCups]

Booo!   Moooooo?

Yes, I am probably very scary to many on the left.  Well educated.  Conservative.  Politically active.  Legally registered to possess and carry firearms.  And I have camo and run around in the woods with my firearms.  Characterize that as scary and terrorist-like all you want.  I, on the other hand think you are scary, ignorant of the lessons of history, and dangerous to the extent you seem to extol the virtues of socialism and unfailing support the leftist views.  I think you are part of the state run heard.

[EdNunya]

Which gent from Carolina?  We can't all be scary...

73
Semper Fi
Ed

[EdNunya]

Unless your talking about that ambulance chaser John Edwards...

(snicker)

73
Semper Fi
Ed

[whipperwilly]

LIGHTEN UP T-CUP......no matter how much ammo you stock up on for your potatoe gun, no matter how you rant and rave, no matter how much you hate Obama......you CAN'T change the outcome of your civil war.....THE south LOST ! Them Damn YANKEES WON !!!

It sound to me like you are the president of one of those INSURANCE companies that stand to LOOSE BIG TIME if a new healthcare system does come to be in the USA......sounds to me like you are AFRAID ! Does ripping off your fellow americans mean that much to you ??

As for Canadians being Socialist......WRONG again.....that big "S" stands for "SENSIBLE" !

As for Americans not coming to canada for their healthcare.....wrong again...they HAVE ! Problem is we discourage it becasue them DAMN insurance companies in your USA STIFF us for the costs.....refuse to PAY UP! As for those americans that kept coming up here for their drugs, the SAME drugs as in the USA, but CHEAPER COST, we had to pass a LAW to STOP THEM....we could NOT MAKE THE DRUGS FAST ENOUGH to meet your demand for them.

Yeah, we only have one TENTH your population.....BUT we built a nation and formed the LARGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD in terms of area, only when you start forming REPUBLICS - many countries together do we come in.... SECOND ! The USA took ten times the personel and had to use FORCE to make theirs ???

ALSO.....guess which country...the ONLY country that ever beat the USA at WAR was......"CANADA" ! Then we were decent enough to give BACK the lands we took from ya.....even back then we were "FRIENDLY".

Better start reading your MEDICAL NEWS JOURNAL.....you just might notice that a LOT of the worlds NEW medical cures.....are coming from CANADA ! A LOT MORE than are coming out of the US these days !

Oh by the way.....Canada is coming out of this past economic breakdown SMILING.....when did you say you folks plan to START ?!

TCUP -> maybe you should take a trip up to Canada for a visit.....you JUST MIGHT LEARN a thing or two !

I set out in this discussion as an act of FRIENDSHIP......but your *_*_*_*_*_*WOOD ATTITUDE I find offensive !

I wish all americans GOOD LUCK in the days to come with their NEW healthcare.....with folks like TCUP running around lose...you are going to NEED IT !

BYE !

[TCups]

Yes.  Scary, aren't we.  Need to lock up those who don't agree and who responsibly exercise the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution this nation's founding fathers had the foresight to secure.

Been to Canada many times.  Nice folks across the board, thought the French-Canadians are a bit -- what? -- "apart" from the rest of the very friendly folks there.

I don't believe I expressed hatred for President Obama, only intense dislike for his socialist policies and grave doubts about his qualifications to "re-make America".

I, too, am offended -- by having you calling me a racist, but I am sure that was what you intended, and I have become accustomed to that sort of response from those who can make no other substantive arguments -- only ad hominem attacks.  But comments like those, sir, are prohibited on this forum.  Please refrain from it.

As for Canadians, you have socialized medicine, no matter what you care to call it or how you package it, and to that extent, Canadians are socialists, at least in regards to the approach to health care -- the topic where this friendly thread started, as I recall.  And the point, again without debating the political principles of a nation's founding or past wars, is this: your country has, a much smaller population and substantially different demographics than that of the USA, with some rather profound consequences when it comes to medical care, socialized or private.  Sorry that apparently offends you.  

Canadian drug re-importation?  See:

http://www.aims.ca/library/MPPI_pharma-revised_.pdf

Glad things are going well for you in Canada.  We here in the USA still have some problems to work through, but we are working on it, eh?  Please pardon my apparent lack of light-heartedness.  It is, admittedly, quite hard for me to "lighten up" when my present government is trampling the Constitution, confiscating private wealth, nationalizing private industries, mortgaging my children's future and usurping the freedoms Americans of my generation were raised to appreciate and defend, some to the death.  Maybe one day, I will reach your current level of enlightenment, sir.  Until then, let us agree to disagree.

PS:  I don't quite know what the "*** WOOD ATTITUDE" comment was, but I suspect it was derogatory and non-productive as well.  I do indeed love the deep woods of southern climax hardwood forests, and I am blessed to have a second home in one of the few remaining temperate rain forests in North America.  But if my attitude comes in part from Southern heritage and a sincere love for the back woods and kind of people I find living here, then I shall proudly accept that label.  And you, too, are invited to come on down sometime for a fact-finding trip to our neck of the woods.  Bring your own camo, and I have enough guns and ammo for both of us.

[gamo2hammerli]

Well, I'm a Canadian.....and as everyone have said.....there's good and bad in our health care system.  I would surmise it's like that almost everywhere.

I've heard of old timers with too much time on their hands going to the clinic everyday to visit a doctor.....most of the time just to talk with the other old timers waiting in the waiting room!!!!  This ruins everything for the rest of us.....  And of course, there's the ones that get medicine for free lots of times even though they don't need them.

Then there's the good....where everybody gets to see a doctor and get a bed in the hospital eventually!!!!!  If a person is injured at work or have personal medical insurance....they're the first to get in and operated on if necessary.  If you happened to get injured or sick outside of those two categories ....you still get to see a doc in a clinic....get at appointment but CAN get pushed down the waiting list by those above mentioned causes.  Some people with money who cannot wait go abroad....usually the States.....to get their problem fixed.