Author Topic: Piston weight  (Read 14145 times)

Offline William_SA

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Piston weight
« on: March 07, 2007, 05:47:39 PM »
Hi All,
I am new to your forum, so if Im posting this question in the wrong place, please dont crucify me :-)

This question is for the tuners out there : Would reducing the weight of the piston and tophat in my springer reduce the lock time significantly? I have not found articles on airgun tuning that deal with this.
My reasoning is that if you reduce the weight of the moving parts , for example by using lighter materials and/or drilling holes, the lock time should come down.

Is there any reason why this is not standard practice when doing a professional tune on an airgun?

Thanks guys!

William - South Africa
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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2007, 06:16:43 PM »
I would assume that the heavyer tophat would be just like using a heavyer flywheel. To help smooth out the pulses that the compressing of air and spring are making, and make the gun smoother to the shooter also. i dono if im right or wrong but just my .02

Jason



oh and welcome :) we wont crucify you to bad  j.k  j.k  you wont find a better and friendlyer froum anywhere out there.

Offline William_SA

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2007, 06:45:01 PM »
That makes sense. I suppose one has to make a compromise between a smooth firing cycle and quick lock time.

Thanks for the welcome! From what i have seen this forum is very friendly!
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Offline Gene_SC

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 11:22:57 PM »
Hi William

Welcome aboard the GTA...:) Hey that is a great question for your first post and we don't crucify members here... We just tar and feather them and send them on there way... hehe. No that is not a problem William, we have some great moderators here who will move the post to there appropriate place on the forum.. :) Of course they will let you know where they put it so you don't think it got deleted..:) Anyway we don't delete posts unless they are really in bad taste.

Back to your question.. I think both you and Jason are right.. I am not a tuner but have watched CDT do many tunes and depending on other factors, different top hats are used for variouse reasons. Bob could explain this better than me and he will probably pitch in and give us an education on the subject matter...:)I have also noticed that manufacturers change the size of top hats in various models of air guns through years of manufacturing them. But anyway what do I know... hehe

Good luck and have fun

Gene
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Offline DanoInTx

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2007, 11:55:22 PM »
We don't crucify new members here, building wooden crosses takes time and lumber aint cheap....nope, we'll just shoot you, deal?!?!?!?!

This however is a great question, so just this time we'll let you live:)  Welcome to the forum, hope to hear a bunch more from you....unless we decide to shoot you after all!

btw: I am no tuner, but I would also agree that the heavier top hat helps smooth things out....but one of our pro tuners will hopefully jump in here shortly.

Dan
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Offline shadow

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2007, 12:11:54 AM »
Just wanted to welcome you to the GTA family William. I'm sure our fellow member's here will lead you in the right direction. I do have some spare lumber on hand and I will need some measurment's from you. weight, and how tall are? hehe. Again welcome. Ed
I airgun hunt therefore I am... };)  {SHADOWS Tunes & Camo}  airguncamo@yahoo.com

Offline William_SA

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2007, 01:07:55 AM »
Hey everyone, thanks for the warm welcome!

Shadow, im 6'2" so dont use the expensive wood, it just wouldnt do to waste so much wood on a newbie :-)
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Offline longislandhunter

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2007, 02:13:36 AM »
Like the others I just wanted to welcome you William.  It's nice to have you aboard :)

Jeff
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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2007, 01:33:52 AM »
I found this article on pyramidair's blog today... should help you out some in answering your question...

by B.B. Pelletier

William made an observation that lighter powerplant components would speed up locktime in a spring-piston airgun. I have had some experience with lightweight components, as well as some very heavyweight components, so I thought I'd make my answer today's posting!

What is locktime?
Locktime is an old term that I believe originated in the days of flintlock rifles and muskets. A flintlock has a very long time from when the cock that holds the flint falls against the frizzen and the main powder charge ignites. After that, it's just as fast as a caplock. If you watch the movie Patriot, you'll see this clearly. The priming charge in the pan goes off several milliseconds before the main charge of gunpowder ignites. You see and hear two distinct explosions.

A good flintlock was one with a fast locktime, so there was less time for the shooter to flinch before the bullet left the muzzle. Having a charge of powder explode in front of your face is good cause to flinch!

Locktime and firearms
When self-contained cartridges came into use, locktime evolved to mean the time it took the hammer to fall against the primer after the sear released it. Again, faster was considered better at reducing random movement; though, if you examine that critically, you'll be able to poke holes in the logic. Rather than fast locktime, a shooter is far better off with a more neutral hold and good follow-through. Hoping for a fast locktime seems bent on sniping the target at the critical moment it is in the sights, and it's actually better to keep it there longer than to hope for a coincidental miracle.

Locktime and airguns
When it comes to airguns, locktime has to be considered for each powerplant separately, but William's observation was about a spring-piston gun, so that's what I'll review. Locktime has no bearing at all on a spring-piston gun, and here's why. In a spring-piston gun, the pellet doesn't start moving until the piston has almost come to a rest. A fast locktime wouldn't help accuracy, because that pellet isn't going to move until all the recoil and vibration patterns have begun. Whether it takes one millisecond or ten milliseconds for the piston to stop after being released by the sear/piston catch makes no difference, because the pellet is still stationary at the end of it all.

That said, there have been experiments done to lighten powerplant parts and speed up the piston cycle time. Jim Maccari made a plastic piston to test this very thing and installed it in a TX200 MkII. The gun was lighter but vibrated so hard that it stung the off hand holding the stock. No additional accuracy was noted.

Tom Gore of Vortek made a gas spring for a Beeman R1 that was .75 lbs. lighter than the steel piston and coil mainspring in the stock gun. This unit was incredibly quick and also vibration-free. It did improve the actual accuracy because the lack of recoil and vibration made the rifle easier to shoot accurately. Gore went on to do the same thing for the Beeman Kodiak, which is the Webley Patriot. It reduced the weight of the gun and almost eliminated vibration and recoil entirely.

Another gentleman attempted to build a more powerful spring rifle by scaling up the Beeman R1 by 25 percent. His 11-lb. monster had bigger everything...a bigger piston and a bigger mainspring that was harder to cock, at 75 lbs. of force. But the power was actually less than what a stock R1 had, because the bigger parts took longer to cycle. Recoil was about like the Webley Patriot, which is to say, brutal. Accuracy was average, despite the rifle's Anschutz barrel.

Perhaps, the greatest experience I've had with a balanced spring-piston powerplant was with an R1 tuneup kit from Ivan Hancock. The mainspring was incredibly powerful and the piston was heavy, but the parts fit so tight they had to be forced into the rifle with a rubber hammer. When that gun shot, it developed 22.5 foot-pounds of energy in .22 caliber, yet the recoil was less than half that of the stock rifle. Vibration was virtually gone and the locktime was very fast. That gun taught me that it isn't any one factor that's important to the performance of a spring gun - rather, it's how they all work together.

By the way - yesterday was the day for shooting. I finally got a wind-free day at the range, so next week I'll get back to the Whiscombe and address several of those questions we've been wondering about for so long.

Offline Gene_SC

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2007, 02:09:03 AM »
Very interesting Jason. The next to last paragraph kinda wrapped it up for the springer mods. With parts that are machined with close tolerances and a good spring, makes for a good shooter..:) LOL... And that brings me to CDT's Super Turbo Tunes. I have watched him tear down customer's guns and again watched him go to work with his micrometers, measuring tubes, springs, cylinders, etc etc. after he had degreased and debuted all the parts. Then he take a new spring out and mics it and goes over to his lathe and puts in a raw piece of material and starts cutting and measuring ever couple passes. It is quite amazing to watch him go through so many steps with fitting and matching parts. I have seen him take a finished piece that looked to me like was perfect and throw it in the trash... lol Go figure.. But his thought is to make these parts fit as perfect as possible.. And I sure love that attitude.. hehe

Gene
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Offline Big_Bill

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 03:33:51 AM »
Hello William,

Welcome to the GTA Forum, The Friendliest Forum on the web, Heck! they even let me post ! hahaha....

The knowledge of our members is amazing ! We have some of the best tuners here, and when they see your question you'll wonder, what the heck are they talking about ?

But fear not, no one will hurt you, unless you go to the Hunting Forum, them fellows will eat anything that moves !

By the way, how is the Air Gun Sport in South Africa ?

Bill
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Always Use A Spring Compressor ! and Buy the GREAT GRT-III & CBR Triggers, cause they are GRRRREAT !

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 10:44:19 AM »
Look at any piston off a late model superbike - the are basically  flat alloy disks w/ piston rings- no 'cylinder' to speak of. And sure as heck NOT steel! Reason? Minimization of deccelerative forces at the end of the piston stroke in an effort to  quell vibration and increase RPM. And it works real good, too.

William - I am going to go way out on a limb and incite the masses ("The Monster in in the castle! LIGHT THE TORCHES!!!")
 
A lighter piston would reduce lock time AND reduce forward recoil.

Assumption -  the gun would  be engineered appropriately around the "new" technology. You couldn't just slap a light piston in any ol' gun and realize benefits, which is what some experimenters have attempted. Hence, failure.

My best guess as to why this has not been done already; a combination of a lack of imagination in conjunction with a need to meet a perceived price point.

Gather the pitchforks!!!

Offline CharlieDaTuna

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RE: Piston weight
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 12:35:27 PM »
Well it looks like it has been pretty well covered but I might add that with a lightened piston or tophat, the lock time is reduced, however, the lighter the piston and/or tophat, the greater the possibility of spring or seal damage because of detonation, heavy pellets and even dieseling in some cases depending on the gun. That added weight helps to keep the piston from being driven back easily.

 If the piston or tophat is too light, the piston can actually bounce off the column of compressed air as the piston reaches the bottom of the cylinder and with combustion and/or detonation, actually drive the piston backwards (sometimes referred to as piston bounce) , driving both the piston and spring backwards to a point where it will actually drive it to coil bind. Do that a few times and you have a very fatigued spring and perhaps even broken.

 By the same token, if it's too heavy, and the compression is excessive you can have excessive dieseling and also increases the possibility detonation with less fuel in addition to the fact that the piston can slam home creating greater forward recoil and cause seal damage to boot..

Lock time can also be important in accuracy. Even though from the time you pull that trigger until the pellet exits the barrel everything seems to happens very fast, but it actually doesn't. In the blink of an eye you can shift the gun and not even realize it. You should always keep your gun sighted on the target after you pull the trigger until impact. Then you can be sure that first of all, that you didn't "pull" the gun off target until the pellet has actually left the barrel. If you learn to do that, watch your accuracy improve. The other reason is that your hold sensitivity will be constant.  Both can be extremely important when determining accuracy as well as consistency.

If you doubt that, ask some of the guys that punch the eyes out of critters a 30-40 yards or more. What say ye Jeff?  You probably have as good a shooting technique as anybody here I would guess.
Bob  aka:  CharlieDaTuna
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Offline William_SA

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Re: Piston weight
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 10:23:28 PM »
Thanks Guys! I've learnt a lot already! From what all of you tell me, I deduce the following. A light piston does improve lock time, but there are also negative side effects if one is not carefull, like piston bounce etc. It is better to have a well balanced system, with close tolerances and the CORRECT piston weight for your spring/pellet combination.

Oh yes, eighty8fierogt, I did read the post on pyramid air, I am the william he is talking about :-)

Big Bill, I would say that most people in South Africa only see airguns as toys. Unfortunately, there are too many people that shouldnt be allowed to handle a kithchen knife that have access to airguns. You can buy a cheap chinese airgun from a hawker by the side of the road for R300 (thats about $30), it wont be accurate, but it can seriously injure someone and then everyone wants to regulate airguns! The positive side is that we have many serious airgunners that are trying to actively promote the sport and safety, but its an uphill battle. I see that some schools now have airgun target shooting as a school sport and that is encouraging. One problem i have is that, while we have no limit on the power of our guns, the government does limit the caliber to .177 or .20, if you want anything bigger than that, you need a Firearms license.

Oh, and silencers are not regulated here. lucky us :-)

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Offline taxonomy

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Airguns trigger to target
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2007, 03:13:35 AM »
I've been reading the complex and hard to read Airguns from Trigger to target. This is pretty much what I understand.

As the piston is released and starts to move air before it the pellet remains static until it's inertia is broken.  This happens comparatively late, around the time peak pressure is reached, near the  end of it's stroke. When this happens there is a cushion of highly compressed air before the piston.  Generally speaking the back of the spring is no longer in contact with the back of the chamber. Everything is sort of floating, like when you toss a ball into the air and it hangs motionless for a second before coming back down.

Before the end of the potential maximum stroke of the piston it begins to move back because it' spent most of it's energy and the pellet is still moving relatively slowly holding the compressed air behind it.  As the piston bounces backwards the pressure drops off dramatically as the volume of the compressed air before it expands and energy transfer to the pellet is diminished. This is to say the energy is used to push the heavy piston backwards instead of pushing the pellet forward. A heavier piston reduces this effect.

My understanding is that a lighter piston/top hat would just move faster and still expend the same amount of energy (felt as recoil) but it would do it by moving faster instead of weighing more. The energy in the spring remains the same so the transfer of energy as recoil would occur.  You can't loose that energy without a damping device. You can change the shape of the graph but you cant just erase it. So, pick your poison, but you will get poisoned.

Moreover the piston would begin to bounce back sooner with a lighter piston as it contacts the highly compressed air behind the pellet.  So, the extra energy that a heavier piston would capture would be lost, the pellet would leave the gun more slowly and lock time would increase. The ideal thing would be a mechanical catch what would stop a piston from bouncing back.  It's been tried and it's impossible in the nanosecond environment inside a springer. But stopping the piston before it moves back would increase power because that energy lost as the piston move back would be transferred into the pellet, it would accelerate faster, leave quicker, and reverse recoil would be ameliorated. If someone figures a mechanical catch for pistons that'll work it could be the next quantum leap in springer tech.

There is a balance between the total accelerated mass of piston, top hat, spring, swept area, caliber, barrel length, peak pressure, internal friction, and pellet weight and shape and fit, lube etc.

The one area we have a lot of control over is pellet selection and that can count for a lot.  In multi factorial equations like this you're not really just (e.g.) changing weight of the pellet, you're changing all of the relationships. So, you can have a lot of effect on something by switching one thing.

Someone like Charlie/Bob or Rich that's worked with a lot of the BXX guns and Gamos has a good intuitive sense of how these things interrelate and that's what you pay for with a tune. It's so freaking complex a super computer might have a hard time cracking it.  This is the beauty of human intelligence. We're great guessers. Computers are not.


Adam

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