New member, old question :-)

Hi!  I need some advice from experienced airgun users.  I target shoot .22 rifles, so I have experience with guns in general, but I would like to purchase an airgun so I can target shoot at home in the back yard, and also I need to eliminate some pest animals like rabbits and house sparrows from my yard as well.  I think my two boys, 16 and 12, would also enjoy hunting small game like squirrel and rabbit.  

So, as you see, my needs are wide.  :-)  My price range is US$100-$150 because I really don't want to spend a lot on something that may not fit our needs and also that may get somewhat abused by the boys.  I think I need a .22 cal. rifle to start.  And a 'springer' as you call them would probably be needed for the power to kill small game.  What I have looked at online so far is the Crosman rifles, like the Phantom and Summit.  I called Pyramydair.com and asked for their suggestions too -- she didn't think too highly of Crosman and recommended the RWS 34 highly, with a Leapers 3-9x50 scope.  That's a little outside my target price range, although I am not opposed to spending a little more to get vastly better quality.  I have not looked at anything else yet, like Gamo or Hammerli.

Can you offer some suggestions (or a web page here if you already have one set up) to fit my airgun beginner needs and budget?  I assume that if the airgun works out to fit my needs, I would 'upgrade' at some point in the future if needed.

Thanks!

[daved]

Hi, Cass, welcome aboard!

Brace yourself, I suspect you will get LOTS of responses to you questions!  I just wish the answers were as simple as it seems they should be.  In your stated price range of $100 to $150, there are some very good guns available.  Problem is, I can't think of a one that's really good right out of the box.  Most spring guns need a lengthy break in period, 1000 or more shots before they settle down and smooth out.  Most in your price range also have pretty poor triggers, which means extra cost to deal with.  If you're used to target .22's, you WON'T be happy with the stock triggers on most (any?) lower priced air rifles.

If you go springer, there's a learning curve, and a lot of shooting needed.  Spring guns don't shoot like anything else, and being used to powder burners is probably a disadvantage.  Also, air guns can be very picky about which pellets they shoot well, so you need to be willing to invest in the time and cost to find which works best in the gun you choose.  And watch out for scopes, the same thing that makes them challenging to shoot makes the extremely tough on scopes.  Springers recoil back like a normal firearm, but they also recoil forward.  That's what tears up scopes.

If you haven't looked aroud the forum much yet, be sure to check out the Product Reviews and the Library.  Lots of good info there, you'll probably find answers to questions you didn't even know you had.

To actually answer your question, my personal experience is with Gamo's, RWS, and Beeman, in order of increasing cost.  I think the Gamo guns are an excellent value, but they need a better trigger.  The stock trigger is lousy, heavy and inconsistent.  Expect to spend $10 to $30 to fix it.  They respond very well to tuning, but other than the trigger, they're not bad out of the box.

RWS guns are a definite step up in quality, but personally, I don't know that they're as good a bang for the buck as the Gamo guns.  The stock trigger is better, but I was never able to get mine how I wanted it.  And they tend to ship with minimum lubes, so they can be pretty rough to shoot at first.  A lube tune was a big help with my 350, but I still ended up selling it.  Just too much gun for my needs.

Despite what Pyramyd said, I've heard good and bad about the Crosman rifles.  Luck of the draw.  One thing to watch for, lots of guns come from the same source, mostly China, but carry different names.  Again, check out the Product Reviews.  Vince and some of the othees have have done an excellent job sorting some of this out.

If I was in you position, I'd get one of the Gamo Hunter 440's for $120 from Natchez.com (if still available), a Leapers or Tasco scope, and either a trigger insert from Rich in Mich. or a new blade from Bob Werner, aka CharlieDaTuna.  Read all you can, and shoot it a LOT!  And if you have any question, post them here.  This is a great forum, and seems to be unique the way it feels.  Check around some other forums, you'll see what I mean.  Good luck, and have fun!  Keep us posted on what you end up with.

Dave

OOPs, almost forgot.  I'd go .177 for a first air rifle.  For what you want to do, it'll be quite sufficient.  Check out the Hunting gate for more info.

[Big_Bill]

Hello Bryan,

Welcome to the GTA FORUMS, the Friendliest AirGun Forum on the Web !

I know that you will receive many replies to your questions, and many will be from the most informed and knowledgeable airgunners around.

While your waiting for your answers check out our Library, there you will find a wealth of information !

Looking forward to reading your posts.

Bill

[longislandhunter]

Hello Bryan and welcome to the forum.

Dave pretty much covered everything I would say to you so no need for me to expand on his post to much.  I agree with Dave that the GAMO rifles give a good bang for the buck,,, I also agree with  Dave that the GAMO 440 for $119 buck from natchez is a great deal     ........here's the site.........................

http://www.natchezss.com/category.cfm?contentID=productList&category=20&brand=OS&mfgGroup=50&subgroup=1453&CFID=2513730&CFTOKEN=39202641

Dave is also correct in that the GAMO stock trigger would definitely require either a new blade or an insert to transform it into a good shooter.

Another suggestion I would make would be a B26 chinese rifle.  They come in .22 if you really feel you need it, although I think .177 would do just fine for your needs.  I have one and I have to tell you it's a beautifully smooth shooter for the money, and the trigger on it is fantastic.   Here's a link..

http://bestairgun.stores.yahoo.net/rifles.html

This rifle is a clone of the Beeman R-9 which is one of the more expensive guns. I have an R-9 and also have a B26-2 (has the thumbhole stock but same gun as the B-26) and I have to tell you that B26 shoots almost as smoothly as my $500 Beeman.  

Anyway, like the others have said... spend some time reading the reviews here, as well posts in general regarding different guns,,, then you'll be able to make a better informed decision.  

Look forward to your future post.  

Jeff

Thank you!  Yes, I have actually shot a spring airgun before, about 10 years ago, so I am familiar with the "fore-coil" action of the spring.  I actually like the idea of being able to vary the power with a pump gun, but it seems like for hunting, the variability in fps (and corresponding variability in trajectory?) would be a setback for accuracy.  Or am I wrong on that?

By the way, I am currently borrowing a friend's Crosman 2200 pump rifle to take care of some house sparrows that are invading my bluebird nest boxes.  I have hit 3 so far, out of maybe 10-15 shots from about 10 yards (from the house windows).  As you can tell, it's not very accurate, even with the scope that's on it.  That's one reason I want to get my own airgun.

So the Gamo 440 is a decent gun?  You'd buy it online rather than Walmart or a local store?  And which Tasco scope are you thinking about?  I figure if we're going to hunt with it, we need a big enough lens to let enough light in at dusk to see well - like a 40-50mm size?  Focus is a must for my aging eyes, but zoom is not necessary.

And from most of what I've read so far, a .22 is better for hunting small game because it has more impact power.  But you think a .177 pellet could take a rabbit or squirrel OK?

I'll take a look at the library section here -- thanks for all your help!

[Gene_SC]

Hello Bryan.. I also welcome you to the GTA.. Boyh Dave and Jeff have given you some very good suggestions.. I also think a .177 would be sufficient for around the house.. I may add that for the price of the Gamo 440 you woulld be getting a wood stock.. remember wood scratches and can get alot of dings etc. when you have young boys shooting them..

This would be my suggestion,,:) Buy a .177, B26 for around $140.00. The reason being that it is a great shooter out of the box and does not need any trigger work... I know once you buy this air rifle you will have to attend our AGA Meetings once a week...  Air Gun Annoynemouse.

Gene

Id recommend a qb-78 or 79.  They can be tuned to supply sufficent power for small game (nothing larger than a squrrel tho in my recommendation). And thye will defenatly shoot like your target .22's.

I think I want something that just works out of the box.  The QB78 is cheap enough, but if you have to tune it excessively, I'd probably pass.

[daved]

If you don't mind pumping, it can be a good way to go, especially for the ability to vary the power.  I can't get excited about pumping, that's why I have a 1377 pistol for sale :-)!  Other than that, I don't know anything about them.

The Gamo Hunter series, the Shadows, and the CFX all share the same powerplant.  And it's a good one, but it doesn't produce 1000 fps.  Which is just as well, pellets and high velocity don't mix.  Once you get much over 900 fps, the accuracy starts going to hell, sometimes even slower, depending on the gun.  We all get sucked into magnumiitis, especially those of us that migrate to airguns from powder burners.  Higher velocity is better, right?  NOT!  The diabolo pellet was designed to be a low speed projectile, and will not stabilize at higher velocities.  Anyway, at 10 yards, any of the Gamos should be able to stack pellets, assuming the shooter does his job.  And all shoud be capable of 1" or less out to 40 yards or so, again, depending on the shooter.

I know what you mean about aging eyes, I have 6 or 8 pairs of reading glasses scattered around :-)!  I use a Leapers 3-12 x44 scope, that seems to be about the perfect range for me, and the 44 mm gives me plenty of light.  Lots of guy like the Tasco Golden Antler, but I think that was just discontinued.  I haven't looked at a Tasco in years, so have no personal opinion.

Re: .22 vs. .177, check the hunting gate.  We have two master hunters, Shadow and LongIslandHunter, that use .177's for all kinds of game.  The key is shot placement, rather than power.  Yes, the .22 has more knock down power, but the trajectory isn't nearly as flat, unless you get a true magnum air rifle.  At which point, the price jumps, and they just aren't as much fun to shoot.  Later.

Dave

[longislandhunter]

Hey Bryan,

Dave is correct about the effectiveness of .177 for small game hunting.  It will easily take a rabbit or squirrel, or similar sized game, if the shot placement is good.  Dave hit the nail on the head when it comes to air gun hunting,,,,, shot placement is the key.  

I have several .22 cal air rifles for hunting, a couple of them are magnums, and they serve me extremely well as small game weapons, but my .177's kill game just as efficiently.  The key with both calibers is simply shot placement.  I will admit that when using one of my .22's I will take a clear vital zone body shot if it presents itself, something I might shy away from with a .177, but 99% of the time I'm going for head shots no matter what caliber I'm using.  

Dave is also correct concerning the .177 being a much flatter shooter than the .22, something to consider, especially if your sons are going to be using the rifle.  I'm not trying to persuade you to either caliber, you will make your own choice, just wanted to let you know I hunt with both all the time and both of them are effective hunting tools.  

As for scopes,,,, again, this is a matter of personal choice, but that being said I have always had great luck with the Leapers brand.  My favorite of their scope is the 3x9x50 mildot illuminated reticle scope.  I have several of them and they work extremely well for me.  

Cheaperthandirt.com       has good prices on them, as well as other scopes.  Other places have good prices also.  Team up one of the Leapers with an Accushot 1 piece mount and you're set to go.  Just my opinion regarding the scope, I'm sure the others will give you other opinions and options.  

Jeff

[Gene_SC]

If you live where the weather is below 65 degrees for any amount of time then you will not be useing the QB alot.. The Co2 only works best in 65 degrees and up.. You also have to deal with periodic leaks, and you need to be able to know how to tear one down and repair it..

Your best bet is a self contained springer like the B26 which will work great out of the box with no repairs for years, in any weather condition.... All you need are pellets... hehe,  and no Co2 to deal with..

That is what I suggest for your first springer air rifle.... then work up..

Gene

Thank you Gene -- you're a good man.  :-)

OK, I have to admit to you all now that I am overloaded with info.  :-)  I read through some product reviews, read the classifieds (the RWS 34 is sold, dang it), looked at the library, flipped through the Natchez, Pyramyd, Galati and some other sites.... too much to digest.

I guess I just want a recommendation that I can start with -- just buy it, use it, form an opinion, and maybe in a year or two, I'll have a rack full like Gene.  ;-)

So from this thread and a couple others here, I have the Gamo 440, B26, Q78 (is this a CO2?).  For scopes, I'm not as clear... a BSA, Leapers or Tasco 4x32 with some kind of mount that will work on the gun?  I am leaning toward the Gamo 440 over the B26 jsut based on price alone.  Is the exta cost for the B26 worth it?

Which scope for target and game hunting would you recommend with either of these guns?  I don't want anything fancy, just something that does well what it's supposed to do.

Thanks again guys!

[3n00n]

Check to see if the action is loose on that 2200 because that is a SERIOUS shooter and can hit .22 rimfire cases at 25 yards consistantly.

I shoot mine almost everyday and shoot .410 hulls at 30 to 35 yards offhand regularly.

One inexpensive shooter isthe 1377 and can be built into a tack driving24" barrel 1322 pushing 700+ fps for under $100 if you build it yourself and will tear up dimes at 30 yards.

Crosman pump guns with rifled barrels have been tack drivers in my collection for decades. The 760 has probably taken more squirrel than all of my other guns combined.

A .177 diana 52 does have more starling to its creditthough.

http://www.crookedbarn.com/new_page_7.htmForthe Jim Gilescrooked barn version ofbreech and bolt.

http://www.bryanandac.com/new_page_4.htmRon Sauls sells24" barrels and 1377 shoulder stocks also.

Some of theinexpensive spanish made gamo springersare also tack drivers out to 40 yards.

Used german springers may sometimes be less than $150 though fairly rare that happens. $300 would be more reasonable for a fine used german springer. If you get magnumiti$ then that figurecan easily double.

Yes, very much addicted to air, as are several others here.

So that said, in all fairness~jmo &ymmv

[shadow]

Bryan. WELCOME, and theres not much that I can add, our great fellow member's filled you in nicely. I hunt with everything from a $20 B3 to a B26-2, Gamo Shadow Sport etc., all .177 . As said any question's about a .177 taking a rabbit etc. just check the Hunting Gate. hunting, Ed

[Gene_SC]

Well that is debatable... I am a Gamo person.. I have 13 Gamo Air Rifles alone... hehe.. I only suggested the B-26 because it is good to go out of the box.. If you figuer a trigger for the Gamo 440, you will be at same price.. ....... As far as scopes go, it depends on how far you are shooting... And how good your eyes are... Each person will nedd to adjust for there own eyes... I would sggest a variable power scope initially, since there are more thatn one person goning to shoot the Air Rifle.. Get a Air Rifle rated scope with a single piece mount. You can get an Accushot mount for about $15.00 which is about the best solid mount you can buy at that price.. There are lots of deals on scopes... Check out Natchez for sales...

LOL, we are bombarding you with info.... lol .. But we are experienced and have been where you are now..

Gene