Author Topic: Scope shim question.  (Read 5828 times)

Offline TAJ45

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2010, 10:56:18 AM »
Hard to believe this thread is this long and no one has mentioned the Burris Signature rings with the offset inserts...........think gimball mount.  I converted to these on nearly all of my varmint guns some 8 years ago at the recommendation of a super seasoned shooter.

I have inserts that I have positioned from 12-6, 3-9 as well as 2-8 to get the reticle centered.  You will NEVER mar a scope with these either.  The problem is the aluminum tube on the scope which is what can be bent.  If your rings are aligned, raising one ring independently of the other puts two planes acting on the scope tube.  The old "I can get away with .005 or a pop can slice" or whatever shim you desire is not in the best interest of your scope.  If your base is one piece, you can shim for verticle as both rings are on the same plane as the base - because it is one piece.  Once the scope goes to two piece bases which is probably somewhat rare in AG apps, you are torquing your tube.

In either case, there isn't a clean, no stress way to obtain a windage offset.  Why put an umpty hunnert dollar scope under stress for the sake of "saving" $35 on rings?  And that's not counting the cost of the other rings.

The Burris Signatures come with "0" offsets except for the 30mm tube apps and those have 10's.  5, 10 and 20 are available with the 1" rings.  No, I don't sell these things but they are the neatest thing since sliced bread.

IIRC the 5, 10, 20 are the approximate moa on a 5" spacing application............On my long range powder burners I have at least one set of 20's and one in particular, two - front and rear.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.  Hit the target!  All else is twaddle.

\"Speed is fine but accuracy is final.\"  Wyatt Earp, 1888.

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2010, 11:09:06 AM »
So you are suggesting that because I sell the hawke rings that they aren't so good...hmm. I have to say the other way around...I am selling them because they are that good. How much are the Burris? And are you talking about a set of rings rather than a one-piece? Mt solution makes it so that you never have the opportunity to damage the scope by maligning the rings...Like I said, on a good day I make about a dollar selling a set of the mounting that I am talking about. I am interested in selling scopes, and helping people. You may believe that the Burris solution is better -- and I don't know -- but compare them side-by-side before you go condemning someone for selling one rather than the other. And i disagree that there is not a 'no stress' wat yo obtain windage / elevation offset. There are ways. It starts with looking at the rail -- not the ring.
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline TAJ45

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2010, 01:05:03 PM »
Hey amigo.............said what I said as a general reply.  OK, I see now that it tailed under previous posts. Not a personal diatribe.  It seems that we are a might touchy about "condemning someone etc etc".  As I said, no offense meant and if you can find it in your heart, please forgive me.

Not having any first hand knowledge of your wares am in no way stating their worth or lack thereof or maligning their ability to align............in a vertical plane.

  What I did mention was that the Burris Sigs allow for windage as well as vertical.  The Hawkes being one piece would indeed keep the rings on the same plane - vertically and that's a good thing.  Still a potentially partial fix should there be a windage "situation" that needs more correction than the user would want to crank into his scope - with the idea of centering up the erector tube within the outer tube, i.e. windage.

Yes "ve haf vays" of correcting windage, starting with the ring, depending on type by shimming one side or the other.  I'd probably set it up in the mill, indicate true in relation to the base, mount the rings, indicate to same surface on front and back (the inner surface as the outer is immaterial and everything has a mfrg tolerance).  A lot of fun for those who have access to the equipment and very time consuming.  

Was mounting a Bushie 4200 last w/e and did NOT have my fav rings.  Had some Redfields iirc that had a screw on both sides so the chance for error was great in windage misalignment.  I bottomed ea screw on one side and backed off exactly two turns - the threads being a fine enought pitch that it should bring me within a couple of thou of being equal.  Shot my Izzy 46M for groups/pellet likes.  Trust me, I didn't crank the tube tight in the rings even though I felt reasonably secure with my methodology.  Being an SSP, my concerns were minimal re recoil and scope movement.  

Some BR folks like to lap their rings, and shoot for 70+% contact.  To each his own.  However, paying $35-45 for a set of rings with inserts, does away with shimming.  Now, shimming.  How many have shim stock at the ready?  You know, .001, .002, .005 etc etc?  I can make bolts all day but it sure is cheaper to go to the hardware store and buy'em by the sack.  Same with diddling around with pop cans, tape that compresses, plastic or stainless shim stock and then only knowing if things are truly aligned by using an indicator either before to know how much shim stock is required or afterward hoping that what is put in is enough.

As I said, the inserts, a gimbal mount principle just don't care about no steenking .015"..............the tube is securely, and lovingly embraced, never to be marred even when my calcs may have been off .010 or more for the remedy.  I've never marred a scope yet and hope I don't thru mental error..........cause that's what it will be, not the rings I use.

Now for a freebie for those who don't know this l'il trick.  To help prevent the scope from moving under recoil with regular rings, take ye olde Scotch type clear tape and line the rings and razor off the excess.  Just something an old BR shooter passed on.

Molon Labe
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.  Hit the target!  All else is twaddle.

\"Speed is fine but accuracy is final.\"  Wyatt Earp, 1888.

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2010, 01:20:53 PM »
Thre are hawke solutions that do windage and elevation, and frankly even though they are more expensive (and I profit more) I do not recommend them. The little screws, the PITA adjustments, and final reliability I am not all that convinced of. I suggest what I know works. Can you show some pictures about the solution you are talking about and why it makes a difference? I'd be glad to see a reason to sell something else...
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO

Offline TAJ45

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2010, 02:44:03 PM »
Just go to  the Burris site and see what they have to show.  Not sure when they hit the market but it was well before 2002 when I rejoined the shooting fraternity after a 20 year layoff.

Just one thing I have no experience with is the amount of droop that can be encountered............maybe a total of 40 moa would not be nearly enough to correct the situation.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.  Hit the target!  All else is twaddle.

\"Speed is fine but accuracy is final.\"  Wyatt Earp, 1888.

Offline Orin

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2010, 06:04:14 PM »
I checked out those Signature rings and am very impressed by their potential.  I had heard them mentioned, but never really gave them a second thought.  Thanks for pointing us in this direction.  I'm definitely going to pick up a set of the 30mm's.  Have you ever had a scope that wouldn't optically center (windage-wise) using both 0.010 inserts?  Just curious.

- Orin

Offline TAJ45

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2010, 09:14:34 PM »
I had a B&L shipped mounted, at my request (poor judgement) on a heavy bench gun.  Even though in an albeit inexpensive but foam lined case, double boxed, I could not get it on the bull.  Had to use a combo of 20's and 10 iirc.

Morale?  NEVER have a scope shipped  mounted as it is asking to have the tube bent...............When I told the friend who'd put me in touch with the owner about my problems, we finally whittled down the causative factor to my request.  His reaction was:  "Never ship mounted".  So I learned.

I think I ended up with 20's straight up and the 10's at about a 45° angle in the rings as the bend wasn't purely windage.  Still have the scope and gun..............shoots bug holes.

Molon Labe
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.  Hit the target!  All else is twaddle.

\"Speed is fine but accuracy is final.\"  Wyatt Earp, 1888.

Offline mlrs_27m

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thebookdoc, thank you.
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 07:35:32 AM »
I received the mount system today. Looks like a very nice set up. Thank you. I didnt think I would get it so fast.

Offline thebookdoc

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Re: Scope shim question.
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2010, 08:29:34 AM »
Had it shipped right from the headquarters -- and it went out the day you ordered! Glad it showed promptly. Let me know about your success with it!

Richard
THE GUNS:
     â€¢ Cometa Fusion Star (Gene tuned) 12/10/09
     â€¢ Cometa Fenix RWS 94 2/8/10
     â€¢ RWS Diana 48 .177 1/8/10 [TRADE for RWS 350]
     â€¢ Walther Force 1000 .177 11/11/09
     â€¢ TF89 .22 10/26/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ TF89 .177 (Gene tuned) 9/6/09
     â€¢ Remington Vantage 1200 .177 8/22/09 (Gene tuned 1/6/10)
     â€¢ Daisy 953 (pneumatic) 8/02/08
     â€¢ Gamo Big Cat 2/5/10 (broken...free...maybe gas piston?!)

THE SCOPES:  
     â€¢ Sightron SII 4-16x42 AO  
     â€¢ Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight EFR AO
     â€¢ Bushnell Trophy 6-18x42 AO  
     â€¢ Swift 686 High Recoil 6.5-20x44 AO  
     â€¢ Hawke Air Max 4-12x40 AO  
     â€¢ Bushnell Banner 6-18x50 AO