Author Topic: heavy pellets  (Read 3003 times)

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heavy pellets
« on: June 10, 2008, 04:08:40 AM »
i was reading in another post that a heavy pellet can damage the spring,
so what is to heavy?

Offline yel01z06

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Re: heavy pellets
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 05:30:49 AM »

Offline 3n00n

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Spring wire diameter usually determines the best weight
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 06:07:12 AM »
Thinner diameter spring wire is more 'stressed' by longer shot cycles caused by overweight pellets. In typical .177 builds, 6grain to 9grain pellets work well, and usually the rifle will be smoothest withsome certainpellet designnear 8grains.
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Since I've had CdT tune stuff for me, as well as other custom rebuilt springers that shootso smoothly, I have to shoot 'sproingers' every once in a while to remind myself exactly why these tunedbbguns are so special.
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Get one tuned correctly and a 'sproinger' just won't ever be the same again . . .

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RE: Spring wire diameter usually determines the best weight
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 07:19:16 AM »
I shoot the 10.5 gr Kodiak's in my G-1 and Quest because they are the most accurate pellets. Your only talking about1.5 grains of weight more. Are they damaging the spring? Probably according to the experts, but I'm not so sure with such a slight weight increase.  I really don't care. They are the MOST accurate pellet out of the many I have tried.Accuracy, that is the most important thing to me in any pellet gun. Springs are cheap and the Quest is a cheap but effective gun.My original (2006 Walmart special) Quest 1000 has over 10,000 kodiaks through it now, and I'm still waiting for it to break a spring. I just cronied it again the other day and it still is a consistant 750 fps with the kodiaks. Three tins ago it cronied 720fps, go figure? I've had three Quest based guns, and all have shot kodiaks the best. Also there are experts who dis-agree with the heavy pellets damaging a springer. I'm refering to Tom Gaylords pod cast discussion over on Pyramids site, and  references toTom Holzel in the old Beeman catalogs .

Offline 3n00n

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The spring wire diameter is . . .?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 08:41:55 AM »
Quest have been known to have .135" diameter springwire in them, but it isn't quite as consistant as say, a German built bbgun. Sometimes springs are good, sometimes brittle. Same with German springs.
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The original explaination remains valid, regardless ofone 'good' example. The point being, that the atypical Quest spring does allow for heavier pellets, and getting a measurement of the wire diameter may be a good starting referencepoint.
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Having a 'sproinger' tuned also has advantages, as many who own, or have shot tuned springers will attest to. Smooth, quick shot cycles with very low sd variations are normally much more accurate than an 'off the shelf' Chiclone from Wallyswurld . . .
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FWIW & YMMV

  • Guest
RE: The spring wire diameter is . . .?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 02:01:18 PM »
3n00n, I agree to a point, with what you say about the spring wire size, and gun quality, but a range of useful pellet weight to allow a low to high of only three to four grains is limiting. Exceed that and your gun will be possibly damaged? Sorry, I just don't agree with that. I feel that spring and gun damage in any springer air rifle with pellets that are only two or three  grains greater in weight to be non-issue in my experience.  I know this goes againist the advice given in the above link .  I think very light pellets to be much more damaging to guns than slightly heavier ones. I'm only basing this on my personal experience which involves several guns in both.177 and .22 cal. These include German,English , Spanish and Chinese guns . More than "one good example" to be sure, many more over the years, and not just a couple  of chi-com  Gamo clones from wally world. Also the observation that professionally tuned guns are more consistant is valid. I'm wouldn't argue that point at all. What I dis-agree with is that springs are cheap and have a service life, even in tuned guns, and high quality guns. You should shoot the type and weight pellet that is most accurate in your gun. If a Ram Jet .177 at 9.8 grains or a Kodiak  at 10.6 grs. shoots best you will not convince me that those weight pellets are going to damage my gun , and some  8.5 or 8.7 grain pellet won't, regardless of the gun's origin or vintage.

Offline Progun

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Re: heavy pellets
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 04:12:23 AM »
Hey Bob, there might be an explanation as to why three tins  ago your velocity was lower but now has returned to normal. Not all tins will weigh the same as advertised. All Kodiaks are advertised as 10.6 gr but I have a tin that averages a consistent 11.2 gr.I also agree with your logic that the pellet that shoots most accurately and retains the greatest downrange energy is the logical choice.

Offline cliffspot

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Re: heavy pellets
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 05:50:35 AM »
When I shoot Crosman heavies in my B26, I can feel it stutter or hiccup. never does that with lighter pellets. But I got a sample box from SS and will test the theory more. That hiccup can't be good! The B26 internals are the same as my R7; piston seal size but I think the piston is longer. I think guns with a heavier piston are more immune to this effect, also guns with heavier springs. I read a post from a guy that said his spring went south because he shot Cro Mags. I have been shooting Cro mags in my 177 R1 for years. The old spring had a little cant to it, nothing major. I have a JM GRT kit and seal in it. Will see how the heavies work. The R1 should be immune due to the heavier piston mass and the higher spring rate.
Research, use the right tools, take your time, and do it right the first time!

Offline 3n00n

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If it works for you, great . . .
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 06:22:01 AM »
My point isseveral tuners would probably consider me a friend,so we've had fairly long conversations about springs, the differences between OEM and ARH consistancy as well as why some springs 'shatter' including theunderlying causes.
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Detonation will do bad things, as well as 'dry firing'~including underweight pellets. Here is the kicker though, evenARH website made mention ofoverweight pelletssome time ago, but as usual,'foolishness' can only be dealt with bypreemptiveremoval of what certainly shouldn't be considered a controversial subject.
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Seem to be many experts in the bbgun field,but personally, I just haven't seen enough bbguns, or done work onenoughbbguns to consider myself any more than a minornovice . . .
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So best Iknow todo, is recommend to newbies what the people that have worked on hundreds or even thousands of airgunshave told me is the bestweight pellets to use, according to the spring size usedfor the design in question.
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FWIW & YMMV

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Re: heavy pellets
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 02:44:55 PM »
Yes, I agree every guns different and you got use some judgement. If you use  the .22 cal pellets as an example, and stick with the recomendation to not use pellets in spingers over the 15gr . suggested max, then you eliminate a lot of very good pellets. I count about 16  in .22 on Pyramids site that are over 15gr. These include  some good stuff, such as most of the Beeman's, JSB's, and Gamo's.  I'm certainly not suggesting using a real heavy pellet like a En-jin. Just stuff that goes maybe only 2 to 3 grains over the limit. Just suggesting to the guy with the Crosman and Kodiacks, not to sweat it, and have fun. I am only expressing my opinion, and assume all risk  to my own guns. Cliffspot, my RWS 320 (B-20),also hates heavy pellets . Would do the same thing yours does with anything heavier than superdomes, and it DID break a spring. I believe the wire dia. of the factory spring in that gun was around .118 dia. maybe a little less. It broke clean, near the guide, about 2 inches from the end. The problem I found with my gun is the stuff inside was not good quality. I actually like my newest G-1 Extreme with the gold trigger installed better than that gun. It  shoots faster, and cocks easier, all with only a quick clean and home lube and polish using the original factory guts. To be honest,  I did shoot the 320 about 3000 times, over about two years, before the spring broke. I then tuned it with a maccari spring kit and seal myself. It only likes CPL's now.  My R-10 on the other hand , will not shoot anything but CPH's and Crow mags well. Does dime sized five shot groups with the crow mags at twenty-five yards  rested, when I do my part. It has not been tuned and is been giving  service since 1986, when it was bought new. It does 820fps with the crow mags, according to my old Pact crony.

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Wasn't trying to be one of the" many experts"
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2008, 03:58:31 PM »
I can see where you are coming from n300n and am sorry if I came across that way. Just thought I'd throw out some of my  own thoughts on the question asked.  I too, am also still a student and have much to learn about the "BB guns". If I knew it all , I'd find something else to fool with. I also believe though ,that if you are brave enough to write down some thoughts on a public forum ,then you are entitled to your own opinion.  By the way, I think that this is a good forum with a lot of information and advice that has  also helped me.