Author Topic: First Forray into the Darkside - B-51 Mods  (Read 9958 times)

Offline daved

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RE: I Spoke Too Soon
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2008, 02:38:15 AM »
Hey, Scott, what are you shooting for pellets?  Reason I ask, I get the same thing with Crosman Premiers, and I know damn well it's pellet variation.  Even with the Premiers in the box, you'll get a  (un)fair number of under or over sized pellets.  So if you're shooting Premiers, try something else, maybe JSB Exacts or Kodiak/Barracuda Match.  My B50 (that Dan originally owned) liked the Premier Heavies, and did the same thing.  Nice write up, BTW, and good luck.

Dave

Offline scottinharwood

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RE: I Spoke Too Soon
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2008, 02:44:18 AM »
Thanks Dave, I will try some of my others, I have collected quite a few types ver the years, but keep seeming to come back to CPH's

I have some JSB Exacts, and some RWS plus others.

My AA S400 E loves the CPH's.

I will let you all know.

Scott
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline spysir

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low spikes
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 03:29:00 AM »
in fps might be due to, lube on the hammer (run it DRY), your rubber shims if that's what you are still using, VACCUM behind the hammer if the safety screw is still there, the sear spring being to strong (factory), and naturally, other...... .
 I have the one in the "BOOK" with the 2mm shortened hammer, works really nice, 2000psi fill when stricker screw is set flush w/Mc spring and a shim in the END CAP which avoids adding hammer weight (shim must be hollow in the center for the spring guide to clear.  Skip screw #52 (?) as it seems you have. Use a cut Bic pen spring for the sear/trigger springs, elimineates drag and allows a 7 ounce pull, new trigger blades are indeed $5.00 from Xisico, they would be happy to sell you another stock hammer spring (and/or just aboput any part you might want) cheap and fast. The stock barrels are really good if re-crowned and cost maybe $60.00 for a reciever/barrel unit. Dont change/mess with the valve/striker return spring unless you need a TON of power with a very low shot count. Also check the brass retaining nut and o-ring on the valve stem (relates to low fps spikes) sometimes it just does that when the air hits that o-ring just right. A better idea is to thread a peice of delron and replace that brass retainer AND o-ring with that.
 Looks like you have done a pretty nice job of tuning it up yourself, a great airgun to learn on.
And as it seemed you had a pic of two airguns there somewhere I though I would post ours again,


 Keep us posted on your finishing touch's.

  John

Offline scottinharwood

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RE: low spikes
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2008, 03:47:17 AM »
Thank you John, I really appreciate the info and those are some way-cool looking guns.  I am running the hammer wet, I will dry it out.

Not sure about the statement you made: "Also check the brass retaining nut and o-ring on the valve stem (relates to low fps spikes) sometimes it just does that when the air hits that o-ring just right. A better idea is to thread a peice of delron and replace that brass retainer AND o-ring with that."

Are you talking about the retainer and o-ring for the valve stem that the hammer strikes against to release the puff of air?

I shot 9 5-shot strings on the attached picture.  Started on lower left target to zero, then went left to right and up.  The upper left shot pattern is with my AA S400 EX using the same JSP Exact pellets (per the last poster's suggestions of moving off of the CPH's).  From that I am pretty sure I understand the sight picture and have my hold correct.

I have some close up photos of the crown, its a rough looking grind so I am sure that may account for the flyers you see in the pics; the AA S400 single-holed all five.  I have a couple of e-mails into BigEd one of which includes my thought about replacing the barrel with a 25" LW.  But only if I can get the FPS pretty constant for a given pressure range.

All shot were from 12.5m (my basement, table saw to wall distance), pellets lubed with FP-10.

Any idea of what the weight of the JSB Exacts are, looks like the same can that is in your photo.
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline scottinharwood

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Target Image from last post
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2008, 03:50:16 AM »
Whoops, here is the correct picture
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline DanoInTx

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Re: First Forray into the Darkside - B-51 Mods
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2008, 03:52:11 AM »
I use a rest when I shoot over my chrony, it's the only way to make sure it's the same every time.  When you shoot at a slight angle you are in fact changing the distance the pellet has to travel between the sensors.  The slight angle might not seem like much, but when you are measure FPS within a space that's only maybe a foot and a half it's easy to scew the results from inaccurate rifle positioning.  See pic:



As for the inconsistancy I agree completely with John(Spysir) below.  John was fiddling with these before I knew what they were.....he actually mailed me my first Mcmaster Carr spring:)
Dan

Current shooters: Beeman HW97K .177 with Hawke Eclipse 4x16x50SFAO and Steve C. stock, Beeman R9 .177 with Hawke Airmax 4-12x40AO and Gene\'s Midas touch, Air Arms S200 with Bushnell Banner 6x24x40AO Rowan brass bling and Steve C. custom stock, BAM B25, BAM B40 .177 with BSA 3x12x44AO, Benjamin Marauder .22, Benjamin 397 pumper.

\"repeat this mantra:
Air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzzz!!!  ...You will feel better\" T.E.C.2008

Offline spysir

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right
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2008, 04:51:43 AM »
"Are you talking about the retainer and o-ring for the valve stem that the hammer strikes against to release the puff of air?"  It is a problem spot, just not a great design.
 Here is a graph from ChrisK just to show what a Bam will do:

 And a target with a long LW barrel, all five shot groups off a 2000psi fill at 30 yards:

 But what really impressed me is the groups a stock cut and crowned Bam barrel makes, I have in my mind Dan might have a picture of some of those?

  John

Offline DanoInTx

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RE: right
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2008, 09:03:19 AM »
Quote
spysir - 9/7/2008  11:51 AM
.........But what really impressed me is the groups a stock cut and crowned Bam barrel makes, I have in my mind Dan might have a picture of some of those?


I quit shooting mine, it was a waste of targets.  Now if I could find targets that were as big as a thumbtac head, then maybe I'd shoot it more, but right now it only makes one tiny .177 hole and that is just no fun:)

Big Ed said that my recrowned stock barrel was good enough where I wouldn't see any improvement by buying an LW to replace it, I tend to agree.  

Here's a 34 shot string from a 1700 psi fill.... I refilled at 1200psi.  I was shooting CP Heavies.



This was when the gun was brand new, I would guess that it has smoothed out a little now that I have some shots through it, but I probably wont chrony it again as I am pretty happy with the results.

Take care,
Dan

Current shooters: Beeman HW97K .177 with Hawke Eclipse 4x16x50SFAO and Steve C. stock, Beeman R9 .177 with Hawke Airmax 4-12x40AO and Gene\'s Midas touch, Air Arms S200 with Bushnell Banner 6x24x40AO Rowan brass bling and Steve C. custom stock, BAM B25, BAM B40 .177 with BSA 3x12x44AO, Benjamin Marauder .22, Benjamin 397 pumper.

\"repeat this mantra:
Air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzzz!!!  ...You will feel better\" T.E.C.2008

Offline scottinharwood

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RE: right
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2008, 10:26:32 AM »
Hey Dano,

My chrony plot pretty much just goes down hill.  Starting at 1700 to 1000 over 50 shots.

From about 930 to about 850 fps.  Have not yet re-opened to dry off the hammer.  When I do, I will polish the inside f the hammer tube, I only cleaned it the other day.

Scott
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline scottinharwood

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A Sucess for the Darkside - B-51 Mods
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 02:55:29 PM »
Ok, here it is, probably the final entry for my B-51 tune up using ‘The Book’.
When last we saw our hero, he was very frustrated in that his shot string had a pretty much straight down-hill slope and there were sporadic  (8 shots out of 50) in which the muzzle velocity of the Crosman Premier Heavies (10.5gr) dropped by about 100fps from the general string run of values.  Not good said our hero and he sought greater wisdom from the ancients (the Darkside Forum experienced tuner’s).

Our hero received many great and timely comments and suggestions.  The wise ancients, DanoInTx NS SpySir bestowed the latest leafs of wisdom on our hero and the result was a shot string that was perfect from our hero’s goal in the B-51 tune up process in the first place.

As you will recall, our hero sought wisdom on the B-51 tune up from the Darkside forum and stumbled upon ‘The Book’ in which much wisdom be many ancients was inscribed.  Our hero jumped in, feet first and brain last, and managed to obtain a gun that shot in the mid-600’s fps.

Our hero followed ‘The Book’ in that he dissembled the B-51, dissembled the trigger assembly and hammer spring mechanism and modified or replaced various components.  On inspection, our hero found that the cocking bolt mechanism was a bit stiff and gritty feeling.  Also, on removing the breech, our hero found that the top transfer port o-ring had about 25% of its ring missing (no bits and pieces laying about, just missing.  On inspection of the lower transfer port o-ring, our hero found that this o-ring had a classic failure indication, a concentric split on the inside diameter of the o-ring (a typical failure found in AA S400 breech seal o-rings).  Additionally, our hero found that the breech screws were not very tight.  Finally the bolt probe o-ring was worn looking.

The first step that our hero took was to clean the barrel and breech since he could run a bore snake all the way through both the barrel and the breech bolt areas at once.  Goof-Off on a pad run through 3 or 4 times finally came out clean.  Our hero then used a bore mop soaked in bore oil to lube up the gun bore (not the breech).
Our hero then polished the bolt and used  white grease from Maccari to put a light coat of lubricant on the bolt.  Polishing the bolt was accomplished by lightly sanding with oiled 600-grit wet-dry sand paper followed by oiled 1000-grti sandpaper.

Then came the hammer and hammer striker.  Our hero chocked the hammer into his wood lathe and used the same 600-grit and 1000-grit oiled sandpaper to polish the hammer mechanism, paying particular attention to the grooved area of the hammer where the trigger sear must engage and smoothly disengage.  Also, our hero polished the spring guide and the inside of the hammer so that the spring guide would turn smoothly in the hammer when the gun was cocked and fired (the spring wants to rotate).   Since our hero was replacing the stock hammer spring with a less stiff McMaster Carr spring (ala ‘The Book’) he turned in the hammer striker inward screw so about a millimeter of the striker screw would be exposed.  He did this knowing the hammer spring change would give velocities in the 700’s rather than his desired roughly 900 fps.  Increase the travel, increase the momentum and hence the strike force on the discharge valve stem and a higher resulting velocity.

Our hero then committed a big mistake; he used a thin coat of white grease lube on the hammer and hammer chamber.
Finally, our hero used a diamond stone and 1000-grit oiled-sandpaper to polish the trigger surfaces that would come into rubbing contact with other trigger or hammer components.  Then he used that wonderful white grease to lube all trigger rub and pivot points.

Upon reassembly, our hero tried a fill to 2000# and fired a shot off, the pellet did not even come out of the barrel – oops, I had gas lock due to the low tension McMaster Carr spring.  DanoInTx warned me he had had valve lock at 2300 psi on his first try and our hero thought 2000 psi would be low enough – no dice.  Additionally, on assembly, our hero was very careful with the safety spring and ball bearing, so careful, he lost them while trying to rotate the safety during reassembly – he should have used the plastic bag method mentioned in ‘The Book’.

Our hero then slowly bled down the reservoir pressure to 1700# and was able to get a pellet to fire out the barrel.  Unfortunately, our hero could easily follow the pellet trajectory and watch it arc gracefully up and then down to hit the floor well before the target 12.5m away.  Hmmm, maybe I need a little more spring tension (remember that grease on the hammer?  Don’t forget it now).
Our hero then opened the breech assembly one more time and decided to add three -111 sized o-rings on the spring guide to pre-tension the spring a bit more.  Comments abounded from the wise ancients about the possibility that these o-rings would wear out and that an annular spacer in the breech plug or stacked metal washers on the spring guide might be better – our hero had o-rings, and they were handy.

Upon re-testing the gun, by sound, our hero noticed a definite increase in pellet velocity – oh boy, now we are getting somewhere.  

Our hero then charged the gun up to 1900 psi and started firing off pellets over his Beta Chrony.  The shot strings, to say the least, were not impressive.  The velocities started out in the low 600’s and climbed through 800. Our hero checked the fill pressure on his Hill pump and found it to be about  1700. The shot string looked good initially, but our hero noticed every few shots the velocities would drop by about 100 fps – not good (remember that lube in the hammer chamber?).

Now, our hero starts shooting round after round over his Chrony then realizes he is not being consistent in his angle over the Chrony.  He changes and tries to free-hold more consistently but there are still ups and downs in the shot string velocities.

Frustrated, before stopping for the day, our hero dumps a bunch of 3in1 oil into the hammer chanber to reduce friction – so he thought.  He fired off one more string of twenty and saw even worse up and down results.  Our hero, beaten and bleeding, stops for the day and starts crying for help from the ancients at the Darkside Forum.

SpySir comes to the rescue the following day and tells our hero that lube in the hammer chamber is not a good thing – vacuum can build up behind the moving hammer, slowing it down unpredictably – can our hero get a big Duh-Huh!.

The next day, after our hero has a headache from beating his head against the wall, he opens his B-51 for the 4th time and cleans out the hammer cylinder and polishes it with both oiled 600-grit and 1000-grit sandpaper.  He then cleans and dries both the chamber and the hammer assembly and puts on and then polishes off a coat of Molly Paste.  Noting that his shots had a high of over 930 fps, our hero then removed one of the three o-rings he placed at the base of the spring guide to put more tension on the hammer spring; thus, he hoped, reducing the shot velocity to a value closer to the proverbial 900 fps he desired.

Our hero then re-assembled his B-51 and in the process replaces, again, the transfer valve o-rings and the bolt o-ring.  He noticed that on his last assembly that the breech block did not sit uniformly (side to side) on the pressure chamber – be careful to alternately tighten the two forward screws while insuring that the seam on both sides of the breech is uniform.  
Our hero then fills the gun to 1750psi and shoots off one shot – it sounds good and hard.  He then sets up sand bags for his B-51 so that the placement of the gun relative to the Chrony will not change from shot to shot (he’s learning!) and he begins shooting and logging his shot strings (again – man this part is boring).

The results are impressive (at least to our un-tutored hero).  Our hero wanted a string of consistent shots around 900 fps with 10.5gr Crosman Premier heavies with a fill pressure lower than the breath-taking 2700psi he was using.  The shot strings started out at 854 fps gradually went up to 912 fps then gradually down to 859 fps in a 50-shot string, success at last - as follows:

Begin Fill Pressure:   1700                     
End Fill Pressure:   1100                     
                           
Shot No.   Velocity   Shot No.   Velocity   Shot No.   Velocity   Shot No.   Velocity   Shot No.   Velocity
1   854.1   11   892.2   21   911.3   31   903.7   41   882.2
2   858.7   12   895.3   22   908.8   32   896.0   42   880.1
3   865.0   13   896.3   23   912.4   33   898.5   43   875.9
4   876.2   14   904.0   24   908.0   34   898.5   44   877.5
5   869.0   15   901.4   25   908.9   35   896.3   45   868.9
6   882.4   16   907.6   26   907.6   36   892.8   46   870.3
7   879.4   17   903.4   27   909.3   37   896.2   47   866.4
8   879.4   18   907.2   28   907.6   38   891.4   48   867.4
9   881.5   19   906.8   29   905.5   39   889.4   49   858.9
10   890.0   20   910.1   30   905.1   40   884.0   50   859.6
Hi   890.0   Hi   910.1   Hi   912.4   Hi   903.7   Hi   882.2
Lo   854.1   Lo   892.2   Lo   905.1   Lo   884.0   Lo   858.9
Ave   873.6   Ave   902.4   Ave   908.5   Ave   894.7   Ave   870.7
Es   35.9   Es   17.9   Es   7.3   Es   19.7   Es   23.3
Sd   11.5   Sd   6.0   Sd   2.3   Sd   5.5   Sd   8.1

Our hero thinks that now he has an easy-pumping gun that requires only a 1700psi fill for 40 good, moderately high power shots.
Now, on a serious note, my thanks to all those at the Darkside Forum that gave such good support and provided such great inputs and suggestions.  I am happy where I am at on this tune.  Now, I think I do need a barrel re-crown to get close to the AA S400 one-hole strings that I can get on a good day.

Special thanks to:

Dan (DanoInTx) and John (SpySir) – this forum is the greatest!

Scott in Harwood (our hero).


AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline melloroadman

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CONGRADULATIONS
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2008, 03:14:31 PM »
Scott persistence is a good trait to have and I am glad you won the battle . But do not forget the lesson about lube on the hammer when you get started on the Discovery . I have tried it and unless it is a super light smear of white lube or dry lube it will cause hammer drag as well. I have followed many unhappy Discovery owners stores about velocity drop after doing a trigger mod but most of them have caused this pour performance them selves by lubing the hammer  . Marvin

Offline scottinharwood

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RE: CONGRADULATIONS
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2008, 10:27:12 PM »
Ohh, Marvin you must omniscient, I was just thinging of doing my Discovery.  I already did the lower link mod on it and I have an e-mail request into BigEd for the super sear, HDD and power adjuster set up.

I will remember, no lube or, as I did here (finally) a coat of molly then wipe it off for some minimal corrosion protection.

I think I am addicted to the Darkside now (cue the scarey music in the background).

Scott
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline scottinharwood

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RE: A Sucess for the Darkside - B-51 Mods
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2008, 10:38:59 PM »
Boy, I can tell I was tired when I wrote that one, lots of typo's and english problems.

Sorry all.

Scott
AA S400Xtra 0.177, BAM B51 0.177, Crosman Discovery 0.22, IZH M-46, RWS-54 0.177, Crosman 1377C, Crosman Storm XT

Air Gun Tuner\'s Motto, \"At least do no harm to the existing airgun accuracy and power!\"

Offline melloroadman

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SCOTT CHECK YOUR PM N/T
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2008, 07:35:48 AM »
N/T

Offline DanoInTx

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Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2008, 11:23:41 AM »
Looks like you win!  

Glad I could help:)
Dan

Current shooters: Beeman HW97K .177 with Hawke Eclipse 4x16x50SFAO and Steve C. stock, Beeman R9 .177 with Hawke Airmax 4-12x40AO and Gene\'s Midas touch, Air Arms S200 with Bushnell Banner 6x24x40AO Rowan brass bling and Steve C. custom stock, BAM B25, BAM B40 .177 with BSA 3x12x44AO, Benjamin Marauder .22, Benjamin 397 pumper.

\"repeat this mantra:
Air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzz, air gunzzzzzzz!!!  ...You will feel better\" T.E.C.2008