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Author Topic: What's the most powerful & accurate in .22 or .177?  (Read 18922 times)
Oreo
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« on: August 24, 2008, 03:12:08 AM »

Hey guys, I'm new here so please forgive if this comes up all the time.

What's the most powerful & accurate air rifle in .22 or .177 cal?  I much prefer under-lever designs 'cause I don't trust break-barrels to hold zero to a scope- unless you guys tell me that's not an issue.

Thanks!
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daved
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 03:39:47 AM »

Actually, it's NOT an issue.  At least not from my experience.  I bought my first rifle, a CFX, on that assumption, and later learned from first hand experience how wrong I was.  So don't let that limit your choices.  Also, if you want power, I assume you're intended use is hunting.  A break barrel will always be quicker to load for a follow up shot.

Most powerful in no particular order:
Beeman Kodiak, RX-2
RWS 350, 48/52, 54, 460
Gamo 1250 (currently only available in .177, I believe)
Baikal MP 514(?), not sure if that's the right model number

I'm sure there are others, but these are the ones that come to mind.  Most are available in .177 and .22, some in .20 and .25.  I believe all have a reputation for good accuracy, but inherent in the design is a high likelihood of hold sensitivity.  Also keep in mind that power is relative.  A powerful spring piston might get close to 30 fpe, and will be a real bear to cock and shoot well.  My .177 AA S400E does 27 fpe with 16 gr. Eun Jins, my Talon can do over 50.  And a .22 LR is 100 fpe +.  Think about what you want an air rifle, or any rifle for that matter, to do, what your intended use is.  As newbies, most of us get a case of magnumitis sooner or later.  If you're new to air guns, I strongly advise making it later.  You'll be much happier with a medium powered springer as a starter gun.  The CFX I mentioned at the beginning I consider an excellent choice, but it will need additional work to make it really nice.  For out of the box, the Beeman and RWS guns are hard to beat, and the cost ends up being comparable to a lesser gun with tune and trigger.  Also remember, most of the velocity claims are sales hype, and are usually inflated over reality by 10-20% at least.  So a "1000 fps" gun is really only going to do low to mid 800's with typical pellets.  Finally, high velocity and pellets don't go together.  Get close to Mach 1 with a pellet, and watch your accuracy go to hell.  It's inherent in the design, think badminton birdie, it relies on the drag of the wide skirt to keep it stable.

I hope this was some help, and welcome to the GTA!  If you have any more questions, you're in the right place.  Later.

Dave
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daveshoot
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 03:55:57 AM »

It is actually Baikal MP513 that is the powerhouse. The 514 is the very futuristic looking top cocker, but velocities are like a third those of the more traditional MP513.

Walther Falcon Hunter (Hatsan 125) is a new entry in the springer mega-mag class. It shoots normal weight .22s in the 900 fps ranges.

Both are break barrels and I would agree with daved that this is not an issue, with a gun in good repair. Some might argue that break barrels are (or seem) a little safer than loading port designs, as they keep the fingers out of harm's way.

I suppose when you add "...and accurate" you would expect the German guns to excel. I have had great luck with the Baikal and jury is still out on the WFH, but they are built to a different standard, and price point. If an extra quarter inch tighter group is worth the extra $$$ that would be worth keeping in mind. OTOH, the Turkish and Russian barrels don't droop!
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Steroid Sheridan rocker, Daisy 990, SS1000, B26-2, QB-57, Crosman 150 (TW), Crosman 1377 x 2,  RWS5G, MP513, IZH53, RWS9N/Cometa, MP661k Drozd, Walther Falcon Hunter, RWS 34 Panther, XS-B3-1, Cummins B3s, RWS94 Cometa x 2, RWS48, Beeman R7, Daisy Avanti 853, RWS92 Cometa 220, Beeman P3, IZH-46M x 2, Daisy Avanti 747, Diana 24, B5-10, BSA Lightning .22, Crosman Marauder #39 .22, Crosman 1322 Phase 1, Diana Model 20, HW70, Shin Sung Dragon Slayer .50, Haenel Model 26, Slavia 620, HW45/.177
Oreo
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 04:00:32 AM »

I was originally looking at the RWS 460.  Seems like a nice rifle, but there are a few on your list I haven't checked out yet.

What is "hold sensitivity"?

I'm just looking for a fun gun, so I want something I can satisfy my boyish craving for destruction with.  Is there any way to hotrod these things to get more power from them?  Can I put a stronger spring in or something like that?  What about buying a .25cal version & swapping a .22cal barrel for more oomph?
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airgun/cuz
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 04:29:39 AM »

First & Foremost, WELCOME TO GTA! I had the Kodiak & Patriot as well as the 1250 HUNTER & HUNTER EXTREME,All extremeley powerefull & accurate,I prefer the THEOBEN ELIMINATOR/BEEMAN CROW MAGNUN, Two of the most powerfull break-barrel rifles you will find,both extremely accurate with a quick shot cycle,they operate with the Gas-Ram system oppose to the spring system....I had my WEBLEY PATRIOT converted to the THEOBEN GAS-RAM H.E. SYSTEM, it is a much nicer gun & easier to shoot accurate....I guess it's just a matter of taste....GOOD LUCK with your selection!
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 05:52:56 AM »



Welcome to the GTA Forums Jason,



It's good to have you here, You have found A GREAT PLACE TO BE !



Now that you are part of the GTA Family, I hope to see you here often !



As for your question, If you give a price range, it would make it easier to reply too.



You can start with Chinese models, or go to a Gamo CFX, a fine and accurate rifle, then you could go to the fine Air Arms Under leavers or Beeman HW 77 or 97 air rifles ? So many air rifles, so little time and money !



I'm sure you will enjoy selecting a new air rifle underlever, and if you pick a price range, that will help with the selection !



Hope to see your post soon !



Bill

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Oreo
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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »

Well, I intentionally left the price range open 'cause I wanted to know what was out there.  But I'll try & narrow it down for you...

First, when I say accurate I'm not looking for one of those ultra-precision competition models that look like something out of a transformers movie.  And I'm also not looking for a PCP.  I'm looking for the absolute best quality & most powerful air rifle similar to the form of the Gamo's or RWS 460.  Beyond that, anything more then $1500 is out of the question.  $600 or less is really what I'd be likely to actually spend though unless there was a HELL of an airgun at those higher prices. This gun isn't going to be manhandled or left exposed to the elements, but I don't want something fragile either.

I'd say, I'd like to put a hurtin' on soda cans at 100 yards with a decent 4-12x scope.  If I could get a typical Crossman wadcutter lead pellet .22 up to 900-1000fps & accurate enough to hit soda cans at 100 yards... I'd be a happy happy man.

How's that?
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Oreo
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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2008, 07:09:18 AM »

How about the Theoben SLR.  They say 18 ft lbs.  How's that translate to speed for a .22 pellet?

See, this is an expensive air gun but I like it's features.  Underlever, ease of loading with a 17rd mag, & has that fancy air-ram system you mentioned.
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PeakChick
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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 07:22:24 AM »

Given what you think you'd like to do, range, accuracy, power, etc............. Buy a good .22 LR. You are really stretching what can and should be expected of an air rifle, particularly a spring or gas ram powered one. The performance expectations you cited would be hard pressed to be acheived with a high end, powerful PCP air rifle.
Buy a nice CZ .22 LR or .17 HRM powder burner and be happy.
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The current stable, (arsenal, quiver?): BSA Lightning XL .177, BSA Sportsman HV .22, BSA Ultra .177, CZ634 .177, Daystate Harrier X .177, TAU 200 Senior .177, HW 97 .177, HW 50s .177, HW 30 .177, RWS 92 .177, Gamo 126 MC Super, Gamo Big Cat .177, AR2078A, QB78 .177, Quest 1000 .177, Beeman SS650 .177., Beeman P17 .177.
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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 07:40:57 AM »

Welcome to GTA. If you want fun to shoot, you DON'T want a magnum springer. You'll want a mid powered springer, which opens up a much wider selection for you. You're going to have a hard time beating a Beeman R7 for a fun to shoot springer. A well tuned Baikal 512M, NOT 513, is loads of fun to shoot. Your best bet may well be a Mike Melick tuned B26.
Powerful and accurate don't go hand in hand with springers due to the increased difficulty in accurately shooting a magnum springer. Yes, they can be shot accurately, but they take a LOT more practice and experience to do so. If you want the most powerful AND most accurate rolled into one gun, you need a really nice, really expensive PCP.
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2008, 08:12:35 AM »

That would be a hell of a springer, to be able to hit pop cans at 100 yards.  My friend and I are able to consistently hit soda cans at 50 yards off of a bench, with an occasional miss.  To double that range would be something to see.  I'm not saying it can't be done, but our guns (especially mine) is very hold sensitive.

Good luck.
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2009 air rifle kills
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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2008, 10:55:06 AM »

What you're asking for is unreasonable to expect from a springer.  Not saying it can't be done, I know a couple of guys that shoot 350's at 80 yards and hit what they're shooting at.  But it's well beyond what they were designed to do, and expecting that kind of performance is just asking to be disappointed and PO'd.  I don't think I could do that consistently with my PCP's, and I'm pretty damn good.  I suggest you go back and reread my first response :-).  Good luck.  

Almost forgot, hold sensitivity is something peculiar to spring piston air guns.  You have to learn the proper hold technique if you ever hope to be any good with a springer.  Most of them require a very light hold, allowing the rifle to move around the way it wants to.  Do it right, and you'll be consistent.  Do it wrong, and you'll never get good groups.  Some rifles are more sensitive than others, and the magnums tend to be some of the worst.  Again, it's inherent in the design, and the more powerful, the worse it tends to be.  Check the library, there are a couple of very good articles about hold sensitivity and technique.  Later.

Dave
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Oreo
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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2008, 10:34:40 PM »

Well, the truth is I don't know what's reasonable to expect.  I just know that within the class of rifle I described I'm looking for the best one.  I'll be happy with what ever performance it can deliver.

With that said, I used to hit soda cans at 100yards with a Powerline 880 & a 4x scope.  Granted, it wasn't easy, & probably had as much to do with luck as it did accuracy.  But that was what made it fun.  At full power, that rifle would put a BB into a soda can, but not out the other side.  

SO... I know it can be done with a springer or this gas ram system I've never heard of.  A 12x scope should simplify the task greatly.

Or do you guys just think I'm crazy for even suggesting such a notion?
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Joe D
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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2008, 11:20:52 PM »

It all depends on how much you want to spend. Any air rifle that shoots a .177 pellet over 1000 fps is fast enough for me. My $49 Daisy 1000 and Hammerli Titan will both shoot over 1000 fps. A good trigger is more important than a few more fps. The Titan/AR1000 has an excellent trigger.
I was shooting in my basement range yesterday with the Titan. If you want a real challenge try shooting empty 9mm brass at 20+ yds off hand.
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TCups
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2008, 12:50:48 AM »

Welcome Jason.

Your question is a reasonable one, except that for air gunners, you might as well be asking "what is the meaning of life?"  There seem to be dozens of "right answers" that depend entirely on the shooter, skill and personal preferences, how much $ is available, how much weight one is willing to lug around, and philosophy of "shoot it out of the box" vs. "tune/modify it immediately", and what you intend to shoot (paper, varmints) and kill (time, money, varmints).

Don't look to pure velocity as the best indicator.  Manufacture's advertised velocities are almost always overstated and even when accurate, are with pellets so light that, with springers in particular, it is probably harmful to the air rifle to shoot them. -- almost like dry firing a springer.  The better indicator is foot-pounds of energy (FPE) rather than velocity in feet per second (FPS).  But even then, there are always more factors to consider, probably most importantly, what type of power plant do you want -- springer, CO2, compressed air (CA)?

In general, remember that most will want to scope the rifle, which adds additional cost after the purchase.  I have found that it is usually better to buy a gun un-scoped, and then choose a decent quality scope and mounts separately.  Many (not all) of the "package deals" sell you a low-end scope that won't hold up for very long, particularly with a springer and may be less quality optics than you really want.

I have begun to think about my air rifles in two categories that I find most useful:  1. Accuracy, and 2. FPE per dollar spent.  To seriously assess these, you have to be able to shoot the rifle, because, as they say, individual results may vary, and you have to have a chronometer to measure the velocity and calculate the pellet energy.  But it is not always the fastest or most energetic pellet that shoots best in a given air gun.  If you plan to shoot targets, perhaps competitively at 10 meters and want maximum accuracy (God help you), then expect to spend more (perhaps LOTS more) than for a decent plinker/hunter.

My opinion (and it is only an opinion, and I do not claim an expert opinion) is that long term satisfaction usually mandates a tune. So . . . here goes:

Best "starter" target rifle for the money -- Daisy 853 Avanti 177 single pump pneumatic target rifle.

Best "starter" springer air rifle for the money -  Mike Melick tuned B26.  You can get a tuned 800+ FPS, 13 FPE .177 cal or 600+ FPS, 13 FPE .22 cal  springer from Mike for under $200 shipped with a nice trigger and shooting very good groups out of the box.  With a decent scope and mounts, that "package" can be had for under $250 and you will be hard pressed to find a better deal.  Consider an RWS Panther 34 also, but the later will benefit from a good tune and take you higher in price range if you go this route.

Best "starter" CO2 air rifle for the money - Mike Melick tuned QB78.  Consider the Hammerli 850 if you might want a bolt action repeater.  Remember, CO2 guns cost more to shoot after the initial investment and in cold weather (less than 55 degrees or so) performance suffers.

Best "starter" CA air rifle -  I hear good things about the Benjamin multipumpers, particularly tuned.  Consider also a pre-charged pneumatic (PCP), like the Discovery.  But either way, you will have to pump the action, or pump the hand pump, or buy stored compressed air in the form of a scuba tank and fill apparatus, which again, adds expense.  I don't have or shoot any CA weapons, other than my single pumpers, but there are lots of "Dark Siders" who will sweetly lure you, like the Sirens, to the promise of superb accuracy and almost unlimited power.

Enjoy your Oddesy!
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