Author Topic: Hunting Law/Grey Area...  (Read 9999 times)

Offline TexasShooter72

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Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« on: September 11, 2008, 05:44:21 AM »
What follows is an email sent to Texas State Parks and Wildlife.  Not necessarily questioning state law but asking for the fundamentals that current laws were based upon.
Hopefully my numbers aren't too far off...   I think I did a decent job of covering it.  Lemme know whatcha think!

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Thankyou for your last response!  It helps alot!

I do however have an additional question.  From what is listed in the previous email and the 2008-2009 Season Guide...   "Airguns are unlawful" for hunting game animals.  Okay.  Now, there's been alot of talk about this in the airgun forum for which I am a part on the "grey area" regarding the power of some airguns.

I am not upstaging nor questioning the integrity of Texas Parks and Wildlife.

I can see where the average pellet gun(shooting 400-700 feet per second in .177 caliber @ 10-12 foot-pounds) is not appropriate for hunting purposes.  This may very well be what current law has been based upon.

The air rifles of modern day have been refined to the point of producing 20-26 foot pounds(840-990 feet per second) in .22 caliber.  Which, I might add is in the range of powder-burning rimfires.  Rimfire .22's are legal for certain pest elimination as well as for certain game(to my understanding, I may be wrong).  The .177 caliber pellet rifles have been refined to reaching up to 1100 feet per second(chrony'd) or up to 18 foot pounds.

May I ask what the current laws are based upon?  I ask, because when a .22 pellet gun can pierce a 2X4 at 30 yards it certainly speaks volumes of the guns integrity.  I am not asking that current law be changed but hold consideration for air rifles that are in a class of their own.

Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Matt
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline hodgjy

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 06:19:30 AM »
Nice letter.  I think you cover all the points without getting them angry.  Nice job.

I think you're definitely correct in both your assumptions and interpretations.  Airguns are "outlawed" for hunting purposes mainly to prevent the small proportion of idiots who would have otherwise gone into the woods with their Red Ryder to go coon hunting (or something of bigger size than a sparrow).  All the Red Ryder would do is hurt the animal and lead to suffering.  Rather than putting in language into the law that says "only air rifles with greater than 25 fpe can be used" it's best to outlaw them altogether.  There would be too much room for interpretation and selective enforcement otherwise.  Just like many states say you must use centerfire only to hunt.  Sure, a good rimfire can drop many small animals, but rather than leaving any room for negotiation, they just banned all small calibers.

Remember, laws are always written with the lowest common denominator in mind: the complete idiot.  Most hunters are intelligent, know their weapons, and know their animals.  Most would never try to use a Red Ryder to shoot a bobcat.  But there's the one idiot who would, so laws need to be made.  Is it fair?  Well, that's for another conversation.
Slavia CZ 634 .177, Crosman Quest 800 .22, and Baikal IZH 513 .22.

Offline TexasShooter72

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 06:33:05 AM »
Well thankyou so much jay for your two cents!  My numbers might be a bit off but you've very clearly pointed-out the reasoning behind such law(s).  There IS always that one idiot out there...

Thanks again for your input!  I wasn't trying to appear abraisive but was merely asking the fundamentals behind the current law(s).  I'm interested in what they come back with!

-Matt
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline TCups

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 06:39:37 AM »
Careful what you ask for.  Pointing out to those in a position to influence changes in the law that, as a class, high-powered air guns approach rim fire 22's and should be appropriate for small game hunting begs the question of which laws should be changed, the ones exempting air guns from ATF regulation, or the ones prohibiting their legal use in certain types of hunting.

Offline TexasShooter72

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 07:01:29 AM »
Good point indeed, Tommy.  I'm just curious what they'll come back with.
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline RedFeather

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 08:58:56 AM »
While your comparison to the .22lr sounds good, it points out one reason most states (if not all) limit caliber choices for certain game.  A 22lr will kill a deer but not outright nor humanely within reasonable hunting distances.  Therefore, it isn't allowed for such game.  Ditto the "hot rock" .22 center fires.  While on paper they produce some impressive FPE's, at longer ranges the smaller bullets shed power to an unacceptable level.

Pellet rifles kind of fall into this same line of thought.  At close range they can penetrate a 2x4 but you get the nimrods who want to push it to 100+ yards and then the guns don't shine as brightly.  The standard velocity 22lr has a 39 grain bullet which is nearly three times the weight of a 14.3 grain pellet.  Exiting at 1000+ fps, the 22lr has a lot more retained energy.

Don't get me wrong.  There are certainly airguns out there capable of significant FPE  It's just that they are in the minority and the regs are written with the less powerful airguns in mind.  As pointed out here and elsewhere, lobbying to have airguns admitted during certain hunting seasons runs the risk of elevating them to the perceived status of firearms.  And with that comes restrictions.

BTW, I don't think I saw a reference to what game the Texas laws exclude.  Certainly a 12 FPE pellet gun would be compentent for squirrels, doves, et cetera.

Offline TexasShooter72

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 09:53:03 AM »
Having read the responses I should've just as well asked here first.  Basically, it all comes down to the nimrods out there who try to shoot bigger game with Red Ryder velocities.  It all makes perfect sense.

Thankyou RedFeather for your input as well.  Very well worded!  All I'm going after anyway are squirrels, rabbit and the occaisional coyote.
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline Timmyj1959@yahoo.com

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 02:46:52 PM »
Matt,, "Red Feather"????? is a personal Friend of mine,, He is a GREAT person,, I hold him in HIGH RESPECT!! You & I are "REDNECKS" for shure!! LOL!! "Red Feather"  is Good People,, Not saying You implied otherwise,, just wanted to let you & all here know,,Red Feather is a Friend of mine & is a "Good Guy"!! He will not knock us Matt for Hunting we do!!LOL!!  Tim.

Offline TexasShooter72

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2008, 03:20:27 AM »
Oh...   jeeze.  Did it appear like I was rippin' somebody???  I liked what he had to say!  Very well worded thread response!  I do apologize if it appeared that I was being apprehensive.  I wasn't.  Juss a makin' conversation!

Enjoy!
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline Timmyj1959@yahoo.com

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2008, 03:42:32 AM »
Matt,, its all good Buddy you said nuthin wrong at all!! Just was sayin I have known "Red" for some time now,, he,s a pretty cool cat!!  Tim.

Offline RedFeather

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008, 04:11:58 AM »
Tim, you is one mean guard dawg.  Sic 'em!  Seriously, no offense taken, period.

Offline TexasShooter72

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008, 04:28:54 AM »
Thanks, cuzz I didn't even know I'd said anything offensive!
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Super Sport XL .177
David Slade Tuned, Theoben Gas Ram BSA Lightning XL .22
CDT Tuned Gamo Hunter Elite .177
Big Gene Tuned, Ed(Shadow)Chocolate Chip Camo Gamo Shadow 1000 .177


Offline only1harry

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Re: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008, 07:39:17 AM »
It's good to ruffle "their" feathers once in a while.  A lot of these laws were writting a very long time ago and should be revisited.  

BTW, there is no 20-26fpe gun that can penetrate a 2x4" that I know of, even from 1" distance.  My 350 .22 shoots CP's at 23.4fpe at the most.  It can only penetrate 2 1/2" plywood boards from a coule of yards away.  My Condor needs 45-46pe to penetrate a 2x4" from 6yds away with a 21gr Kodiak.  It cannot even do it at 15yds.  It takes 70+fpe to penetrate two(2) 2x4's from 6yds with a 32gr .22 pellet/slug.  

I will however try it on one 2x4 at 30yds to see what power is needed to penetrate it  :-)  
I do think my 2x4's are very hard though and may not be the norm.  They are not pine or any of the softer woods out there.  But I 'm not sure what type of wood they are but they seem to be very hardened.  My 12fpe gun only goes in like 1/4"!  My 8fpe 2240 only goes in a hair and stays stuck at the surface.  The 2x4's I use are for outdoor use.  I took them off my old (15-20yr old) pool decking when I tore the pool down a couple of years ago.  The pool was disrupting my hunting range and view so it had to go :-)  I 'm holding an 11" piece in my hands and it's almost 3lbs.  Very dense & heavy..  So it's definitely possible to easier penetrate a softer wood or pine 2x4".
Tim: any idea what kind of wood my 2x4's are?  I think my Condor could go through 3 of some other 2x4's I 've seen that looked and felt a lot softer than what I got.
Springers:
Diana 36 .177
Diana 350 .22 (donated by Timmy!)
Diana 350 .177
PCP\'s:
Air Force Condor .22 (Airhog)
Air Force Condor .25 (Talon Tunes)
Air Force Condor .25 (Lemak)  
CO2/Pump:
RWS Hammerli 850 .22
Crosman 2240 Custom .22
A few Crosman pumpers .177

Offline raterminator

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008, 08:16:15 AM »


Matt, if you remember, we hada somewhat similar thread back in July. You may also provide them info from other state laws about small game air gun hunting as well. Especially in Colorado, the guys did a very good job (check Stephanie’s post): http://www.gatewaytoairguns.com/airguns/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9653&mid=72440#M72440



That’s a good letter. Make small corrections and send it to NRA too if you are really interested in changes.


Offline spark22

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RE: Hunting Law/Grey Area...
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2008, 03:27:34 PM »
Texas allows the use of airguns for the taking of nongame animals this year. In the past it was not alowed but the laws have changed in favor of all of us how enjoy hunting small game like squirrels , prairie dogs , coyote . raccoons , foxes , skunks , frogs , turtles and so on all ya need is the hunting license check out the web site tpwd: nongame and other species to see what yo can hunt in Texas













Marauder .177                               benji discovery .22
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